Mauser Oberndorf's Argentine Contract - Jon Speed
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Thread: Mauser Oberndorf's Argentine Contract - Jon Speed

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    Default Mauser Oberndorf's Argentine Contract - Jon Speed

    Jon Speed wanted to share information regarding the contract Mauser conducted with Argentina, what follows is Jon Speed's words:


    Paul, Here is first pics showing Argentina Full Contract from 1937 for 2000 Carbines.

    The whole contract process requires lots of paper work for the Legal, Tech and Financial aspects.
    Multiple sets of docs from each group are hashed over By Mauser then sent to Argentina for their evaluation, then sent back with their notes then re-written, sent back for final ok them, Final write up with Signatures and Stamps. I have large files of these in which on the tech side shows all the specifications in materials, proofing, inspecting markings , costing factors, accuracy tests, pressure tests etc. On legal side shows procedures for settling issues, on financial side methods of payment and penalties if things go wrong etc etc. On top of all this is the translation requirements that need to be checked out and at least 3 copies made up with all signatures in Language of buyer land and 3 in German. Only when all this is completed does Mauser make the official Internal Factory order for the arms in question. When you see the level of Mauser internal docs in regards to materials and methods there was heated debate between engineers and machinists and material lab folks over many aspects of making various parts. It was always easier if Mauser made small deals like this one through an accepted dealer and a buyer who accepted normal German Military Arms production values. Jon

    1. Cover 1937 Argentina contract for 2000 carbines, These contracts had a Red Wax seal with Argentina Stamp and all in Spanish. The seals deteriorate and crumble away if not kept with minimal handling. This is Contract Number 3. All pages are numbered and signed off on.

    2. Inside text shows Data and costs

    3. Page from Material data shows chemistry values for barrel materials, this goes into proof testing barrel lots and final proof loads at app.5500 ATM for barrel lot testing and app.4500 ATM for final barrel test in completed carbine. Other test independent of Mauser firm can be requested, if this happens a rated facility that can handle metal testing would be agreed to etc.

    4. Photos of Final example carbine and bayonet.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg   2.jpg   3.jpg   4.jpg  
    Last edited by SimsonSuhl; 01-14-2017 at 04:06 PM.

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    Paul, next 4 pics, Jon

    1. Ballistic data chart for the 7.65 round
    2. Parts list booklet Cover. This booklet shows all basic parts list
    3. Barrel parts
    4. Bayonet parts
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg   2.jpg   3.jpg   4.jpg  

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    Paul, next 3 pics. Jon

    1. Full size Blueprint of carbine and also in Cross section etc.
    2. Mauser Internal factory order for the 2000 carbines and bayonets and other items with dates and shipping info. These carbines were shipped in Zinc lined crates of 24 units
    3. Cover of 1936 Contract for 1500 Carbines, set up in similar form without parts lists or drawings. Note the Wax Argentina Crest in good shape
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg   2.jpg   3.jpg  

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    Paul, last 2 pics. That's all for this story, In periods 1880-1900 some contracts were also done in French as the general language. The first Argentina Orders in 1933 were for Standard Modells . Jon

    1. 1936 factory order for the 1500 Carbines ( Standard Modells 1933 )
    2. 1935 factory order for 200 Carbines. (Standard Modells 1933 )

    I have preliminary orders for the 1933 Standard modells and lots of tech docs and photos in which you can see with 5x loop the actual markings on top of barrel put on these. John Wall really liked the Photos. Regards, Jon
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg   2.jpg  

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    Paul, Forgot one photo that John Wall liked so much of actual Muster example Standard Carbine 1933 that had a specical half circle mark of Argentine group that got this carbine on top of chamber area of barrel. This came out of Prelininary Files for all these contracts. Did not want to miss this one. Jon
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg  

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    Paul, In Argentine tech files I have a cool internal doc on Barrel Steels I know you will like. This is a shooting test of 200 rounds of a group of Argentine Standard Modells by head of Mauser test shooting Mr. Premaour to Mauser tech head Mr. Wirthle in 1933. It shows the actual SN on the carbines and barrel Steel types used in this group. Shows B.J. = BismarkHutte
    and Ch-40= Bhler Steel.

    Also noted in other docs Mauser would only put the group markings on barrel after Contracts were signed as first a set of Roll dies would required for this and no changes of specs on this would be allowed etc. I have lots of accuracy tests, proof tests, metal tests etc etc. Jon
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg  

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    Default Province Buenos Aires Policia

    Paul, here is the First contract in 1933 for 1000 Standard Modell and 500 of the shorter Carbines deignated as CH = Ghile = based off Chile model 1931 that was never came to Contract. These SM had on barrel the marks Province Buenos Aires Policia. The 1000 SM were SN from 2001 - 3000 while the 500 Short carbines were SN 1001-1500. I have all the charts that show how many rounds of Proof rounds, Test shooting rounds, Function test rounds were used for each group of arms. I showed John charts that showed these deals allowed Mauser to use up compatible parts from 98K, Chile inventory parts and other SM parts used on China models etc for the Argentina deals. Thats all on this subject. Thank you for efforts to get this on site. Regards, Jon
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    Paul, I also have a Argentine contract with Mauser for 10 DSM 34 .22 rifles, This has basic tech specs, financials, hand books, cartridge spec chart, full size color wall chart of DSM 34 in 3 views, List of SN etc. I used a part of this in my .22 book. All signed and stamped with Wax seal. Have the same thing for pressure test unit for 7.65. For me the tech docs in all these contracts is wonderful as every aspect of manufacture, accuracy tests, machinist issues, tooling, material issues, etc etc. Interesting also for the records of the various departments and people who were involved in these time periods, Many of these guys went on to WW2 and worked on other arms that I can track in my 98k docs etc.

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    Paul, so we are totally covered on Argentina contract aspects here is final Signing page section showing Mauser and head of Presidents Brigade. Note at bottom it shows what groups got what number contract with Mauser getting the Number 3 example. Jon
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg  

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    Paul, once I have pulled a large file like on Argentina its hard to put it away without finding the 2 page doc I sent John Wall since he asked about Mauser using up parts from other models and lots of folks questioned this activity, so here is first page that shows where many parts would be comming from for this group of 1500 Argentine Carbines etc. You can see Chile, 98k and SM both from production or in Lager = Inventory.. There were lots of left over Chile and in fact Paraguay, China SM, German SM parts etc etc. Now I have to stop and put this file away. Jon
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg  

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    If I understand correctly then there was a 1933 contract for 1000 Standard Model short rifles marked Provencia De Buenos-Aries Policia, serial numbers 2001 to 3000 and 500 short carbines, serail number 1001 to 1500 wit the short carbines never being manufactured.
    A 1935 contract for 200 type 1933 standard model short rifles (called a carbine), markings and serial numbers not designated.
    A 1936 contract for 1500 type 1933 standard model short rifles (called a carbine), markings and serial numbers not designated.
    And a 1937 contract for 2000 type 1933 standard model short rifles (called a carbine), markings and serial numbers not designated.
    Is the above correct?

    Where then does my model type 1933 short rifle with Buenos-Aires police markings, serial number 1460 fit into the above contracts? I would think the 1933 contract but the serial number does not fit.

    Thank you,

    Vlad
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 33 Left Side.JPG   Right Side.JPG   Crest.JPG   Charging Bridge.JPG   Receiver and barrel markings.JPG   Barrel Proofs.JPG  


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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    ......... Thank you for efforts to get this on site. Regards, Jon
    I agree Paul. Your work on helping Mr. Speed get this information to us is very much appreciated.

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    Thanks TP, I think Jon Speed's willingness to share these documents is very important to those specialists that focus on these variations. (and an interesting glimpse of history for the rest of us also)

    Which leads to Vlad's questions, Jon has replied to me on the questions Vlad posed, though wants to avoid a drawn out exchange. The relevant point of Jon's reply was that he doesn't study these carbines or their markings, and that he will leave it to specialists in these arms to interpret the meaning of the documents he has shared with us.

    His only purpose is to show the highlights of the actual Mauser contract for these rifles and for those familiar with them (the rifles) to interpret them. He may be able to help on a specific question that can be discovered in the contract itself, though as he stated the files are extensive and complex and his time limited.

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    Default DSM 34 Tech. Chart

    Jon, Thks a mill for the above info, its extremely enlightening and of grat interest for us Mauser collectors and admirers.
    Regarding the DSM34(of which I have around 15) topic I visited a small gun shop in the outskirts of Buenos Aires more tha 7 yrs ago and the guy had the original technical chart of the DSM34 hanging on the wall, offered the guy US$ 500, buy he did not accept my offer, I love the item, but would not pay more than 500 so I left the shop very sad, because the piece is amazing, it has the Arg. Army Arsenal stamp in the back.I took a couple of pics that Im including below.
    BTW I have a G98 that was converted to .22 by J G Anschutz ,IMO its a rare piece,at least here in Argentina, never saw a similar piece around here, whats your opinion ???









    My small collection of Argentine Crests made in late 1800s

    I am an international Gunboards patron

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    A re-read of my post comes across harsher than intended, - Jon wrote some thoughts, but characterized them as speculation and probably not helpful. Basically he said that he was not sure as this is not a rifle variation he is familiar with (studies), and that some of the comments he made may have "terminology" errors.

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    Wow ... what fantastic primary source documentation! I just love seeing things like this brought forth!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    Paul, In Argentine tech files I have a cool internal doc on Barrel Steels I know you will like. This is a shooting test of 200 rounds of a group of Argentine Standard Modells by head of Mauser test shooting Mr. Premaour to Mauser tech head Mr. Wirthle in 1933. It shows the actual SN on the carbines and barrel Steel types used in this group. Shows B.J. = BismarkHutte
    and Ch-40= Bhler Steel.

    Also noted in other docs Mauser would only put the group markings on barrel after Contracts were signed as first a set of Roll dies would required for this and no changes of specs on this would be allowed etc. I have lots of accuracy tests, proof tests, metal tests etc etc. Jon
    SimsonSuhl,

    Thank you very much for taking the time to post all of this for Jon.

    Jon,

    Thank you for taking the time to share all of this with us. I am delighted to look over all the items you post, and frequently they raise 50 more questions that send me to friends and colleagues here in the states and in Germany.

    I would like to point out one thing in particular. My family has been in manufacturing since we left Germany in the late 1800's early 1900's, and the post I quoted above particularly piques my interest. Your mention of discussion "When you see the level of Mauser internal docs in regards to materials and methods there was heated debate between engineers and machinists and material lab folks over many aspects of making various parts." is of particular interest to me. These are the items that interest me MOST about Mauser. Being a Tool & Die maker and machinist most my life I am always intrigued by Mauser's ability to provide flexible product development for customers. Granted these were not small orders, even by today's standards. Prior to the Standard Modell the amount of tooling, forging dies, setup of cam driven machines, even the time to sink and cut the stamps required for a job are incredible.

    I can understand some folks may find this subject dry, but I want to thank you, and encourage you, that any such information you wish to include will not only be appreciated, but studied in great detail.

    If you ever want to write a book on Mauser manufacturing, I would be happy to volunteer my time to assist!

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    Jon Speed has written a number of books and has been involved in dozens more, up to this very day; however Jon shares a similar background to your interest (he has a magnificent Mauser tool and machinery collection also) and Bruce and Mike's 98k book series include a significant amount of related detail regarding the technical aspects, as they relate to the 98k. Jon Speed's words follow regarding the difficulty of telling the full story regarding this (machining) in a book, a book that has to meet certain expectations of the intended audience (even the most ardent 98k collectors would probably reject a book that has 79 pages on machining a 98k, Bruce, Mike and Jon had to take a measured approach to including such information, but i am sure that they added what they felt was most relevant to the intended audience):

    I have a 79 page 98k document that shows Every machine step for every part with timing for each process as well as final assembly and test shooting etc. Sadly we have only showed one page out of this in Volume 1 but from this you can get the basics. This is he only known Full plan for any model I have ever seen. I do have the total Fritz Werner firm manufacturing docs for the Argentine 1909 model when Werner set up plant in Argentina in 1928-30 period, but this plant never got into production until much later. I have 60 pounds of bound books with blueprints, tooling, gauges etc. as well as Werner photo albums of most of the main machines, some while making certain parts etc. Hundreds of images of every type of machine etc. We used a few pics from this in Volume 1 and on bayonet making etc. The Mauser firm has offered to buy all this for their interest as all the drawings came from Mauser and DWM etc. Colin Webster also showed some of this in His outstanding book on Argentine Mauser's as there were at least 2 sets of all this as I got my set out of Argentina about 6 years ago. Regards, Jon


    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post

    If you ever want to write a book on Mauser manufacturing, I would be happy to volunteer my time to assist!

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    Hello SimsonShul,

    Really fascinating information about one of "our" Military Mauser rifles. Thank you!
    May be you, or Mr. Speed, have some information about our other "Standard Modell" era Mauser carabines, the Modelo-Mauser-1935 (exactly as written in the left side action wall). They also have the B-U-G-N with crown, in the front bridge and in the barrel, plus the Argentine crest on top of the front bridge.
    Their number was 10.000. 5000 of them were sold in the civilian market but converted by our D.G.F.M. Domingo Matheu, in "Big Game Sporting Carabines" in the 60s and 70s, in 7,65x53 and a few in 7,62x51/.308 Win. They used the original stocks shortened and somewhat "sporterized". Some "genious" at the government factory decided to clean the Argentine crest and all the German marks from the action and barrel...!!! The only original marks remainding were the serial number and the "Modelo-Mauser-1935".
    They are definitely NOT the 1933 you are talking about, and also are much more common than the 1933, as the Sporting conversion and as original ones.
    I will appreciate any information on the Modelo-Mauser-1935.

    Thank you!!

    CF

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    Hello SimsonShul,

    Really fascinating information about one of "our" Military Mauser rifles. Thank you!
    May be you, or Mr. Speed, have some information about our other "Standard Modell" era Mauser carabines, the Modelo-Mauser-1935 (exactly as written in the left side action wall). They also have the B-U-G-N with crown, in the front bridge and in the barrel, plus the Argentine crest on top of the front bridge.
    Their number was 10.000. 5000 of them were sold in the civilian market but converted by our D.G.F.M. Domingo Matheu, in "Big Game Sporting Carabines" in the 60s and 70s, in 7,65x53 and a few in 7,62x51/.308 Win. They used the original stocks shortened and somewhat "sporterized". Some "genious" at the government factory decided to clean the Argentine crest and all the German marks from the action and barrel...!!! The only original marks remaining were the serial number and the "Modelo-Mauser-1935".
    They are definitely NOT the 1933 you are talking about, and also are much more common than the 1933, as the Sporting conversion and as original ones.
    I will appreciate any information on the Modelo-Mauser-1935.

    Thank you!!

    CF

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    Sorry by my duplicated post!!!

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    Jon Speed has been looking into the Modelo-Mauser 1935, he has found very little, however I will post a few comments he has made over the last day or two, what follows is Jon Speed's words, the last relate to the document he is sharing here:

    ***I just looked again in Mauser Files see Mauser sold 200 short carbines in 1935. In Lockhoven Argentina files I found large Format BXW negs that shows this carbine with Crest on ring, Republic Argentina on right Ring and Modelo- Mauser 1935 on side wall. Carbine is BUGN proofed with SN 4154 on left ring. Its possible the 1936 and 1937 Carbines from Mauser also had those dates on side wall as I see this concept followed by Mauser on Peru SM muster examples they showed Peru folks with a 1935,and 36/37 onside walls etc.***

    ***Paul, because I found the Lockhoven Negatives showing a Modelo-Mauser 1935 Argentine carbine this pushed me into pulling out the Argentina doc file again to look into this. I found The Doc that states the term Modelo- Mauser 1935 was to be put on side wall of this batch of carbines. Since I have never seen any of the other 2 contracted in 1936 and 37 carbines I have no idea if there were changes made on these. This doc shows Mauser was ready to change a date designation or other markings if customer requested this. This 1935, 36, 37 contracts were processed by an Argentine Rep based in Paris etc. Also the Lockhoven images show a carbine that ended up as Mauser reference example !***
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg  

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    Hello Sir,

    This is the FIRST original written data about the Modelo-Mauser-1935!! Prety scarse but it is something...Great!!
    By the way, I forgot to mention, this M-M-1935 rifles do not have the Mauser crest in the rear bridge as the 1933 do. I ask me what would be the reason of that...?
    Thank you!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    Jon Speed has written a number of books and has been involved in dozens more, up to this very day; however Jon shares a similar background to your interest (he has a magnificent Mauser tool and machinery collection also) and Bruce and Mike's 98k book series include a significant amount of related detail regarding the technical aspects, as they relate to the 98k. Jon Speed's words follow regarding the difficulty of telling the full story regarding this (machining) in a book, a book that has to meet certain expectations of the intended audience (even the most ardent 98k collectors would probably reject a book that has 79 pages on machining a 98k, Bruce, Mike and Jon had to take a measured approach to including such information, but i am sure that they added what they felt was most relevant to the intended audience):

    I have a 79 page 98k document that shows Every machine step for every part with timing for each process as well as final assembly and test shooting etc. Sadly we have only showed one page out of this in Volume 1 but from this you can get the basics. This is he only known Full plan for any model I have ever seen. I do have the total Fritz Werner firm manufacturing docs for the Argentine 1909 model when Werner set up plant in Argentina in 1928-30 period, but this plant never got into production until much later. I have 60 pounds of bound books with blueprints, tooling, gauges etc. as well as Werner photo albums of most of the main machines, some while making certain parts etc. Hundreds of images of every type of machine etc. We used a few pics from this in Volume 1 and on bayonet making etc. The Mauser firm has offered to buy all this for their interest as all the drawings came from Mauser and DWM etc. Colin Webster also showed some of this in His outstanding book on Argentine Mauser's as there were at least 2 sets of all this as I got my set out of Argentina about 6 years ago. Regards, Jon
    I believe I own all of Mr. Speeds books, I may have missed one. I am anxiously waiting Mr. Baudino's book (I believe Mr. Speed helped?) and Mr. Whitley's (I believe Mr. Speed also helped?) book to come out this year. Both should be excellent additions. I have been debating between buying Storz's book on 88's or Bruce and Mike's Volume 1. I am in the middle of writing a piece on Haenel, so the 88 seems more pertinent at the moment.

    Mr. Speed, if you ever care to put a "technical" post together I would love to see it. If you ever compile a book on the manufacturing aspect I know several folks, myself included who would purchase it. Even if it is a self published text. I do understand as I have found that most collectors have no real interest in the manufacturing processes outside determining variant changes and time period. I published a short paper on the pre WWII engineering development of the M1 Garand rifle about 10 years ago, most found it to be "too technical", though that was the purpose of the research. Comparing early trials rifles one of the issues they faced was shortening the manufacturing time. Many of these changes can be seen examining Mauser's from different era's, but often times there are great changes that are not visually evident.

    I may put up a post in the commercial section (not sure where to put it?) as I have (I am sure SMALL) collection of Mauser tools, I try to collect mostly pre-WWII, but have a few post war pieces as well. Catalogs and original literature are hard to find, most was retailed under the Scherr Tumico name. I think my most used piece is a wonderful set of thread micrometers made pre- WW II. Excellent quality piece, wish I had more inserts for them.

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    Jon Speed replied regarding the Mauser Banner, that its absence is due to it not being required in the contract, - for whatever reason the Argentine authorities didn't desire or require it. He also stated the Lockhoven example lacks the Mauser Banner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodo Ferreira View Post
    Hello Sir,

    This is the FIRST original written data about the Modelo-Mauser-1935!! Prety scarse but it is something...Great!!
    By the way, I forgot to mention, this M-M-1935 rifles do not have the Mauser crest in the rear bridge as the 1933 do. I ask me what would be the reason of that...?
    Thank you!!

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    Storz book on the 88 and M71 variations are excellent books, better than his 98 book, but CGH is a topic you will need a small library to write about their small arms activities. I have extensive files on the Suhl makers, CGH included and there are dozens of little scraps in English publications, from their commercial activity (air guns) which you can piece together from Gun Report articles (1989 they had a series on air guns and target shooting and CGH is discussed at some length), to books more about the company (if you understand German Norbert Moczarski wrote a detailed pamphlet, I am sure John Walters and Gtz all have little tidbits of value, not to mention Anthony Carter regarding their bayonets, - they also made bicycles, which is common to all arms makers at one time or another), but Bruce and Mike's book has some good information regarding their early activity working with JPS (Mike in particular did some good work... he has an astonishing ability to assemble a jigsaw puzzle of seemingly unrelated observations into coherent arguments...); also Storz three books are incredibly helpful in understanding how the Suhl Consortium operated and CGH important role within. Sometime ago I wrote an article on the Consortium, a condensed version is on one of my websites. I probably wrote a couple articles that touched on either JPS or CGH in other ways, these dealing with G98 observations, but I have been writing short articles for over 10 years and the vast number of subjects are difficult to keep clear in my mind.

    Anyway, good luck with the article and do inform us of its progress. I would like to see what you come up with!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I believe I own all of Mr. Speeds books, I may have missed one. I am anxiously waiting Mr. Baudino's book (I believe Mr. Speed helped?) and Mr. Whitley's (I believe Mr. Speed also helped?) book to come out this year. Both should be excellent additions. I have been debating between buying Storz's book on 88's or Bruce and Mike's Volume 1. I am in the middle of writing a piece on Haenel, so the 88 seems more pertinent at the moment.

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    Thank you sir! Good information, as usual!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    Anyway, good luck with the article and do inform us of its progress. I would like to see what you come up with!
    Thank you, it is certainly slow going, especially without much access to primary documents. I am hoping to roll out a survey in the next few weeks. I will do a more detailed search of some of your articles. I "think" I have read all your websites.

    I came into contact with a gentleman very knowledgeable about Haenel Air rifles and he set aside a book for me written by (I believe) their production manager. I think he said the book was written in the 50's or 60's, but I have not received it yet. My German is very poor, a mix of 4 years of dozing through highschool and 4 years of serving an apprenticeship at a german firm. I can usually butcher my way through context and get a basic understanding. My wife has a degree in German, but as you probably know, technical German is a completely different language. This book about Haenel is supposed to have several pictures of the plant from several decades along with production information, and history. I am hoping for a slight bit of overlap that I can then use to apply to the firearms production.

    I recently had a packet of information sent to me. Legal documents between Sauer and Haenel quabbling about, well, I am not sure quite yet. Still working my way through them. Anything Haenel is of interest at this point. There is a lot of frame work I am still trying to establish to better understand production. Some items they seem to have made so FEW of it is difficult to tie down.

    I will stop here as I realized I am half way through a lengthy post, quite unrelated to the topic at hand! I do apologize!

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