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Polish Mauser wz.29 Research

166K views 214 replies 91 participants last post by  ryg 
#1 · (Edited)
I wanted to create a new thread here to try and shed some light on questions raised by this previous post of a Polish 1930 FB Radom Karabinek (kbk) wz.29: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=67759

Here's what we saw:
- 1930 FB Radom wz.29, s/n 6709p (8mm)
- 1930 FB Radom wz.29, s/n 7629 (.22 trainer version)
- 1930 FB Radom wz.29, s/n 7801 (8mm)
- 1930 FB Radom wz.29, s/n 8014n (8mm)

Now here's a good Polish website:
http://www.iirp.prv.pl/piechota/karabiny/kbk_29/departament_piechoty_karabiny_kbk_29.html

The Conundrum
According to this website (which is cobbled together from five different Polish books), the FB Radom factory produced just 1,000 new wz.29's in 1930, its first year of production. This is the generally accepted number in the U.S. collecting community as well. Yet we seem to have pretty clear evidence of more rifles being produced... above we see a difference of 1,305 between the low and high s/n's, with the strong possibility of even more.

What's up with these Polish serial numbers? Is it some kind of clever scheme to hide actual production figures? Or is the production several thousand rifles higher than thought?

Food for Thought
While FB Radom didn't start producing new wz.29's until 1930, Zbrojownia Nr. 2 (Armory No. 2) in Warsaw began making rifles to the wz.29 standard in 1927. These rifles were made from German K98's and parts taken as WWI reparations. The rifles, which differ only slightly in appearance from the new wz.29 but often retained original markings, were designated as the wz.98/29. Production of the wz.98/29 continued until 1933, which is probably when the German parts ran out. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any production data on them. But we do know that production was moved from Warsaw to Radom. So it's likely that by 1930, FB Radom was simultaneously producing new wz.29's and making wz.98/29's from reparation parts, quite possibly a mixture of both. Based on the "n" and "p" letter blocks stamped on the above bolts, I'd be willing to bet they were originally German, restamped with a matching Polish s/n, and installed on new wz.29 rifles.

Poland also started exporting wz.29e's in 1928. Since new wz.29 production didn't start until 1930, we know that Poland was making its export models either from previously-made wz.98/29's or straight from reparation parts. Many of the wz.29e's got completely scrubbed of markings except for their serial numbers, especially when Poland wanted to hide its hand such as in Spain.

The Big Question
So, if FB Radom only produced 1,000 new wz.29 rifles in 1930, why do we have at least four examples in the 6XXX to 8XXX serial number range? Assuming that Radom started its serial numbering somewhere closer to zero, this implies that Radom built a few thousand more rifles. This is backed up by export sales: in 1930 alone Poland sold over 14,000 wz.29e's to China and Hijaz. So are the generally-accepted Radom production numbers wrong?

Let's step back a bit. According to the Gwóźdź book, of the 264,300 total new wz.29's produced at FB Radom from 1930 to 1939, only 7,900 were exported as wz.29e's. According to the website, however, the total number of wz.29e's exported was over 143,000. Thus the majority of the rifles exported (135,100 of them) must have been taken from wz.98/29 stocks or built straight from reparation K98's, for which we have no production data. It also implies that Poland produced at least 400,000 wz.29's altogether.

So here's a hypothesis: in 1930, all the different types of wz29 rifles were serialed together as though they were one production run. Whether Radom built a new wz.29, or rebuilt reparation parts into a wz.98/29 or wz.29e, in the end they all got stamped together. Due to the four new wz.29's falling into a relatively close block, it seems likely that blocks were assigned. All we need now is data to clarify what actually happened.

Request for Information
Do you have a 1930 FB Radom Polish wz.29? If so, please post your s/n information so we can figure this out. In fact, I'd be willing to start a database on all Polish wz.29's if you want to send me information about your rifle from any year. Might be a fun project! Thanks...

cartoonist
 
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#27 ·
GenJack, the discussion at the top of this thread is actually "ground-breaking" news concerning these Wz29 rifles. As for rarity, the Wz29e's are not common but not scarce, either, unless its serial numbers are completely matching. I have seen them asking 200 - 325. Maybe you can add a little more if all matching.

I think many folks find them less interesting because of the lack of a crest or other major marking on the receiver. The Wz29's that still have the Polish crests are scarcer and in more demand.

If the vet has any capture papers from the war documenting this rifle, it would place the value much higher, like 800+ (I'm guessing here - maybe more). But you probably know that, since you are knowledgeable about German weapons.
 
#28 ·
Thanks again ryg. I had the rifle almost a year ago for cleaning, and to be honest there were not many serial numbers on it. The few I saw I think matched, including the receiver and bolt. I'll have to let my friend know about the rifle and its history. Unfortunately his father, the Canadian WWII vet, died many years ago and I don't know if the capture papers made the move from Canada to California along with the rifle, but I will have him look as you're absolutely correct, capture documentation adds a great deal of value to the weapon. Thanks again for the information. I probably shouldn't tell you this, as it makes me cringe, but I gave the owner 20 rounds of corrosive surplus to run through it about 8 months ago and he still hasn't cleaned the bore!!! It was great when I serviced the rifle, hopefully it's not too bad now.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Polish Mauser circa 1938

Hey everyone, new to the forums, I started posting on another thread and I figured this one was more current so I would throw a link to the forum posts here too. I need some help and info from anyone who is willing to help. Cartoonist, you seem to know the forums and your mausers, so I sent you an email with the information. Sorry my pics dont work yet, someone help with that?

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?p=688927#post688927

Im gonna go ahead and copy my other post hear just in case no one looks at the other forum

I stumbled upon a f.b. radom wz.29 Mauser, produced in 1938, in pretty damn good condition. Most pictures I see are a shorter version of this rifle, mine has no cleaner rod slot and a much longer barrel from the end of the stock on (approx. 14 inches off the front of the stock, 23 inches in total from the reciever cover). Serial numbers on the rifle are all matching (49226Z). No rust, good blueing. Pictures are to follow if I can get them to work. I am looking for as much information on this rifle as well as ballpark worth. I will be forwarding this message to you cartoonist as you seem to be quite the expert. Respond on the link or email me at tburkett3@live.com with any information or anything you need out of me to further identify the rifle. Thank you very much.
















 
#30 · (Edited)
FB Radom 1930

There is a post about this rifle that I started on 1/27/09, including pictures, here is some data for you:

Model wz 29
Matching, yes, except bolt
S/N 51XX
Model Marking K29
Crest Markings F.B. Radom 1930, with Polish Eagle
Bolt type straight, much higher serial number, with German Imperial eagle
Stock 1 piece
handguard full length
front band "H" style
sling swivels dual
German residual? one individual who commented on my 1/27/09 post remarked that he thought the bolt markings were German Imperial, it is an eagle shape on the underside
Other markings? the barrel has a large "S" stamped on the top/center, just forward of the receiver, on the side, there is a Nazi waffenampt, both of these markings were underneath the upper handguard
 
#31 · (Edited)
Thought I knew what I had,but after reading this sticky not so sure.Thought the Radom crested rifle was a wz29,but is it a wz98/29?The other rifle is crested 1926.





These other 2 rifles have scrubbed receivers. The first rifle is all matching,wood included,except the bolt.Which appears to be a WWI german bolt with Polish inspectors mark.It also has a waffenamt marked bolt release which is numbered to the rifle.




The last a wz29 washed receiver,all matching numbers including bolt.Came with an Erma sub caliber traing device.




 
#33 ·
Just picked up a "parts rifle" from gunbroker. It's a large ring action with no markings other than serial number - suffix Z. No import stamp. Rifle has mis-matched bolt. The barrel has a continuous taper- much like a KAR98barrel- instead of contours. I am guessing this is a wz29.
 
#36 ·
Polish Mauser Questions

I picked up a Polish Mauser last week, for $150.00. I know near to nothing re the Polish Mauser.

It had been "sporterized" issue stock had been cut off and rounded, no handguard. The barrelled action is still in original condition though. No further bending of the bolt not drilled or tapped, front sight still original.

Barrel and reciever numbers match, bolt doesnt.


The bore is excellent sharp and shiny. The bolt to the action is tight.

My question is: Is it worth the additional expense to try and bring back the weapon to as close to original condition as possible, being a mixmaster.
Or, should I just enjoy it as a shooter?

Same individual has a "bringback" Polish Mauser with no import stamps and ALL matching numbers, as well as the original albeit deteriorating sling for $500.00. (Not Firm).
 
#37 ·
- Model: wz29
- Matching?: mismatched German bolt
- S/N on receiver: 88386M
- Model markings on receiver: wz29
- Crest markings including armory, year, other: Radom 1934
- Bolt type (turned, straight), knurled?: turned, K98k bolt
 
#39 ·
No date Radom

Hello. this is my first post on this Forum. I'm a collector of bayonets but also over the years I did purchase a few Polish mausers. Never took a time to research on them, Polish mausers are very confusing. One of the Radoms I have is marked F.B.Radom but no date of production. Can't find any information about this gun except a picture of one in "Mausers of the World" book. Will appreciate any help from You. Thanks !!
 
#40 ·
You have a K98 with no date and a German type stacking hook, both features that suggest very early Radom production. Maybe 1922-1924, not sure when production started but have seen 1924 dated Radoms. The other markings probably tell more of a story but I do not recognize them.
 
#42 · (Edited)
Thanks, very interesting. According to the article, construction began on the Radom factory buildings on March 15, 1923. The first mention of production in the article is 250 rifles in 1926. We know there are 1924 marked rifles but there must not be very many with that date.

Correction: The 1924 rifle I was thinking of is marked WARSZAWA, not RADOM. Assuming the article is correct, the first Radom rifles would have been made in 1926. They were made with parts and equipment taken from Warsaw and may well have been marked WARSZAWA, so the first RADOM marked rifles could have been made in 1927. We know from this thread there is at least one Radom rifle with no year date and I am guessing that would have been made in 1926 or 1927.
 
#43 ·
Not a great translation :)) I used translator provided by Google. In 1926 they were producing 250 rifles PER DAY. Just received information from a gun collector, he also has A Radom with no date and serial # is very close to mine (7404c). His stacking hook is Polish, most of the numbers match.
 
#44 ·
Hi
This is a long distance call from Norway.

I inherited a Polish Mauser from my father in law,and wanted to find out som more about it. Google led me to this tread, and if it is of any interest to the treadstarter, here is the data about my rifle:
Radom 1930 with the Polish Eagle.
K 29
S/N 3007 m
The bolt, stock and floorplate is not original

With greetings from Norway
 
#46 ·
A new one:

- Model: wz29 (Spanish Civil War)
- Matching?: mismatched Polish bolt S/N 41554
- S/N on receiver and stock: 55261Z
- Model markings on receiver: none
- Crest markings including armory, year, other: none
- Bolt type (turned, straight), knurled?: straight, round knob

Circle Z on right receiver and bolt handle
8mm marked on barrel at front band
rebuilt by Spain
 
#48 ·
I am Spanish and use a translator if it are not anything nice, excuse me.
The majority of guns of Poland that I have seen some do not lead any emblem, the number of series and k-98 in the wings of the box of mechanisms, to seeing only if I can manage the numbers of series and to know who I construct them or when.

Regards
 
#49 · (Edited)
Hi - sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I've just purchased a Polish Mauser and am trying to figure out the proper designation for it.

The receiver is scrubbed with only 7.92 on the top. On the side, along with the serial # is K98. It has a bent bolt (infantry model) that features a half-round shape with checkering on the bottom.

It is import marked with "Poland 8mm" near the tip of the barrel. The cleaning rod channel has been filled in and it has the early style stacking hook.

Would this rifle be classified as a WZ98/29 or a WZ98e? Also, given the absence of a date on the receiver, is there any way to date it by serial number?

I've attached some pics hoping they would help.

Thanks much.
 

Attachments

#50 ·
Nice rifle, that is a Kbk wz.98. It started off its life as a Polish service rifle, but later had the receiver markings were scrubbed and was sold to Spain during the Spanish Civil War. There is some info here: http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/polarms1.html

The Kbk wz.98 is the predecessor to the wz.29. Yours is as issued to the Polish military minus the Polish markings. This model did not have a cleaning rod, and is offten reffered to as a copy of the German Kar 98 AZ. This is because Poland was able to keep the German tooling from Danzig, and used these tools to build the Kbk wz.98, therefore most parts are identical. The tools from Danzig were moved to PFK Warsawa (Peoples rifle factory Warsaw) Here is some additional info: http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/foreign/hem2.passagen.se/dadkri/Kbk98.htm

Yours seems to have kept its Polish bolt, which is a plus. Also, I would guess that it was made at PFK Warsawa, and not at Radom. I have noticed that Radom made examples have a serial number letter suffix, where this one does not. Don't fret if it is not all matching, most SCW Kbk wz.98's I have seen do have mismatched bands, bolts and some other small parts.

Just as a side note, I have read a theory that the A on the stock might mean the rifle was captured by the Reds if I remember correctly.

There seems to be no way to date the rifle by SN, but it would have been made between 1925 and 1931. All Kbk wz.98's had the bent bolt. With the wz.29's, straight bolts were put in for the Infantry, and bent bolts for Cavalry.
 
#51 ·
Thanks very much. This is a big help.

I had read elsewhere that the Infantry models had the bent bolt, but the rest of this info is new to me.

Does the "Poland 8mm" import stamp identify specifically who imported it? Would it be a pre-or post '68 import?
 
#52 ·
Off the subject at hand but I remember seeing a Polish carbine with a 660 on the receiver, thought wow that's not a Steyr, any thoughts ? Lookrd for yrs trying to find a Gew Polish 98. Encountered one about 20 some yrs back more missing than was there. I'll try and gig out my carbine for the data.
 
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