Pair of original matching 91/30 PU snipers and some questions
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Thread: Pair of original matching 91/30 PU snipers and some questions

  1. #1
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    Default Pair of original matching 91/30 PU snipers and some questions

    Seems that these original matching snipers are somewhat common in the USA but it took me years of constant searching to find these in Canada. Sorry for the mix of good and bad photos!

    Both rifles were made by Factory No. 74 in Izhevsk and have excellent bores and scopes. You can really see the improvement in machining in 1944 from the 1943 rifle.

    1943:

    There is the Russian <r n C> marking laser etched on the bolt body. There are no import markings or export markings on the barrel nor receiver. From the Molot export though.

    Factory logo (triangle) is missing from the magazine body. I've never seen that before. There is another stamp in that area which I have seen before. It was not scrubbed and there was no grinding from what I can tell. Many markings on the inside but no logo. Would this be an armorers spare? Just very lightly struck? edit: Ratnik has informed me that magazine bodies with a missing arsenal logo have been observed and that furthermore the magazine body is correct.

    The nose cap is interestingly an early pattern with the Tula hammer marking. It's peculiar to me that this would be the only replaced part on the rifle. Perhaps it is original, I don't know. edit: He has also informed me that the factories were permitted to recycle older parts to expedite production. However, you cannot presume it is original as it could have easily been replaced as well. No way to know for sure.

    The shellac was applied fairly thickly in some areas with visible runs. It makes certain stock markings a bit muddled but there are at least a dozen. I don't think it was sanded.

    There is rear sight leaf spring is blued. I have not observed this before. The scope mount, receiver and other parts show typical bluing loss, where the barrel is more clean. Perhaps the barrel was re-blued, I don't know.

    There is a clear triangle marking on the hand guard but I forgot to take a photo of it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails fullleft.jpg   scope.jpg   mount.jpg   scopenum2.jpg   barrel2.jpg   bolt2.jpg  

    butt.jpg   floor.jpg   rear.jpg   magnommark.jpg   front.jpg   cartouche.jpg  

    Last edited by bp2626; 01-22-2017 at 02:22 PM.
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    Default 1944

    1944:

    There are no markings that I could find (so far) that are not original to the rifle.

    Has the same sloppy shellac but not as bad.

    The bluing is a deep glossy black that is similar to my original matching post-war M44s. There are visible halos around every serial number (sorry if the photos don't capture that).

    Every part has the marking you would expect it to have. The rear of the hand guard has a few dents where the logo would be so I couldn't capture it. Not sure if it was even still there in 1944, I may just be seeing ghosts.

    I don't notice anything out of place on this one but if you do, don't hesitate to let me know.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails fullleft.jpg   mount2.jpg   scopenum.jpg   scope.jpg   barrelscopenum.jpg   barrel.jpg  

    bolt2.jpg   butt2.jpg   floor2.jpg   rear.jpg   front.jpg   cartouche.jpg  

    Last edited by bp2626; 01-20-2017 at 04:46 PM.
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    Nice rifles. Both are factory matching with just some shellac added post war for storage. If your sight leaf is blued then that was changed also after leaving the factory. No giant import marks is a huge plus. These are not at all easy to find anywhere, let alone the U.S. What you typically see are refurb matching rifles. These two are factory matching which is rare. Congrats and thanks for sharing!

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    Two gorgeous specimens. It's very uncommon to see PUs original matching down to the scope.

    I'm a bit surprised that the stock on the '43 has an АП acceptance mark. I've seen it on original matching '43 non-snipers, but don't think I've seen it on a PU.







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    Nice rifles, Bryan. Put me on the top of the list of buyers.

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    Very nice rifles and very tough too find too. Especially for you guys up there seems like the pickings are not as common. Thanks for sharing by the way and glad too see your search has finally common too a close.

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    Great rifles! Is the mount on the first a Tula mount? Do you have a photo of the machine marks on the inside?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Horilka View Post
    Nice rifles, Bryan. Put me on the top of the list of buyers.
    Who else!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    Two gorgeous specimens. It's very uncommon to see PUs original matching down to the scope.

    I'm a bit surprised that the stock on the '43 has an АП acceptance mark. I've seen it on original matching '43 non-snipers, but don't think I've seen it on a PU.
    It was the first time I had seen it as well. Initially made me doubt if it was the original stock but in the opinion of more knowledgeable people than myself it's fine. I haven't had the pleasure of seeing or handling that many original Mosin rifles, unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior1354 View Post
    Very nice rifles and very tough too find too. Especially for you guys up there seems like the pickings are not as common. Thanks for sharing by the way and glad too see your search has finally common too a close.


    I found the first rifle a little over a year ago but I had not posted it. I wish my search were over but there are still Tulas out there!

    Quote Originally Posted by jjjxlr8 View Post
    Great rifles! Is the mount on the first a Tula mount? Do you have a photo of the machine marks on the inside?
    Attached some photos. Machining looks like Izhevsk to me.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_20170120_165206.jpg   IMG_20170120_165236.jpg  
    Last edited by bp2626; 01-20-2017 at 07:24 PM.
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    I'd love to find one as nice as either of those for my collection! Thanks for sharing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bp2626 View Post
    . . . I wish my search were over but there are still Tulas out there!



    Attached some photos. Machining looks like Izhevsk to me.
    There are a couple of original matching '44 Tulas in my gun vault.







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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    I'm a bit surprised that the stock on the '43 has an АП acceptance mark. I've seen it on original matching '43 non-snipers, but don't think I've seen it on a PU.
    I think the stock is probably from a late 1942 rifle. Yes, the buttplate is factory, but I have a factory matched 1942 rifle with an ОГ stock and I'm pretty sure the stock was replaced. You might want to run your finger across that scope serial number and see if the scope body was ground down. Not uncommon to find the scope renumbered to match.

    There are some 1943 rifles with АП stocks but they also have "late" prefixes and the small АП on the barrel also. Or at least they should. 1939 is also a weird (or at least poorly understood) year as far as GAU inspections go...

    The 1944 is extremely late, and looks fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanE View Post
    I think the stock is probably from a late 1942 rifle. Yes, the buttplate is factory, but I have a factory matched 1942 rifle with an ОГ stock and I'm pretty sure the stock was replaced. You might want to run your finger across that scope serial number and see if the scope body was ground down. Not uncommon to find the scope renumbered to match.

    There are some 1943 rifles with АП stocks but they also have "late" prefixes and the small АП on the barrel also. Or at least they should. 1939 is also a weird (or at least poorly understood) year as far as GAU inspections go...

    The 1944 is extremely late, and looks fine.
    Thanks for your observations.

    Through visual and physical inspection, the scope's serial number was not ground down. Maybe the poor lighting is showing something that actually isn't there?

    As far as the stock goes. Considering that inspection cartouches are based purely on observation of a very small sample size of original rifles relative to production, and the fact we have observed АП inspected infantry stocks in 1943, and the fact that the same inspectors came and went in the same factory wouldn't it be more logical to conclude that the stock is original, if everything else is?

    In the quest to find these rifles I handled about a dozen "almost" original matching rifles. There were 3 that were all original other than a replaced stock and in each instance the buttplate was force matched.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bp2626 View Post
    Thanks for your observations.

    Through visual and physical inspection, the scope's serial number was not ground down. Maybe the poor lighting is showing something that actually isn't there?
    If you don't feel a flat spot, the scope is fine. Lighting in the photo almost looked like it might have one.

    Quote Originally Posted by bp2626 View Post
    As far as the stock goes. Considering that inspection cartouches are based purely on observation of a very small sample size of original rifles relative to production, and the fact we have observed АП inspected infantry stocks in 1943, and the fact that the same inspectors came and went in the same factory wouldn't it be more logical to conclude that the stock is original, if everything else is?

    In the quest to find these rifles I handled about a dozen "almost" original matching rifles and there were 3 that were all original other than a replaced stock and in each instance the butt plate was force matched.
    The inspections are of the GAU's representative assigned to the factory. These were high ranking officers (probably a colonel) with a lot of authority, so they didn't move around much. Some years saw more turnover than others (1939-1940 seems to have the most changes), but they are usually pretty constant.

    As I mentioned the АП barrel inspections hang around until early 1943, oddly enough on "late" prefixes. This is an M block rifle (middle of the alphabet), and it lacks the barrel inspection, so it probably had an ОГ stock originally. Not saying its impossible it had this stock from the factory, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanE View Post
    If you don't feel a flat spot, the scope is fine. Lighting in the photo almost looked like it might have one.
    Ah, yes, I see what you see in the photo. Definitely no flat spot on the actual scope.


    Quote Originally Posted by RyanE View Post
    The inspections are of the GAU's representative assigned to the factory. These were high ranking officers (probably a colonel) with a lot of authority, so they didn't move around much. Some years saw more turnover than others (1939-1940 seems to have the most changes), but they are usually pretty constant.

    As I mentioned the АП barrel inspections hang around until early 1943, oddly enough on "late" prefixes. This is an M block rifle (middle of the alphabet), and it lacks the barrel inspection, so it probably had an ОГ stock originally. Not saying its impossible it had this stock from the factory, though.
    The only markings on the barrel that I noticed were H 4 208 which I'm sure is related to proofing or assembly numbers or something like that. I don't even see an inspector's cartouche on this one, stamped at an angle?

    I was wrong about the markings, the 1943 also does not have any markings on the receiver nor barrel. I had remembered it having Molot export markings but it doesn't. It is absolutely from the Molot batch, however.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bp2626 View Post
    The only markings on the barrel that I noticed were H 4 208 which I'm sure is related to proofing or assembly numbers or something like that. I don't even see an inspector's cartouche, stamped at an angle?

    I was wrong about the markings, the 1943 also does not have any markings on the receiver or barrel. I had remembered it having Molot export markings but it doesn't. It is absolutely from the Molot batch, however.
    The marking you describe (H4208) is the lot code of the steel used to make the barrel blank. If any problems were found with the steel during production (usually barrel failure during proof testing), the factory could easily find the barrels/blanks made from that lot and scrap them.

    Your 1943 rifle was made sometime later in the year, so no surprise it doesn't have the small GAU inspection on the barrel. They were dropped in 1943 and never came back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanE View Post
    The marking you describe (H4208) is the lot code of the steel used to make the barrel blank. If any problems were found with the steel during production (usually barrel failure during proof testing), the factory could easily find the barrels/blanks made from that lot and scrap them.

    Your 1943 rifle was made sometime later in the year, so no surprise it doesn't have the small GAU inspection on the barrel. They were dropped in 1943 and never came back.
    Thanks for the information. I had honestly not looked for the barrel inspection stamp on any of my later rifles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanE View Post
    If you don't feel a flat spot, the scope is fine. Lighting in the photo almost looked like it might have one.



    The inspections are of the GAU's representative assigned to the factory. These were high ranking officers (probably a colonel) with a lot of authority, so they didn't move around much. Some years saw more turnover than others (1939-1940 seems to have the most changes), but they are usually pretty constant.

    As I mentioned the АП barrel inspections hang around until early 1943, oddly enough on "late" prefixes. This is an M block rifle (middle of the alphabet), and it lacks the barrel inspection, so it probably had an ОГ stock originally. Not saying its impossible it had this stock from the factory, though.
    I have always assumed, whether correctly or incorrectly, that PUs never had the barrel inspection mark because of the area being used for the scope number (my reasoning being that the (K) mark is also never present on PUs)? At any rate, I've never seen even the vestige of an inspector's mark on a PU or ex-PU barrel.

    I have an original matching non-sniper 91/30 fairly close (MC) to the OP's '43 which has an АП stock, and a probable though not conclusive АП barrel inspection (struck crooked and illegible, but the partial letters there couldn't be an ОГ). And another HP series that has АП stock and definite АП barrel inspection. Also a ЧИ series with a definite АП barrel proof, so it would appear to me that there was a smattering of АП stamped rifles in serial series spread through the approximate middle of the alphabet.

    It all makes me think the АП stock is quite possibly original to the gun.
    Last edited by Ol' Relic; 01-21-2017 at 07:32 AM.







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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanE View Post
    If you don't feel a flat spot, the scope is fine. Lighting in the photo almost looked like it might have one.



    The inspections are of the GAU's representative assigned to the factory. These were high ranking officers (probably a colonel) with a lot of authority, so they didn't move around much. Some years saw more turnover than others (1939-1940 seems to have the most changes), but they are usually pretty constant.

    As I mentioned the АП barrel inspections hang around until early 1943, oddly enough on "late" prefixes. This is an M block rifle (middle of the alphabet), and it lacks the barrel inspection, so it probably had an ОГ stock originally. Not saying its impossible it had this stock from the factory, though.
    I have always assumed, whether correctly or incorrectly, that PUs never had the barrel inspection mark because of the area being used for the scope number (my reasoning being that the (K) mark is also never present on PUs)? At any rate, I've never seen even the vestige of an inspector's mark on a PU or ex-PU barrel.

    I have an original matching non-sniper 91/30 fairly close (MC) to the OP's '43 which has an АП stock, and a probable though not conclusive АП barrel inspection (struck crooked and illegible, but the partial letters there couldn't be an ОГ). And another HP series that has АП stock and definite АП barrel inspection. Also a ЧИ series with a definite АП barrel proof, so it would appear to me that there was a smattering of АП stamped rifles in serial series spread through the approximate middle of the alphabet.

    It all makes me think the АП stock is quite possibly original to the gun.
    The plot thickens!

    Interesting that you have one in such a close M block. Would you mind sharing those three rifles? I would be happy to see them.

    I did notice your two 1944 Tulas. That was one of the factors (including other people sharing their original snipers) that made me believe that original examples were at least obtainable in the USA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bp2626 View Post
    The plot thickens!

    Interesting that you have one in such a close M block. Would you mind sharing those three rifles? I would be happy to see them.

    I did notice your two 1944 Tulas. That was one of the factors (including other people sharing their original snipers) that made me believe that original examples were at least obtainable in the USA.
    Note that the rifles I mentioned in the referenced post are non-snipers.

    The two Tulas that I mentioned in the earlier post I lucked into. The first was showed up when I ordered what I thougjt was going to be a rust bucket beater shooter from a batch of "seconds" that AIM surplus sold at around $450 a while back. The second was from Classic firearms. Major luck on both.







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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bp2626 View Post
    The plot thickens!

    Interesting that you have one in such a close M block. Would you mind sharing those three rifles? I would be happy to see them.

    I did notice your two 1944 Tulas. That was one of the factors (including other people sharing their original snipers) that made me believe that original examples were at least obtainable in the USA.
    Note that the rifles I mentioned in the referenced post are non-snipers.

    The two Tulas that I mentioned in the earlier post I lucked into. The first was showed up when I ordered what I thougjt was going to be a rust bucket beater shooter from a batch of "seconds" that AIM surplus sold at around $450 a while back. The second was from Classic firearms. Major luck on both.
    Yes, I understand that they're 91/30 infantry rifles. However, if RyanE has only observed late rifles inspected, they would add a missing piece to the 1943 inspector's markings puzzle. I also enjoying viewing original or near Mosins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bp2626 View Post
    Yes, I understand that they're 91/30 infantry rifles. However, if RyanE has only observed late rifles inspected, they would add a missing piece to the 1943 inspector's markings puzzle. I also enjoying viewing original or near Mosins.
    I'll dig a couple of them out and post some macros of the barrel inspection marks sometime tomorrow.







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    Very impressive rifles. Very hard to find that original. Thanks for posting.

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    A really nice pair of PUs; I'm still looking to add an original matching Izhevsk PU to my sniper collection someday. They are very tough to find!
    Looking for PU scope number 10062. See post http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...light=pashutr3

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    very nice a hard find these days.

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    I noticed the '43 has a scope from '43 and the '44 has a scope from '44. Is it accepted that Izzy rifles would have been outfitted with a scope that would have been more or less fresh off the line from Progress, Yoshkar-Ola, or Kazan (and as a result match for year)? I have read that Tulas probably got most of their scopes from Krasnogorsk, presumably also relatively soon after they were made. Any credence to this too? Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xygorak View Post
    I noticed the '43 has a scope from '43 and the '44 has a scope from '44. Is it accepted that Izzy rifles would have been outfitted with a scope that would have been more or less fresh off the line from Progress, Yoshkar-Ola, or Kazan (and as a result match for year)? I have read that Tulas probably got most of their scopes from Krasnogorsk, presumably also relatively soon after they were made. Any credence to this too? Thanks
    Yes to both.

    There are always exceptions with Russian weapons though.
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    Very nice PU's sir!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bp2626 View Post
    Yes to both.

    There are always exceptions with Russian weapons though.
    You will find early 1944 rifles with 1943 scopes also. I have never seen a 1943 rifle with a 1944 scope though. But I guess it is possible.

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