Mauser-DWM Contract sales to China - Jon Speed
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Thread: Mauser-DWM Contract sales to China - Jon Speed

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    Default Mauser-DWM Contract sales to China - Jon Speed

    Jon Speed asked me to post up a series of pictures covering the Modell98 rifles contracted from Mauser Oberndorf and DWM in the pre-WWI era. The following are Jon Speed's words:

    Paul, I was going over my glass plate Image files and others for some stuff I sent John Wall years ago when he asked about China Mausers, The glass plate images I have are of the 2 Mauser firm Reference collection China Model 1907 Rifle in rare 6,8mm and Cav, carbine 1907 in 6,8mm. I had also sent John some other pics that are no longer in my files so I took some time to redo these to show more or less the Entire China 98 system arms up through 1914 in 12 pics total including the 1904-07 period pics of 3 China inspectors in Oberndorf along with Original hand ink signed Visiting card from one of these guys. Then the WFM /DWM Catalog description and color image of Rifle Model 1907 Cal. 6,8mm with Ballistic data chart showing bullet travel out to extreme ranges.

    Then a super rare 1910 Commemorative China Catalog with China text along with German text on Mauser firm history and images of the arms like C 96 that China purchased in large numbers then I have the sales chart that shows all 98 rifle and carbine sales through 1910 then 1913 order for 12,000 Rifles 6,8mm. Then notes from Cartel files that show the 12,000 rifles were turned over to German Military as WW1 started etc. All this info in 12 images. I own the Rifle 1907 Reference 6,8mm example SN 4, What is unique with these rifles is that barrel is 42mm longer than the 740mm G 98 barrel sp 782 mm total. For me way over long to carry around. Anyway, I saw a man on site talk about his China made 1907 copy so I thought maybe folks would,like to see all that John had filed away but was saving for any next edition of Ball to out it in etc, Jon

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Paul, first 4 China docs, Jon

    1. Photo of 3 China inspectors around 1904-07 period holding in fact what appear to be Model 1903 rifles with Intermediate actions with the high clip guide feature similar to the Turk 1903 in caliber 7.65, Pic is at Oberndrof shooting range. The red paper at left is original visiting note from one of these men done in ink.
    2. Special Commemorative booklet made by Mauser firm as gift to a China Commission group in 1910. The text inside describes the factory and shows Paul Mauser and some of the arms types offered like C96 and the New Model 1907 China rifle in 6,8mm. Chinese text from the German is also included
    3. Inside shows PM
    4. Image of the China rifle 6,8mm

    As result of this visit China ordered 12,000 More Rifles in 1913.
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    Paul, Here are first 2 glass plate images of Reference China arms, Jon

    1. Rifle Model designated 1907 in caliber 6,8X57. Has a Large WFM in Round form on right side of stock. The Chinese preferred the smaller calibers which had more velocity etc, What is of note here is rifle shown has a barrel of 782mm some 42mm longer than G 98. Actual production rifles had these extra long barrels and then some rifles had normal 740mm barrels. China rifles used standard length actions, its possible the China folks realized the longer rifles for their generally short men were to clumsy to carry around

    2. Model 1907 Cav, Carbine in 6,8mm. At same time Mauser used similar examples for the Paraguay Contract which used longer ring Intermediate actions, and again in 1908 for Turkish carbines. Note this China Reference carbines has a semi finished stock. The Paraguay Model has Mauser banner in right side of stock,

    All the rest of pics are of docs so will come in groups of 4 and 3 etc in 3 more EM .
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    Paul, nest 3 pics China, Jon

    1. Booklet cover for the new Model 1907 Rifle for China

    2. Inside color pic of Mauser Model 1907 in 6,8mm shown with 42mm longer barrel. The Chinese decided they did not want this length so all production versions used Standard 740mm barrels found on G 98, note the bullet flight path chart at bottom and ammo data lower right

    3. Original Mauser Sales Chart shows all China Model Rifles and Carbine in 8mm, 7mm and 6,8mm up to 1910 period. The last order came in 1913 and will be seen in next EM docs.
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    Paul, here are last 3 China story docs, Jon

    1. Yearly report shows 12,000 Rifles for China ordered

    2. Cartel 1st quarter file note shows 12,000 Model 1907 Models ordered by Mauser China Rep. Carlowitz in Hamburg. Carlowitz was a major China and Asia Exporter through WW2

    3. Cartel notes shows the 12,000 China rifle turned over the German Military who converted most of these to 8mm etc.

    I will send last EM with descriptions all the markings found on these various China 98 rifles and carbines that I have data on.
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    Paul, I thought you might like to see an Actual Cartel Contract between DWM / WFM with the 2 Main China Dealers for both firms within the Cartel group of DWM -WFM-FN-STEYR. These 2 firms handled most of the C96 and Rifle, Carbine, Ammo deals as well as other products etc.

    The Cartel was a complex organization that spent Lawyer time and money arguing with each other on who owed what, for how many and who made the deals etc. I have 5 pounds of docs just on these issues from 1898-1914. The docs are cool because all the Mauser files back up all the sales figures and shows what groups sold whatever etc etc. For DWM and FN it only shows total numbers but for Steyr it shows how many and to who which is big help for Steyr Folks.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg  


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    Default Hans Lockhoven's observations

    Paul, one more item of data on China rifles are the Markings and SN found on these so here is list from the examples I have from Lockhoven negatives he made years ago. As can be seen there is quite some variations here as Mauser used up receivers and parts on China contracts. That's all for now. Regards, Jon



    1- WFM/1907 Ring
    Cal. 7x57
    Intermediate long ring action
    Mod 04 on wall
    SN - Bu 16i

    Has the 42mm longer barrel which was dropped on all production examples. Mauser reference example



    2- WFM/1907
    Cal. 6.8
    Standard action
    Mod 04 on wall
    SN- BU 76903



    3. WFM/1907
    Cal.7x57
    Intermediate action
    Sn -BU 3946



    4. WFM/1907
    Cal.6.8
    Standard action
    blank wall
    SN-4i

    Has longer barrel. Mauser Reference example



    5. WFM /1913
    Cal.6.8
    Standard action
    Mod 1907 wall
    No SN in view

    BU proofs at wood line

    This was from last Contract in 1913 and is a Reference example. All 12,000 of these in 6.8 were taken over by German Military and re barreld to 8X57 as WW! started.



    6. WFM /1907
    Cal. 7x57
    Intermediate action
    Mod 1904 wall
    SN . BU 76697



    7. WFM / 1904
    Cal. 8X57
    Standard action
    Blank wall
    SN. BU 1009

    This was one of the run over examples from First China sale and was kept as Reference example at Mauser



    8. WFM / 1908
    Cal. 8X57
    Standard action
    Mauser Mod 1907 wall
    SN. BU 6331



    
    Last edited by SimsonSuhl; 01-10-2017 at 12:42 PM.

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    Again thank you for sharing information. I wonder what happened to John Walls files?
    mauserdad
    John 3:16 & 17 KJAV 1611
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    Nowhere else can you find this info.
    Every post I make is made with a request for corrections. I'm here to learn.

    Regards,
    Bill


    All my Mausers are here (Index is in post #1):
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?144316-Mausers-Only-Mausers

    III, GOA Life





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    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    Nowhere else can you find this info.
    Absolutely!

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    I agree and I am glad that I am not the only one that appreciates Jon Speed's time to share this with us.

    I am sure John Wall planned on using this for the next revision Bob Ball planned, but when Bob passed it was in limbo, then John Wall passed and had it not been for Jon Speed's efforts to share it here, this material (and much else) would be lost to us. Luckily, with Gunboards long history and presence, this material will be with us long after we are all gone. (hopefully)
    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    Nowhere else can you find this info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    Paul, Here are first 2 glass plate images of Reference China arms, Jon

    1. Rifle Model designated 1907 in caliber 6,8X57. Has a Large WFM in Round form on right side of stock. The Chinese preferred the smaller calibers which had more velocity etc, What is of note here is rifle shown has a barrel of 782mm some 42mm longer than G 98. Actual production rifles had these extra long barrels and then some rifles had normal 740mm barrels. China rifles used standard length actions, its possible the China folks realized the longer rifles for their generally short men were to clumsy to carry around

    2. Model 1907 Cav, Carbine in 6,8mm. At same time Mauser used similar examples for the Paraguay Contract which used longer ring Intermediate actions, and again in 1908 for Turkish carbines. Note this China Reference carbines has a semi finished stock. The Paraguay Model has Mauser banner in right side of stock,

    All the rest of pics are of docs so will come in groups of 4 and 3 etc in 3 more EM .
    Good information. Good to have confirmation that standard length actions were used.

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    I am glad it is useful, - Jon Speed sent more details about Hans Lockhoven's observations. I revised one of my posts to keep the information grouped together at top. See post #6

    Quote Originally Posted by ryg View Post
    Good information. Good to have confirmation that standard length actions were used.

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    Mr. Speed,
    As stated by others, thank you very much for taking the time to study and disseminate this information. I am curious about the mix of actions used for this contract. It sounds almost as though Mauser was using up spare parts, many that seem to be left over export rifles. This along with many of the Lockhaven examples being 7x57 was what made me curious. Was this particular to the China contract, cutting costs, or otherwise to meet specifications?
    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    The Cartel was a complex organization that spent Lawyer time and money arguing with each other on who owed what, for how many and who made the deals etc. I have 5 pounds of docs just on these issues from 1898-1914.
    I am sure this is a treasure trove, albeit boring, treasure trove of information. I am sure the dynamic of competing companies can be entertaining at times. I worked for a large German firm and the competition was fierce between companies that were all on "the same team". Even between facilities of the same concern.
    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    Luckily, with Gunboards long history and presence, this material will be with us long after we are all gone. (hopefully)
    Absolutely. And the more that is shared, the more the likelihood that it will carry on. That is the beauty of this website. When I was a child, books on Mausers were few and far between. Smith, a snippet here or there in Arms and the Man, some information in Howe, Simmons and Vickery, but nothing like the fine detailed books available today. I was stunned at a local auction a young man, 14 or 15 was looking over a 98M with his father and he was pointing out various details about the rifle, makers, markings, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    I agree and I am glad that I am not the only one that appreciates Jon Speed's time to share this with us.

    I am sure John Wall planned on using this for the next revision Bob Ball planned, but when Bob passed it was in limbo, then John Wall passed and had it not been for Jon Speed's efforts to share it here, this material (and much else) would be lost to us. Luckily, with Gunboards long history and presence, this material will be with us long after we are all gone. (hopefully)
    Absolutely. Many, many thanks to Jon Speed for the time & effort to pass all the information he has done along and yourself for getting it on here.
    Nescire autem quid ante quam natus sis acciderit, id est semper esse puerum.
    (To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child.)


    -M. Tullius Cicero

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    Default Jon Speed's comments

    Paul, a few comments on Mauser contracts. The only time a weapons specification requirement was made up was in full Contracts between Mauser and a given land. Lands had option to accept the normal range of factory specs, make any additional tests, base any level of inspectors at plant during the process etc. Turkey was the only land that had full time inspectors based in Oberndorf from 1887-1914. Turk arms have Most amount of inspection stamps of any contract. In regards to China from 1880-1914 most deals were done through China procurement reps based in and out in Germany as China was a land of War Lords with a small central government surrounded by regional Chaos. and these reps changed all the time. China more or less accepted the normal spec standards on material and parts quality used in German arms Industry. The odd China Inspector did come and stay for short periods at factory but did very little except observe the process. Even in 1938 China Bought 98k from Mauser all inspected by Germans and only the final Proof was put on by China Inspector etc. Many small deals from various lands were done through German dealers and did not go through a complicated process as most lands wanted their arms quickly so only a final acceptance stamp was applied but not in all cases. When China first bought Model 71 rifles the reps even asked for 2nd quality arms which surprised Paul Mauser and they did in fact make some small shipment designated as 2nd quality.

    As far as Cartel Competition the reps for Steyr and Mauser, DWM / FN played all sorts of games bordering on devious levels trying to secure the best deals on arms and ammo for their firms.

    It was standard Mauser firm process to use up any and all parts that could be used on various models including inventory receivers from Standard actions to Intermediate etc. Intermediate actions were use more or less as standard for the 7X57 round for Commercial sporters up through 1939 but as inventory system got depleted only Standard actions were used. Intermediate actions were first used on the 1903 Turk rifles in 7.65 and also used on Paraguay models from 1907 in 7.65 but these did not have the high clip guides etc. Ok that's all for now. Jon



    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I am curious about the mix of actions used for this contract. It sounds almost as though Mauser was using up spare parts, many that seem to be left over export rifles. This along with many of the Lockhaven examples being 7x57 was what made me curious. Was this particular to the China contract, cutting costs, or otherwise to meet specifications?

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    Well, and here now English translations of the German documents, including the text written in Chinese characters.

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    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    And here translations of the last three documents:

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    Last edited by 7x57; 01-27-2017 at 04:34 PM.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Thank you, 7x57.

    Does anyone know if these and other documents shown on this and other threads on this Forum will ever be published in book form? I assume these documents are newly discovered and not previously published.

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    Thank you sir!

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