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MY CZ-82 is NOT drop safe

37K views 102 replies 36 participants last post by  ABTOMAT in memoriam 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I meant to post this a while ago, but had a lot going on at the time(Grandma/Grandfather passing, etc.) First off, I'd like to start by letting it be known that I am a huge advocate of firearm safety. I grew up around firearms, have taken many firearm safety classes/courses, and am VERY strict about following ALL firearm safety rules and precautions. Like me, I know many of you like to carry the CZ-82 Makarov variant pistols. Particularly, for Winter CCW. As such, I feel a moral obligation to share this story with you. This incident took place in late October 2016.

I came home from work late one night and on the way stopped to pick up some groceries for dinner. After loading most of the groceries from my car, I remembered that I still needed to bring in my beloved CZ. It's normally on my person, but I do usually carry a backup, as well. So, sometimes it's left in the glovebox. Seeing that there were a few neighbors outside, I rolled the CZ in a towel to carry it in(Yes, I now realize this was a mistake). As I was opening the backdoor of my Jeep Cherokee(To grab the last grocery bag), I fumbled the towel and the CZ and towel dropped to the ground. I look down and all of a sudden-- BANG!!! The CZ had drop fired!! I couldn't believe it.. Worst of all it was pointed upwards and probably inches from my face(I saw the blast). I (frantically) checked my body for entry/exit wounds, but luckily had not been hit. I then took out the mag, cleared the round(Condition 4), and grabbed the now spent casing off the ground. After getting inside, I inspected the (Hornady Critical Defense FTX) casing and sure enough the firing pin had striked the primer just hard enough to detonate. I also inspected the gun and there was also a mark on the tip of hammer where it had landed just right to push down the firing pin.

I guess the lesson learned here is.. First off, never rollup your loaded firearm in a towel or shirt or really put it in ANY situation where it may not be completely secure. While an incident like this seems unlikely, all it takes is ONE time to have a freak accident and ruin yours or someone else's life. Freak accidents happen every single day people. So, there's never such a thing as being "too safe" while handling firearms. Secondly, I'm not here to tell you your CZ-82 isn't safe to carry. That's a judgement call only you can make. I'm just here to warn people and share my story. Personally, I will never again trust a gun with a free floating firing pin(And no internal safety block), to be carried with a round chambered. I know this is just one incident, but if it happens once it can happen again. Btw for those interested, I was carrying in Condition 2- (Round chambered, hammer down, safety off). In other words, I was relying on the double action first pull. From everything I had read this gun was supposed to be safe to carry this way. And yes, I do realize things probably would've been different had it been "Cocked & Locked" or Condition 1- (Round chambered, hammer back, safety on) But now I just can't trust this gun with a round chambered. For now on, I carry it Condition 3- (No round chambered, hammer down). That said, I do trust my life with my normal Makarovs in Condition 2. I hope this information is helpful and maybe prevents another incident like this from happening. Be safe, my friends.

-Mike V
 
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#57 ·
Below are some SAAMI specs for the Makarov cartridge. I don't know how officially SAAMI treats Makarov cartridges so below that are the CIP specs which should be the real standard.
If you look at dimension "E" it is 3.5 mm which is 0.138 inches. That portion of the base of the cartridge is pretty much solid brass and would probably not distort. Even at point "E" the brass is still thicker there and would resist bulging. If the case were another 0.1 inch further out of the chamber though you would probably get bulging and possibly even rupture.



 
#60 ·
Below are some SAAMI specs for the Makarov cartridge. I don't know how officially SAAMI treats Makarov cartridges so below that are the CIP specs which should be the real standard.
If you look at dimension "E" it is 3.5 mm which is 0.138 inches. That portion of the base of the cartridge is pretty much solid brass and would probably not distort. Even at point "E" the brass is still thicker there and would resist bulging. If the case were another 0.1 inch further out of the chamber though you would probably get bulging and possibly even rupture.

View attachment 1862625

View attachment 1862641
Great info! Thanks for sharing. :D
 
#58 ·
:confused:
"The pistol ejected the round, and chambered a new one. No hangups."
Now I'm really confused, how can this happen with a blow back pistol and nothing is holding the frame so the slide can move backwards eject a spent case then move forward and chamber a new round. blow back pistols are notorious for fouling up when limp wristed.
Well?????????????????????????
 
#63 ·
:confused:
"The pistol ejected the round, and chambered a new one. No hangups."
Now I'm really confused, how can this happen with a blow back pistol and nothing is holding the frame so the slide can move backwards eject a spent case then move forward and chamber a new round. blow back pistols are notorious for fouling up when limp wristed.
I don't think CZ 82 pistols are very prone to limp wrist cycling problems. The frame weight is pretty substantial along with the grip, magazine and any ammo added in. I think it would probably cycle fine without anybody holding the pistol at all. Kinda hard to actually test that.
Plus the ammo was Hornady Critical Defense FTX ammo which is good ammo, not as powerful as some Underwood or Buffalo Bore offerings but very capable of cycling a CZ 82 quite easily.
The bottom line is it did cycle so that pretty much sums it up.
 
#59 ·
^^ Look I don't have all the answers.. This gun obviously isn't suppose to do this. I decided to take your guys advice and have it looked at by a smith. Maybe he can shed some light. I also apologize for the title.. I really should have put "My CZ-82 NOT dropsafe" Your pistols all may be perfectly safe and once again it is up to you to determine. It's just when you almost blow your brains out you tend to want to caution others from doing the same.
 
#70 ·
I'm thinking maybe the force of the recoil, may allow the slide to push-off the hard surface. Like a pogo stick. Wouldn't that be cool? If everything was perfect, it could have hopped around the carport 10 or 12 times. But, I am not a scientist. And, I carry a revolver.
 
#74 ·
OK, you win. But, when you are daydreaming about how it could have happened, don't forget how much heavier the grip area would be with 11 or 12 rounds of ammo still in place, and imagine the heel as a pivot. Or, just deny it completely, that way no daydreaming required.
 
#75 ·
This thread got me looking at my CZ 82. If I cock the hammer, pull the trigger while holding the hammer, lower the hammer while holding the trigger all the way back, I am indeed able to push the hammer forward to contact the firing pin (auto hammer block safety is not engaged as the trigger is being held all the way back). If I then push the hammer all the way forward and slowly release the trigger, it catches and stops right before the auto hammer block safety engages. A slight touch to the trigger and the it snaps forward to full return. I don't carry the CZ (prefer the MaKarov with the safety engaged) and I always catch the CZ's hammer with the trigger when lowering it so I can control it with the trigger as well as my thumb. Is there a possibility the trigger could have been in this position when the pistol was dropped?
 
#77 ·
Here's some pics to show how the pistol landed. Notice the loss of finish on the hammer(Particularly, the right tip). There was even pieces of asphalt gravel in some of those grooves. Then notice the loss of finish/paint on the tail/frame and bottom edges of the slide, as well. However inconceivable, this pistol did in fact cycle from the ground.



 
#80 ·
The Polish P-64 isn't drop safe either. You either have to carry it hammer down with the safety still in full de-cock/hammer block position or hammer back and safety in between fire and de-cock which both disconnects the trigger and blocks the hammer enough to prevent a drop fire.
That is not a valid function of the decocker. If yours is doing that then there is something wrong with your decocker or it has been "worked" on.

And I would not recommend anyone carrying it in that position.
 
#79 ·
I tried the pencil test, hammer banged as stlmakguy24 did, on a carpeted surface. It feels and looks as if the pin is pushing the pencil, but it could just be bounce from the rap on the floor (lite rap, no jump of the pencil, harder rap, pencil jumps, harder rap yet, pencil jumps but no more so than with the medium hard rap. Guess one of us needs to try this test with a primed case (no powder or bullet), to really determine what is happening here.
 
#86 ·
Surprisingly, noone came outside. Which looking back is a bit disconcerting.

Update: While picking up a Beretta I won at auction, I recently had my gunsmith/ffl dealer inspect the CZ-82. He came to the conclusion that although everything mechanically works and lines up as it should(correct tolerances, functions, etc.) the pistol does indeed appear to have a design flaw that in VERY rare cases could result in an accidental dropfire. He was able to replicate the problem using the pencil test(As I did in the video). He also happened to have a 2nd CZ-82 on hand which also failed the test. He said the chances of it happening are VERY slim as it had to drop just right on the tip of the hammer spur(In order to push the hammer just a smidge forward(Yes, even with the "auto safety") as the slide/pin came backward). He also mentioned stiffer/newer springs could conceivably help, but he personally still wouldn't trust his life to it. So, take it for what it is. I was hoping it was just mine, but it appears this could potentially happen with any CZ-82/83 pistol. That said, I will continue to carry my CZ-82. Just not with one in the chamber.
 
#89 ·
Well I saw a few people up the street when I went outside, but l didnt see anyone after it happened and noone came out or said anything then or the days after. As you can imagine, I was a bit flustered. I don't see where any of that really matters though... You ask the question as if I'm on trial. Obviously, some of you think I'm a liar no matter what. It is what it is. As suggested, I took the gun to a qualified gunsmith. I really don't know what else to tell you. I had a very rare and dangerous experience. Do what you please.
 
#88 ·
CZ82s are great guns. I carry mine with one in the chamber hammer down everyday. If it drop fires it needs repaired. My safety only works with the hammer back. With this gun why would you carry it with the hammer cocked. Bought a CZ America 83. It was a piece of junk. Trigger was hard, long and gritty. Quickly sold it and started carrying the 82 again.
 
#90 ·
First I want to say I don't believe you are a troll or a liar. It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that drop tests are generally muzzle down (I have searched for California specs for the test and failed to find the actual rules, just second hand statements as to the content, something like 20 feet muzzle down). If a hard rap on the hammer could fire the gun this test would not detect it. I also have to assume that if this was a common problem there would be more instances in the record than there are. I question the pencil test as evidence, I observed your video and replicated it with my CZ and was not convinced (i will try the with the Mac with the safety on next to see if I see a like result). If one wanted to really know if a rap to the hammer would set off a round they would put an empty primed case in the chamber and repeat the test, rather than a bouncing pencil that leaves no evidence of a visible strike. That would convince that your pistol, and possibly mine, has a problem. I have little faith in a smith that would make a determination based on the pencil test.
 
#91 ·
You will not be able to replicate this with a Makarov. As there is absolutely no way of the hammer making contact wih the firing pin. Pertaining to the pencil test.. Besides observing movement, IF the firing pin does strike the pencil hard enough it will leave a small visible hole in the eraser. Although not super technical, this does prove contact.
 
#92 ·
If you drop a pencil on the floor eraser first it will bounce. If you drop it held in a gun barrel, when the gun hits the floor and stops, the pencil bounces. It works the same in the Mak with the safety on as the CZ, I tried both. Use a primed case for your test, and if it were me, I'd start looking for a better gunsmith.
 
#93 ·
I guess you missed the part about the hole in the eraser. I'm honestly done with this. I'm done doing tests or having people look at it. I now know what happened. If you don't believe me then that's fine. Or if you want to do further testing then be my guest, but I'm done.
 
#94 ·
I know I said I was done commenting on this matter but well guys thanks to members Slimjim and Akmore some new important details have now emerged. Slimjim posted this thread in the Original CZ Forum and a member there(Igrlik)posted the following information..
The CZ82 IS NOT 'Drop Safe' ! (and CZ83 too)
Was proven after some incidents by czechoslovak weapon testing authority.
It is a design flaw. After that, there was oredered police must not carry round loaded in chamber.
Falling perpendiculary on the hammer, although the "auto safety" does block the hammer from full falling, it does still come forward just a smidget. After that, inertia of the slide moves round from chamber using extractor just enough to cause ignition.
He then provided a link per request:
Czech journal Střelecká revue (Shooting revue) 6/2012 - Monograph on CZ vz. 82 under title "Sad saga of cs. pistol vz. 82" pages 52-53:

http://img10.rajce.idnes.cz/d1002/6...5db84bbce1bb90/images/Trudnsga82s52.jpg?ver=0
http://img10.rajce.idnes.cz/d1002/6...5db84bbce1bb90/images/Trudnsga82s53.jpg?ver=0
The above Czech article translated:
All thanks to friend from another czech forum:
Rana z milosti - "Coup de Grace"

During the 90’s, when police officers started carrying a round in the chamber after the level of security has taken a turn for the worse, doubts about the vz. 82’s drop safety started to surface in light of multiple accounts of drop-induced accidental discharge with severe consequences. Any deficiency in the design’s safety was initially dismissed by the Czech police management, until in 1998 in an accidental discharge following a drop, a bystander was hit in the head and gravely injured.

During the following examination of the handgun by Prague’s Institute of criminal investigation, it was experimentally proved beyond a shadow of doubt that it was entirely possible for an accidental discharge to occur after said model of firearm was dropped. (Until then, a drop safety test used to be performed in adherence to the TP-VD-637-81, which was the methodology required by the handgun’s technical documentation. The methodology, which specified a number of ways for the handgun to be dropped – all from the height of just one meter – did not cover the worst case scenario: a drop straight on the hammer.) A follow-up investigation revealed that all revisions of the handgun since the start of production were affected by the issue. Every single vz. 82, regardless of whether the hammer mechanism was pre- or post-update, in otherwise acceptable technical condition and carried in accordance with the instructions for use, for example according to the DoD regulation Děl-21-28 „9mm pistole vz. 82,“ can suffer from an accidental discharge after being dropped from a reasonable carry/use height (even less than 1m), if a round is chambered at the time.

This revelation, in light of the past accidents and other challenges faced during the service of the vz. 82 pistol, effectively sealed its service with the Czech law enforcement. Solving the issue would be complicated, among other things due to the fact many of the parts were being manufactured in a number of size categories (disconnector 1-5, sear 1-3, safety 1-4, trigger bar disconnector 1-5, rear sight 1-6) and some of the other parts weren’t interchangeable between all of the revisions of the handgun. That would necessitate the acquisition and use of a wide range of specialized tools, keeping a surplus of different spare parts in stock and employing highly qualified specialized personnel (armorers).

The decision to phase out the vz. 82 pistol from service in the Czech law enforcement (the military and the prison guard were perfectly happy to retain them in active service, and in Slovakia they’re being issued even to this day) was also influenced by the limitations of the 9mm Makarov / 9mm vz. 82 round, particularly its lower penetration and worse immediate incapacitation rate, its unimpressive accuracy and a narrow selection of bullet designs available on the market compared to the standard 9x19 round (9mm Luger). The price of the round compared to the already mass-produced 9mm Luger round was also higher. However, the outdated and obsolete vz. 82 pistols were still in the proces of being phased out by 2002, tied to the distribution of CZ 75 D Compact pistols chambered in 9mm Luger. (The adoption of which by the Czech LE was anything but smooth, but that’s a different story entirely.) A limited number of vz. 82 pistols was still in service by as late as 2008. „Between the years 2002-2008 the rearmament of the entire force was completed,“ confirmed the public relations officer of the Police presidium, Zuzana Součková. Yet according to sources close to Shooter Revue, a certain number of these handguns remains in service with the Ministry of Interior to this day.
 
#95 ·
So there it is. Now those of you who doubted me can see I was telling the truth. My gunsmith confirmed this, as well. As I mentioned before, being a HUGE fan and collector of Makarov and Makarov variant pistols, I was very relluctant to post this. However, safety is always #1 when it comes to firearms. I also feel VERY lucky to have learned a cheap lesson that just could easily have been taught with my life. I urge you all to take heed and spread the word that the CZ-83 & CZ-83 pistols are in fact not safe to carry with a round in the chamber. It frightens me to think that the next guy may not be so lucky.
 
#100 ·
Good for you. I didn't say you should be frightened. I said it frightens me to think the next guy this happens to may not be so lucky. I'll be the first to admit I made a mistake in dropping the pistol, but fact is there are many people out there carrying this same pistol who think it's safe to carry with a round chambered/safety off. Well now we know that's not the case.
 
#99 ·
"cocked and locked" just stresses me out... Eeek.. Unless I'm a cop with a holster on my hip, that just seems way too scary/risky. Even with a round in the chamber and the hammer down.. It just seems waaaay too risky, in any gun. Yes guns are tested a lot, but malfunctions can and do happen. I understand that in some situations you won't even have the split second it takes for you to rack a slide.. But hell, if those kind of situations are common in an area, I'd probably avoid it.. And yes I know that's easier said than done, but damn, I guess I'm just glad I don't live in a dangerous area.. I don't even have my CCW. I plan to get it, but damn I'll probably carry without a round in the chamber and the hammer down LOL.
 
#103 ·
I'm very glad to know that you survived this incident fully whole and healthy. It sounds like a freak accident so don't blame yourself. A prayer of thanks to God would not be a bad idea either.
This is a good reminder that while our little "toys" we collect demand care and respect in how we treat them the unexpected can still happen. Stay safe, ABTOMAT
 
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