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CG Haenel 1907 China Trials Kar88 example

5K views 23 replies 13 participants last post by  feuerwerker 
#1 ·
I came across an unusual rifle the other day and post pics here for your edification. This Kar88 in 7X57 was made by Haenel for the China trials, as I understand from a few threads on various forums. Why Haenel would think that China would buy something that they had been cloning for a decade or more is beyond me, but the times were tough in Europe in 1907, and any option to turn a buck must have been exploited. And why 7X57, when they had been using 8mm for some time? Who knows. All I know is that this is the only example of this type that I have ever seen.

Reportedly, some 2K of these were produced. About half went to China to disappear into obscurity. Some of the balance went to Mexico for the 1914 fracas, and a few hundred were surped off into the NY NY importation houses. My example is match numbered and nearly perfect in condition, more than 100 years later.

Your thoughts and comments welcome:
 

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#2 ·
And why 7X57, when they had been using 8mm for some time?

Your thoughts and comments welcome:
China changed their standard caliber from 6.8mm to 7.92mm in 1915.

Hanyang Arsenal made the first Type 88 rifles 1895. It is not known when the first Type 88 carbines were made but one is known to be dated May 1911.

From the book China's Small Arms of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) by Bin Shih (aka Firearms on Gunboards).
 
#7 ·
I bought it recently at auction. I would be interested in any information that you can share about this rifle. Is your rifle this clean? Do you know Scarletta? Would he be interested in seeing photos of mine?

The China trials announced for 1907 was the inspiration for the short run of carbines. A friend told me that they were submitted in about 1000 examples, and promptly rejected for speculable reasons. This example must have been shipped in 1914 to Bannermans in NY for resale. Things were tight in Europe just before the Great War, and any new old stock that Euro manufacturers had was being sold at any price to round up cash.
 
#6 ·
I have one of the Mexico 7mm rifles, although I don't know how you differentiate it from a commercial version produced at the time.

It is also dated 1907 with Haenel/Suhl on the receiver ring.
 
#8 ·
The CG Haenel Kar88-7mm of 1907, were a commercial venture, not connected with the China contract for the M1907 Long Rifle, competing with the Mauser M19807: Both(long) rifles were in 6,8x57 Chinese cartridge.( Steyr also offered a M1906 MS rifle in 6,8mm)
The M1908 Haenel RIFLE contained a lot of Improvements over the Original M88. The Kar88-7mm were a commercial, off the shelf venture, taken up by the Outfitters (ALFA, and AKAH) for sale into areas where 7mm was common. Mine comes from the Persian Gulf ( Capturted by an "Anti Slavery Patrol" of the Royal Navy (HMS Philomel, later HMNZS Philomel). Persia at the time used 7x57 M95 Mausers to a small degree

The Ones to Mexico were BOTH 7mm and 7,9mm as seen in a Photo of one of the revolutionary commanders with a Kar88 and Belts of 7,9 M88 ammo.

Many Kar88-7mm have come to light, usually through British gun dealers over the years ( acquired in the Middle East) I havce two which are Brit. commercial Proofed, one "Sporterised" rather Badly ( No barrel Jacket or front sight, rear sight only. on a stub of the Jacket...obviously a "Poacher's Gun".

The Chinese Trials "M1907" gave rise to the Paraguayan Haenel M1907 Rifle ( for the Military Academy...see JPS and other Posts in this regard.) in ?7,65/7,9mm? with all the Bolt and Magazine imporovements donbe on the M1907 Chinese Trials.

Doc AV

PS, the Kar88-**mm of 1907 were offered in 7x57, 7,65x53, 7,9x57, and 9x57 Calibres (ALFA Catalogue, 1911)...all suitable as "Hunting" Calibres (as well as the "Military" ones)
 
#15 ·
The Chinese Trials "M1907" gave rise to the Paraguayan Haenel M1907 Rifle ( for the Military Academy...see JPS and other Posts in this regard.) in ?7,65/7,9mm? with all the Bolt and Magazine imporovements donbe on the M1907 Chinese Trials.

Doc AV
The rifle that I have that is alleged to be a Paraguayan is 7x57.

To everyone that commented in this thread that they have Haenel rifles. I will HOPEFULLY be putting up my Haenel survey soon. It was SUPPOSED to have been finished at the beginning of the year....

justashooter, thank you for sharing! You are very fortunate to have found such a nice example. To add one additional item, the Suhl gunmakers were, as you stated, selling anything for cash. I have been told many times they had a bad habit as well of never throwing anything away. As far as I have been able to determine. Haenel was producing 88 type rifles until 1914.

Your pictures are not showing up. I think I finally figured out why? If you click reply post, then go advanced, then upload your pictures they seem to work. For whatever reason if you try to upload them in the first box they do not work. That has been my experience at least!
 
#12 ·
No I don't know him. Apparently the guy I got it from did. He was recognized at the end of the book. I thought that the rifle was the one from GB. It was offered to me also and I wanted it badly but I couldn't justify it since I already have one. Mine in not in anywhere that good shape. Mine is pretty beat and was duffle cut, but it is sweet as can be. I like it the best of all my rifles just handles really well. Now that I have it out I actually misspoke a little. Mine has the same receiver markings but the stock is different. Also the retaining nut is different. It is flared much more. I had mine rebarreled, and just kept the original for posterity. The barrel that was in it wasn't serviceable and wasn't original. I'll post some picks for comparison purposes.
 
#22 ·
#21 ·
Advice from the site Administrator, this may help with photo posting:

"there is definitely a conflict in the system somewhere, but tech has not yet been able to isolate it. It is currently only affecting the Quick Reply uploader. At the moment, the only work around is to use the full reply box ("Go Advanced") - this would be the same box you'd get posting a new thread, or Editing a post. There is the Paperclip icon, or the button "Attachment Manager" below the reply box. Both of these options are attaching images correctly, and keeping them there."

Give it a try.
 
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