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Polish Mauser wz.29 Research

166K views 214 replies 91 participants last post by  ryg 
#1 · (Edited)
I wanted to create a new thread here to try and shed some light on questions raised by this previous post of a Polish 1930 FB Radom Karabinek (kbk) wz.29: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=67759

Here's what we saw:
- 1930 FB Radom wz.29, s/n 6709p (8mm)
- 1930 FB Radom wz.29, s/n 7629 (.22 trainer version)
- 1930 FB Radom wz.29, s/n 7801 (8mm)
- 1930 FB Radom wz.29, s/n 8014n (8mm)

Now here's a good Polish website:
http://www.iirp.prv.pl/piechota/karabiny/kbk_29/departament_piechoty_karabiny_kbk_29.html

The Conundrum
According to this website (which is cobbled together from five different Polish books), the FB Radom factory produced just 1,000 new wz.29's in 1930, its first year of production. This is the generally accepted number in the U.S. collecting community as well. Yet we seem to have pretty clear evidence of more rifles being produced... above we see a difference of 1,305 between the low and high s/n's, with the strong possibility of even more.

What's up with these Polish serial numbers? Is it some kind of clever scheme to hide actual production figures? Or is the production several thousand rifles higher than thought?

Food for Thought
While FB Radom didn't start producing new wz.29's until 1930, Zbrojownia Nr. 2 (Armory No. 2) in Warsaw began making rifles to the wz.29 standard in 1927. These rifles were made from German K98's and parts taken as WWI reparations. The rifles, which differ only slightly in appearance from the new wz.29 but often retained original markings, were designated as the wz.98/29. Production of the wz.98/29 continued until 1933, which is probably when the German parts ran out. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any production data on them. But we do know that production was moved from Warsaw to Radom. So it's likely that by 1930, FB Radom was simultaneously producing new wz.29's and making wz.98/29's from reparation parts, quite possibly a mixture of both. Based on the "n" and "p" letter blocks stamped on the above bolts, I'd be willing to bet they were originally German, restamped with a matching Polish s/n, and installed on new wz.29 rifles.

Poland also started exporting wz.29e's in 1928. Since new wz.29 production didn't start until 1930, we know that Poland was making its export models either from previously-made wz.98/29's or straight from reparation parts. Many of the wz.29e's got completely scrubbed of markings except for their serial numbers, especially when Poland wanted to hide its hand such as in Spain.

The Big Question
So, if FB Radom only produced 1,000 new wz.29 rifles in 1930, why do we have at least four examples in the 6XXX to 8XXX serial number range? Assuming that Radom started its serial numbering somewhere closer to zero, this implies that Radom built a few thousand more rifles. This is backed up by export sales: in 1930 alone Poland sold over 14,000 wz.29e's to China and Hijaz. So are the generally-accepted Radom production numbers wrong?

Let's step back a bit. According to the Gwóźdź book, of the 264,300 total new wz.29's produced at FB Radom from 1930 to 1939, only 7,900 were exported as wz.29e's. According to the website, however, the total number of wz.29e's exported was over 143,000. Thus the majority of the rifles exported (135,100 of them) must have been taken from wz.98/29 stocks or built straight from reparation K98's, for which we have no production data. It also implies that Poland produced at least 400,000 wz.29's altogether.

So here's a hypothesis: in 1930, all the different types of wz29 rifles were serialed together as though they were one production run. Whether Radom built a new wz.29, or rebuilt reparation parts into a wz.98/29 or wz.29e, in the end they all got stamped together. Due to the four new wz.29's falling into a relatively close block, it seems likely that blocks were assigned. All we need now is data to clarify what actually happened.

Request for Information
Do you have a 1930 FB Radom Polish wz.29? If so, please post your s/n information so we can figure this out. In fact, I'd be willing to start a database on all Polish wz.29's if you want to send me information about your rifle from any year. Might be a fun project! Thanks...

cartoonist
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Polish Karabinek wz.29 "Mauser"

Kbk wz.29 - produced 1930 to 1939 at FB Radom, total production 264,300.

Kbk wz.98/29 - produced 1927 to 1933, initially at Zbrojownia Nr 2 in Warsaw, and later moved to FB Radom (exact date unknown). Total production unknown. Made from German K98's given to Poland from WWI reparations. Look slightly different than wz.29.

Kbk wz.98e - export version, total of 143,000 exported. Of these, it appears that 7,900 were made from scrubbed wz.29's, and the remaining 135,100 came from the German 98K reparation rifles. Of these, we are unsure of how many went straight from K98 to wz.98e, and how many may have been scrubbed into a wz.29e from previously produced wz.98/29's.

Summary:
wz.29 - 264,300 rifles produced at FB Radom
wz.98/98 - 135,100 rifles produced between Warsaw and Radom which were exported plus whatever the Poles kept for themselves (unknown). Does anyone know how many rifles Germany had to give Poland immediately after WWI in reparations? This would help estimate production!
Thus it seems that at least 400,000+ wz.29's were produced if sources are correct.

FB Radom Production (kbk wz.98): (1930-1939)
1930 - 1000 rifles
1931 - 30,900 rifles
1932 - 26,200 rifles
1933 - 35,000 rifles
1934 - 28,200 rifles
1935 - 20,300 rifles
1936 - 5,800 rifles
1937 - 65,200 rifles
1938 - 36,700 rifles
1939 - 15,000 rifles
Total: 264,300 rifles
Above appears to be all new wz.29 production rifles, and not inclusive of wz.98/29 production carried out at FB Radom.

Zbrojownia Nr 2 (Warsaw) Production: (1927 to ?)
- No new wz.29 production, just wz.98/29.
- Moved to FB Radom sometime between 1927 and 1933
- Lack of production figures

Sales/Exports of wz.29e:
1928/29 - 100 rifles sold to Afghanistan
1929 - 3,000 rifles solid to the Kingdom of Hijaz (now part of Saudi Arabia)
1930 - 4,200 rifles sold to China
1930 - 10,000 rifles sold to the Kingdom of Hijaz (w/parts)
1931 - 8,250 rifles sold to China
1935 - 61 rifles sold to an unknown receiver
1936 - 9,300 rifles sold to China (in reality to Spain)
1937 - 10,094 rifles sold to Mexico (in reality to Spain)
1936 - 1,697 rifles sold to Palestine
1937 - 5,800 rifles to Greece (in reality to Spain)
1938 - 10,000 rifles sold to China (in reality to Spain)
1938 - 40,000 rifles sold to Greece (in reality to Spain)
1938 - 30,000 rifles sold to Peru (in reality to Spain)
1938 - 10,000 rifles sold to an unknown receiver
1938 - 500 rifles sold to an unknown receiver
Total: 143,002 rifles
In total, the Spanish Republic received 105,194 wz.29e rifles through intermediaries in China, Mexico, Greece, and Peru.

Kbk wz.29 Side Rail Markings:
1927 to 1929 - K98 or original German markings (e.g., Gew.98)
1929 to 1933 - K29 or K98-29 (rare)
1933 to 1939 - wz.29
 
#4 · (Edited)
Also in addition to my 1930 ser# 7801 which you already have I also have this all matching scrubbed Wz29 with no siderail marking. Thought it might help in your research. I might have have made a mistake in calling my 1930 a Wz29 ser#7801. In fact it might be a 98/29. The last PIC is of it. Ed
 
#5 ·
Not exactly sure if this relates because I don't knwo all of the Polish models. I have a 1926 Warsaw K98. The S/N is 66600. It was unfortunately sporterized back in the 50's (I presume). The work was tastefully done with a beautiful stock and a Lymann peep sight, but, the gun was forever altered. It has a German marked matching bolt. The receiver, mag floor plate, and barrel numbers match. It is in 99% condition.



 
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#6 ·
my K29 contribution

1930 Radom K29, sn 9702n, Notice originally struck "L" crossed out...
This example is totally matching.
I'm pleased to see research and feedback on these rifles..
I was led to believe that only K29 marked receivers fell into the 1000 numbering scheme.
I've included the polish eagle on the bolt for reference..
Keep up the good work!!

Mark
 
#8 · (Edited)
Definitely! Keep 'em coming... I've been scouring old posts and internet auctions and have already got about 30 rifles in my database, and some patterns are becoming clearer. If possible, please let me know:

- Model (e.g., wz.98, wz.98az, wz.29, wz.98/29, etc.)
- Matching?
- S/N on receiver
- Model markings on receiver (e.g., K29, M98, etc.)
- Crest markings including armory, year, other (e.g,. "7,91")
- Bolt type (turned, straight), knurled?
- Type of stock (some are 2-piece)
- Handguard: full-length?
- Type of front band (hinged w/stacking swivel, "H" style)
- Sling swivel configuration (dual, just on bottom)
- Old residual German markings
- Any other markings you think are important

After we get this honed a little, I can put together a real data sheet. Then I can start posting info.

Dziękuję bardzo za pomoc!
cartoonist
 
#9 ·
For example:

Model S/N Crest
wz.29 6709 p F.B. RADOM 1930 K29
wz.29 7629 F.B. RADOM 1930 K29
wz.98/29 7801 F.B. RADOM 1930 K98
wz.29 8014 n F.B. RADOM 1930 "H" K29
wz.29 8584 8 F.B. RADOM 1930 "H" K29
wz.29 9702 n F.B. RADOM 1930 "H" K29
wz.29 1302 F.B. RADOM 1931 K29
wz.98az 1468 F.B. RADOM 1931 Hinged K98

As we can see, it appears that RADOM intermixed serial numbers in 1930 between newly-made wz.29's and wz.98/29's! I don't have the blueprints for the shopfloor, but here's my guess... while wz.29's and wz.98/29's were being made simultaneously in separate areas of the factory, they trickled out to the same line for getting stamped with serial numbers. This is why there's a gap of 3,000 rifles when only 1,000 new wz.29's were supposed to have been produced! We just need some more data to prove it, especially more wz.98/29's falling into the middle of the wz.29 sequence.

Also you can see the serial numbering started over again for 1931, and they also appear interspersed together.

cartoonist
 
#10 · (Edited)
This is pretty through

Model Wz29

All matching numbers; they are on the Reciever (full number including suffix), Bolt (full number including suffix), Stock (full number including suffix), Buttplate (full number including suffix), Barrel (full number including suffix?), and the rear sight leaf (last three numbers).

I'm assuming that there barrel has the full number as I'm loathe to remove the handguard to recheck. (I will do it if urgently requested)

Serial #; 11525P

Model Marking on receiver; wz29

Crest marking; Polish Eagle over F.B.
RADOM
1935

Bolt type; Straight bolt

Type of stock; One piece w/bolt relief cutout, bolt removal disc, crossbolt and wooden dowel insert in relief cutout.

Handguard; Full length w/three wood dowel inserts at both ends and in front of rear sight.

Front band; "H" style

Sling swivel configuration; Dual sling swivels

Old residual German markings; Possibly on the bolt sleeve, cocking piece and the safety. (I am really not versed in ww1 era German markings.)

Any other markings you think are important; There are small polish eagles on the receiver, the bolt knob, and on the stock wrist.

Besides the small Polish eagle, The pictures below are the other markings found on the stock.

This is found in several sizes in two places; the bottom of the wrist (x2) and the right side of the stock near the bolt take down disc.



Found on bottom of wrist.



Found in the sling well.



Found near the buttplate on the right side.



The numbers one and two are also on the buttplate.

Misc; The rear sight spring is strawed. The bolt, stock crossbolt, take down disc, face of the rear sight (excluding the elevation numbers) and magazine follower are in the white. The rest of the parts are blued.
 
#12 ·
Got a question for you all. Did Warsaw produce any Wz29's? If so is there any way to distinguish between the Radom and the Warsaw other than crest? I am wondering because of the scrubbed ones. Thanks
 
#13 ·
radom 1929

i have a mauser radom 1929 it's serialnumber is 6786U, i would like to know more about this rifle.

I wanted to create a new thread here to try and shed some light on questions raised by this previous post of a Polish 1930 FB Radom Karabinek (kbk) wz.29: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=67759

Here's what we saw:
- 1930 FB Radom wz.29, s/n 6709p (8mm)
- 1930 FB Radom wz.29, s/n 7629 (.22 trainer version)
- 1930 FB Radom wz.29, s/n 7801 (8mm)
- 1930 FB Radom wz.29, s/n 8014n (8mm)

Now here's a good Polish website:
http://www.iirp.prv.pl/piechota/karabiny/kbk_29/departament_piechoty_karabiny_kbk_29.html

The Conundrum
According to this website (which is cobbled together from five different Polish books), the FB Radom factory produced just 1,000 new wz.29's in 1930, its first year of production. This is the generally accepted number in the U.S. collecting community as well. Yet we seem to have pretty clear evidence of more rifles being produced... above we see a difference of 1,305 between the low and high s/n's, with the strong possibility of even more.

What's up with these Polish serial numbers? Is it some kind of clever scheme to hide actual production figures? Or is the production several thousand rifles higher than thought?

Food for Thought
While FB Radom didn't start producing new wz.29's until 1930, Zbrojownia Nr. 2 (Armory No. 2) in Warsaw began making rifles to the wz.29 standard in 1927. These rifles were made from German K98's and parts taken as WWI reparations. The rifles, which differ only slightly in appearance from the new wz.29 but often retained original markings, were designated as the wz.98/29. Production of the wz.98/29 continued until 1933, which is probably when the German parts ran out. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any production data on them. But we do know that production was moved from Warsaw to Radom. So it's likely that by 1930, FB Radom was simultaneously producing new wz.29's and making wz.98/29's from reparation parts, quite possibly a mixture of both. Based on the "n" and "p" letter blocks stamped on the above bolts, I'd be willing to bet they were originally German, restamped with a matching Polish s/n, and installed on new wz.29 rifles.

Poland also started exporting wz.29e's in 1928. Since new wz.29 production didn't start until 1930, we know that Poland was making its export models either from previously-made wz.98/29's or straight from reparation parts. Many of the wz.29e's got completely scrubbed of markings except for their serial numbers, especially when Poland wanted to hide its hand such as in Spain.

The Big Question
So, if FB Radom only produced 1,000 new wz.29 rifles in 1930, why do we have at least four examples in the 6XXX to 8XXX serial number range? Assuming that Radom started its serial numbering somewhere closer to zero, this implies that Radom built a few thousand more rifles. This is backed up by export sales: in 1930 alone Poland sold over 14,000 wz.29e's to China and Hijaz. So are the generally-accepted Radom production numbers wrong?

Let's step back a bit. According to the Gwóźdź book, of the 264,300 total new wz.29's produced at FB Radom from 1930 to 1939, only 7,900 were exported as wz.29e's. According to the website, however, the total number of wz.29e's exported was over 143,000. Thus the majority of the rifles exported (135,100 of them) must have been taken from wz.98/29 stocks or built straight from reparation K98's, for which we have no production data. It also implies that Poland produced at least 400,000 wz.29's altogether.

So here's a hypothesis: in 1930, all the different types of wz29 rifles were serialed together as though they were one production run. Whether Radom built a new wz.29, or rebuilt reparation parts into a wz.98/29 or wz.29e, in the end they all got stamped together. Due to the four new wz.29's falling into a relatively close block, it seems likely that blocks were assigned. All we need now is data to clarify what actually happened.

Request for Information
Do you have a 1930 FB Radom Polish wz.29? If so, please post your s/n information so we can figure this out. In fact, I'd be willing to start a database on all Polish wz.29's if you want to send me information about your rifle from any year. Might be a fun project! Thanks...

cartoonist
 
#14 · (Edited)
Ok… This is my first post on this site. I was researching my latest acquisition and came across this very interesting thread. So here is the info.

The receiver, top to bottom:
790
Polish eagle/falcon
P.F.K
Warszawa
1928
Side rail, left to right:
ser# 1826X
K98

Hope this helps with you data collection. Any info on this rifle would be appreciated.

Thanks,
CanDoShooter
 
#15 ·
Hidden SN on WZ-29E

I have had this in a sporterised stock and took it out of wood-Sn on underside of barrel,and underside of receiver.Very crude SN stapmed on LH side of receiver.No polish eagles on barrrel but lots of small proofs.SN is 14188E.I have another WZ-29E and will have to take out of stock to see if additional hidden SN is there.It has large 5 digit SN on LH side of receiver.
 
#16 ·
I also have a Wz-29 model ID question-The Wz-29 configuration is usually with front sight ears,large ring receiver,straight bolt,and slot in buttstock with dual sling swivels.I have seen K-29's that are either Kar 98A copies with the different stacking hook and Others that look like a WZ-29 but have a small ring receiver and the rest of rifle has the Wz-29 features.Should there be Sn's collected for the K-29 seperate from the K-29/Kar-98a copy and sepreate from the Wz-29 large ring receiver rifle?? Or did polish Arsenals have no distinction beteen models?
 
#17 · (Edited)
I also have a question regarding Polish stocks of the era. My stock in the above mentioned rifle is missing parts. Can I use a Wz 29 stock and be true to the period? Are there significant differences that I should look for? Just looking for help in restoring history. Thanks in advance for any help.

Thanks,
CanDoShooter
 
#18 ·
yes you can use a K-29 Kar-98a-or Wz-29-they are very hard to find.Springfield sporters had both bands and some stocks-I think the stocks sold out before they had their auction and restructuring.The bands are slightly different than Vz-24 rifles.The Polish receiver is a little longer on the fron tend with a ring like the turkish mausers for the handguard to lock into.The K-29 Polish had its own style of stacking hook that was different from the German Kar-98.I have seen small ring Radom marked rifles in a WZ-29 style of stock-a lot of these rifles came in in the 1959-61 from Yugoslavia-sold out of a place called S&D bookstore.Good luck on your parts search-check Ebay because people are breaking up guns for parts-Springfield had some blank receiver K-98 SCW rifles that they sold in the 1980's-you may be able to get your parts that way.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Have Polish Mauser

It's been in my family for years. Not sure where/how acquired.
Top Receiver: Eagle Crest Left Rec: 7742n K29
F. B.
RADOM
1930

Floor plate, butt plate, bbl. under hand guard all stamped 7742n
Bolt stamped 8416 on top of handle, which is smooth knob.
at
8416 appears in other locations on bolt parts.
Inside of wood top handguard stamped 7742n
Other metal parts stamped 42 or 742
790 with a cartouche stamped in rear sight block under flip-up
Several cartouches on stock, most very hard to decipher

Any idea of approx. value? Been wondering about this piece for years, glad to have found your site.
 
#20 ·
Polish Mauser?

Hi, I was wondering if anyone can tell me what kind of rifle this is exactly. A friend of mine has had it in his closet for years, never did anything with it since is father died who brought it back from WWII as a vet. Here is a link to some pictures. http://16thir.thecheet.com/Mauser/ This was before I cleaned it up. Took it completely apart and cleaned it up then buffed it with #0000 steel wool and gun oil and finish is 95%+ with a great bore. There weren't any markings on the receiver other than the s/n and I don't think there was anything on the side rail although I could be mistaken. From the few numbers on it, it looked like it matched. Any help is appreciated as I really have no idea about Polish rifles; I specialize more in German K98ks.




 
#21 ·
Need help identifying Mauser rifles

My father-in law passed away and left a small collection of old guns in the attic. I am in process of researching. Based on Google search and information from this site appears two fo them are vintage WWII Mauser rifles. Could use some help determining origns, history and value. I am not a gun person so excuse my ignorance on names of parts etc.:

Rifle#1: FB Radom 1934, WZ 29. Has a large eagle/falcon crest stamped above the F.B. - Polish? Staight bolt handle. Serial number 85927M (all matching). No rust.

Rifle #2: BYF 43 Mod. 98. Stamped in a couple places with small eagle - different than the Polish crest above - German? Serial number 2535 (all matching). Metal mechanics are same as WZ 29 except wood extends almost to end of barrel and bolt action curves down. Has orginal leather shoulder strap.

Can send pictures if that would be helpful. Any guidance you can provide would be much appreciated. Thanks.
 
#22 ·
Mausers

Bob, the BYF 43 is a WWII German Mauser K98k (Karabiner 98 kurz, or Carbine Model of 1898, short). It was made at the Mauser Oberndorf-am-Neckar factory (the "real" Mauser factory) in Germany in 1943 in southwest germany I believe. That would be neat if this German Mauser really did completely match. To give you a quick rundown. The little eagle looking deals with numbers under them are called Waffenamt stamps (WaA for short). I think yours is 655 but thats off the top of my head and could be wrong. Almost all parts on the K98k are serialed (from the full number, to a partial of the last 2 or 1). Every single part has a WaA stamp on it, and those should all be the same number for it to be a matching gun which means it was all made at the same factory. If all serials and WaA numbers match, it's all original. The stock should have a serial in the barrel channel if you take it apart, as well as the handguard. The stock should aslo have an eagle with swastika under it as well as (most likely) a letter H indicating issue to the Heer (Army.) There should also be a couple WaA655 proof stamps on the stock, and a serial number and proof under the buttstock or grip. There should also be a Day-Month-Year stamp under the buttplate. It's fun to check them out and see how much matches. Even the safety and firing pin have serials...heck, even the front barrel band spring does. If you have any more questions about the K98k go ahead and ask... I am pretty familiar with them. Oh yeah, and the metal disc in the buttstock with a hole in it is a "bolt disassembly disc," which is a tool designed to help you disassemble your mauser bolt without damaging the firing pin which is easy to do. If it really is numbers matching, please take good care of it and oil it up to keep it nice as matching K98ks are much more rare in original condition.
 
#26 ·
Thanks ryg, that was my guess that it was an export. Have no idea how the guy got a hold of it in WWII, he was a canadian soldier. Since I know almost nothing about Polish Mausers, would you be able to give me an idea of the rarity and possible value of the rifle? Like i said it looks bad in the pics but cleaned up great with nicy shiny bluing under the very light surface rust. I've found doing research on these rifles, even with the power of the internet, to be quite a task indeed and any additional info is appreciated very much.
 
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