Chinese variations of Makarov
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  1. #1

    Default Chinese variations of Makarov

    Guys, I am curious.
    Why Chinese made so many variations of Makarov. I am talking the prefixes A, B, Z and ZZ in the triangle. If im not mistaken, all of these commercial guns are made on the same factory. Ok, I can understand prefix A and B. But why put ZZ in the triangle where 56 should be.
    Thanks.

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    I'm sure when Henry's and Cameron's second book comes out we can find out everything about the Chinese Makarov. In the mean time I don't have a clue, sorry.

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    Like many questions RE Chinese SKSs, and when/why they did things, we may never know the answer to this question....
    Looking for USS Casimir Pulaski SSBN 633 items.

    This was the most interesting conversation I was ever not a part of and I look forward to the next conversation on the topic.
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    Confusious say, Chinese alphabet is not same as English one. We were just trying to drive you crazy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewToMk View Post
    Guys, I am curious.
    Why Chinese made so many variations of Makarov. I am talking the prefixes A, B, Z and ZZ in the triangle. If im not mistaken, all of these commercial guns are made on the same factory. Ok, I can understand prefix A and B. But why put ZZ in the triangle where 56 should be.
    Thanks.
    Cameron asked me some questions concerning Chinese Type 59s. Here is a copy of what I sent him, might interest you:

    True military Type 59s were manufactured by Factory 626 located in the city of Bei An, in the northern province of Hei Long Jiang. The plant was set up in November 1951.

    The Type 59 was only manufactured between 1959 and 1960 and issuing priority was given to officers and high command. Production was stopped for several reasons: poor quality Chinese Type 59 ammunition that lead to several accidents (failure to extract, overpressure, misfires...), lack of experience in complex machining which led to difficulties in production, and the degradation of Sino-Soviet relations around this time period. Type 59s were barely issued when the supply was cut off and pistols recalled.

    True military Type 59s have a characteristic grip shell with the shield embossed with five stars, hence its nickname, the "5-star gun" or "red star gun". The serial number pattern is a simple serial number followed by "Triangle 66" and "59-Type". The serial number pattern with letters are Norinco-commercialised civilian export versions.

    After the Clinton firearms import embargo, North Industries Co. (Norinco) turned its sights to China's neighbors for business. So this explains the large amount of Chinese firearms in Phillipino circulation. A large number of exports in the form of M4-style rifles have been reported. Undoubtedly, that's also how some NP19s ended up in abundance in these countries.

    As for the ZZ prefix, they stand for the Zhong Zhou machinery plant in the Henan province. They manufactured the handgun while Norinco commercialised them at a MSRP of $185. The first batches of export Type 59s were produced by Norinco in the 80s.

    Here are some rare pictures of true military Type 59s(click to enlarge)
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  7. #6

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    I have a Norinco Model 59 in excellent condition. On the left side of the slide is the importer mark and serial number. On the right side is:

    MADE IN CHINA BY NORINCO
    MODEL 59 9x18mm

    On the left side of the frame above the grip is the serial number(B0016X) followed by a triangle around the number 56, definitely not 66.

    Is there any info about the numbers of these imported?

    I shot it with some Chinese ammo at 15 yards and it grouped about 2.5" which is better than I usually do with a pistol.

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    I'm not following this. I thought the Makarov was the std. Chinese Commie handgun. Did they resume manufacture at some time after that period when the guns were recalled?

    How does Norinco quality compare to European Makarovs?

    What is their current issue?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Star View Post
    I'm not following this. I thought the Makarov was the std. Chinese Commie handgun. Did they resume manufacture at some time after that period when the guns were recalled?

    How does Norinco quality compare to European Makarovs?

    What is their current issue?
    As part of Soviet aid towards China, tooling and drawings of AKs, SKSs, RPDs, and Makarovs flooded the PRC in the 50-60s. The standard issue pistol of the PLA was the Type 51, a local Tokarev pistol copy under Soviet assistance. This was followed by a final indigenous version, the Type 54, fully produced in the PRC. Both handguns were chambered for the 7.62x25mm cartridge.

    Several other types of pistols were also produced for police and military use, and the Type 59 was one of them. It never saw widespread use at the time since it was only produced for one year, so it was never caught on as the standard army pistol. The police however, kept on using old military stocks produced in Factory 626, as well as new production Norinco and Zhong Zhou-produced models for their use.

    Quality on all Makarovs are the same. One of the most difficult, and most overlooked features of the PM, was 100% complete interchangeability of parts, even between countries. This is something we take for granted today, but the amount of engineering and quality control this takes is colossal.

    However, in terms of fit and finish, Chinese-produced PMs are just as good as any other Soviet or Bulgarian Makarov.

    The PLA and police forces are now armed with the Type 92 handgun family. R&D started in 1994. The Type 92 drew inspiration from the M9 and USP pistols. There were three different variants of the Type 92, or QSZ-92 (QSZ is an acronym for "Light weapon, Pistol, Individual use"):

    -The QSZ-92-9, chambered in 9x19mm Parabellum, completed in 1998. Has a 15 round box magazine.

    -The QSZ-92-5.8, chambered in a proprietary bottlenecked, spitzer 5.8x21mm DAP-92 cartridge, ballistically similar to FN 5.7x28mm. The design was finalised in 2000. Since the DAP-92 cartridge is narrower, the same magazine can now accommodate 20 rounds.

    -The NP42, for the American export market, in 9x19mm or 5.8x21 DAP-92 chambering, finalised in 2004.

    If you want to know more about the QSZ-42, here is an excellent in-depth article of the history, development and features of the pistol.
    Last edited by Meerkoos; 01-28-2017 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Corrected Type 51-54 content.

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    Thanks for sharing Meerkoos! I'm not sure if everyone reading this thread realizes just how hard it is to find images if Type 59 pistils actually being used. One other thing I'll point out. Norinco is a conglomerate owned by the Chines military so any firearm made by them may be legitimately considered to have been made in a military factory in a manner of speaking. ABTOMAT

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    Quote Originally Posted by ABTOMAT View Post
    Thanks for sharing Meerkoos! I'm not sure if everyone reading this thread realizes just how hard it is to find images if Type 59 pistils actually being used. One other thing I'll point out. Norinco is a conglomerate owned by the Chines military so any firearm made by them may be legitimately considered to have been made in a military factory in a manner of speaking. ABTOMAT
    No problem. I do believe that more light needs to shine on the obscure Type 59. These pictures are awesome and full of life during the otherwise gloomy Maoist regime.

    I think you might be right for Norinco. They might have a separate factory floor for civilian stuff, but then again, that's a mystery.

    Also, I am preparing an article on a PM-63 factory cutaway I just acquired. Do you think it is appropriate to post it in the Makarov Forum, since it is chambered for the same cartridge?

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    Also, I am preparing an article on a PM-63 factory cutaway I just acquired. Do you think it is appropriate to post it in the Makarov Forum, since it is chambered for the same cartridge?

    Meerkoos, when you have your article ready since it's chambered for the 9x18 mak round it's alright to post it here. Is this a Polish cutaway or one of the Chinese copies?
    Appalachain American

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meerkoos View Post
    As part of Soviet aid towards China, tooling and drawings of AKs, SKSs, RPDs, and Makarovs flooded the PRC in the 50-60s. The standard issue pistol of the PLA was the Type 51, a local Tokarev pistol copy. This was followed by a modified version, the Type 54 that had a redesigned slide and added a thumb safety. Both handguns were chambered for the 7.62x25mm cartridge.

    Several other types of pistols were also produced for police and military use, and the Type 59 was one of them. It never saw widespread use at the time since it was only produced for one year, so it was never caught on as the standard army pistol. The police however, kept on using old military stocks produced in Factory 626, as well as new production Norinco and Zhong Zhou-produced models for their use.

    Quality on all Makarovs are the same. One of the most difficult, and most overlooked features of the PM, was 100% complete interchangeability of parts, even between countries. This is something we take for granted today, but the amount of engineering and quality control this takes is colossal.

    However, in terms of fit and finish, Chinese-produced PMs are just as good as any other Soviet or Bulgarian Makarov.

    The PLA and police forces are now armed with the Type 92 handgun family. R&D started in 1994. The Type 92 drew inspiration from the M9 and USP pistols. There were three different variants of the Type 92, or QSZ-92 (QSZ is an acronym for "Light weapon, Pistol, Individual use"):

    -The QSZ-92-9, chambered in 9x19mm Parabellum, completed in 1998. Has a 15 round box magazine.

    -The QSZ-92-5.8, chambered in a proprietary bottlenecked, spitzer 5.8x21mm DAP-92 cartridge, ballistically similar to FN 5.7x28mm. The design was finalised in 2000. Since the DAP-92 cartridge is narrower, the same magazine can now accommodate 20 rounds.

    -The NP42, for the American export market, in 9x19mm or 5.8x21 DAP-92 chambering, finalised in 2004.

    If you want to know more about the QSZ-42, here is an excellent in-depth article of the history, development and features of the pistol.

    Meerkoos-


    Thanks. Pity that our firearms press hasn't been more informative about this gun. But I doubt there've been many to test. I've never seen one here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meerkoos View Post
    Cameron asked me some questions concerning Chinese Type 59s. Here is a copy of what I sent him, might interest you:

    True military Type 59s were manufactured by Factory 626 located in the city of Bei An, in the northern province of Hei Long Jiang. The plant was set up in November 1951.

    The Type 59 was only manufactured between 1959 and 1960 and issuing priority was given to officers and high command. Production was stopped for several reasons: poor quality Chinese Type 59 ammunition that lead to several accidents (failure to extract, overpressure, misfires...), lack of experience in complex machining which led to difficulties in production, and the degradation of Sino-Soviet relations around this time period. Type 59s were barely issued when the supply was cut off and pistols recalled.

    True military Type 59s have a characteristic grip shell with the shield embossed with five stars, hence its nickname, the "5-star gun" or "red star gun". The serial number pattern is a simple serial number followed by "Triangle 66" and "59-Type". The serial number pattern with letters are Norinco-commercialised civilian export versions.

    After the Clinton firearms import embargo, North Industries Co. (Norinco) turned its sights to China's neighbors for business. So this explains the large amount of Chinese firearms in Phillipino circulation. A large number of exports in the form of M4-style rifles have been reported. Undoubtedly, that's also how some NP19s ended up in abundance in these countries.

    As for the ZZ prefix, they stand for the Zhong Zhou machinery plant in the Henan province. They manufactured the handgun while Norinco commercialised them at a MSRP of $185. The first batches of export Type 59s were produced by Norinco in the 80s.

    Here are some rare pictures of true military Type 59s(click to enlarge)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks to Meerkoos for his exceptionally informative and interesting posts. The fresh information on Type 59s will be included in the Volume 2 of the Makarov pistol.
    co-author of The Makarov Pistol Soviet Union & East Germanyby Brown and White 2016
    Makarovbook.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron View Post
    The fresh information on Type 59s will be included in the Volume 2 of the Makarov pistol.
    Looks like you are keeping busy on the Chinese history, just finished reading your American Rifleman article on the Tokarev. Good Job !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M View Post
    Looks like you are keeping busy on the Chinese history, just finished reading your American Rifleman article on the Tokarev. Good Job !
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by TENNESSEEAN View Post
    Meerkoos, when you have your article ready since it's chambered for the 9x18 mak round it's alright to post it here. Is this a Polish cutaway or one of the Chinese copies?
    Haha! I wish I got my hands on a Type 82. I did find a lot of pictures of these rare birds in use. I can certainly include them in the article, as well as the history.

    The cutaway I have is an original Polish Radom cutaway. All matching (including magazine). Bought it from a disgruntled collector for next to nothing. It is missing some parts though. Will have to source them first and I will get the article started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Star View Post
    Meerkoos-
    Thanks. Pity that our firearms press hasn't been more informative about this gun. But I doubt there've been many to test. I've never seen one here.
    Thank you very much for your kind words Lone Star. Glad you liked the info!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron View Post
    Thanks to Meerkoos for his exceptionally informative and interesting posts. The fresh information on Type 59s will be included in the Volume 2 of the Makarov pistol.
    Very honoured to have helped in the book. Your work is probably one of the only good references to a most awesome pistol!
    Last edited by Meerkoos; 01-26-2017 at 06:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meerkoos View Post
    Cameron asked me some questions concerning Chinese Type 59s. Here is a copy of what I sent him, might interest you:

    True military Type 59s were manufactured by Factory 626 located in the city of Bei An, in the northern province of Hei Long Jiang. The plant was set up in November 1951.

    The Type 59 was only manufactured between 1959 and 1960 and issuing priority was given to officers and high command. Production was stopped for several reasons: poor quality Chinese Type 59 ammunition that lead to several accidents (failure to extract, overpressure, misfires...), lack of experience in complex machining which led to difficulties in production, and the degradation of Sino-Soviet relations around this time period. Type 59s were barely issued when the supply was cut off and pistols recalled.

    True military Type 59s have a characteristic grip shell with the shield embossed with five stars, hence its nickname, the "5-star gun" or "red star gun". The serial number pattern is a simple serial number followed by "Triangle 66" and "59-Type". The serial number pattern with letters are Norinco-commercialised civilian export versions.

    After the Clinton firearms import embargo, North Industries Co. (Norinco) turned its sights to China's neighbors for business. So this explains the large amount of Chinese firearms in Phillipino circulation. A large number of exports in the form of M4-style rifles have been reported. Undoubtedly, that's also how some NP19s ended up in abundance in these countries.

    As for the ZZ prefix, they stand for the Zhong Zhou machinery plant in the Henan province. They manufactured the handgun while Norinco commercialised them at a MSRP of $185. The first batches of export Type 59s were produced by Norinco in the 80s.

    Here are some rare pictures of true military Type 59s(click to enlarge)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    You stated that these were made only in 1959 and 1960, but the Chinese inscription in red on the first two photos says the example shown was made in 1962. The serial number in the 4,000,000 range would support it being made in the 4th year of production which is 1962 (2 million range - 1960, 3 million range - 1961). The last photo shows one with 4,000,000 range (1962) serial number on the frame and the mismatched slide in the 2,000,000 range (1960). The gun in the second to the last photo does not have a millionth digit, and perhaps is a very early example (also does not have a triangle around the "66"). I'm just mentioning this based on what is known about serial numbers for the Chinese Type 53 and Type 56 carbines (Type 53 = copy of Russian M1944 bolt action carbine, Type 56 carbine = copy of SKS).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meerkoos View Post

    True military Type 59s have a characteristic grip shell with the shield embossed with five stars, hence its nickname, the "5-star gun" or "red star gun". The serial number pattern is a simple serial number followed by "Triangle 66" and "59-Type". The serial number pattern with letters are Norinco-commercialised civilian export versions.
    I thought the military Type 59 grips were one star with wheat leaves around the edge, and a scale in the center of the star. Weren't the "five star/shield" grips for the police units?

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    I was very surprised to see 'Type 59' was not stamped in Chinese characters

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meerkoos View Post
    Cameron asked me some questions concerning Chinese Type 59s. Here is a copy of what I sent him, might interest you:

    True military Type 59s were manufactured by Factory 626 located in the city of Bei An, in the northern province of Hei Long Jiang. The plant was set up in November 1951.

    The Type 59 was only manufactured between 1959 and 1960 and issuing priority was given to officers and high command. Production was stopped for several reasons: poor quality Chinese Type 59 ammunition that lead to several accidents (failure to extract, overpressure, misfires...), lack of experience in complex machining which led to difficulties in production, and the degradation of Sino-Soviet relations around this time period. Type 59s were barely issued when the supply was cut off and pistols recalled.

    True military Type 59s have a characteristic grip shell with the shield embossed with five stars, hence its nickname, the "5-star gun" or "red star gun". The serial number pattern is a simple serial number followed by "Triangle 66" and "59-Type". The serial number pattern with letters are Norinco-commercialised civilian export versions.

    After the Clinton firearms import embargo, North Industries Co. (Norinco) turned its sights to China's neighbors for business. So this explains the large amount of Chinese firearms in Phillipino circulation. A large number of exports in the form of M4-style rifles have been reported. Undoubtedly, that's also how some NP19s ended up in abundance in these countries.

    As for the ZZ prefix, they stand for the Zhong Zhou machinery plant in the Henan province. They manufactured the handgun while Norinco commercialised them at a MSRP of $185. The first batches of export Type 59s were produced by Norinco in the 80s.

    Here are some rare pictures of true military Type 59s(click to enlarge)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Meerkoos ...
    ...
    There are two kinds of Maks with ZZs. One is ZZ in a triangle. The other one is ZZ before serial number. Can you tell us what is the difference between these two?
    Thanks a lot.
    Attachment 1908105

    Attachment 1908113

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryg View Post
    You stated that these were made only in 1959 and 1960, but the Chinese inscription in red on the first two photos says the example shown was made in 1962. The serial number in the 4,000,000 range would support it being made in the 4th year of production which is 1962 (2 million range - 1960, 3 million range - 1961). The last photo shows one with 4,000,000 range (1962) serial number on the frame and the mismatched slide in the 2,000,000 range (1960). The gun in the second to the last photo does not have a millionth digit, and perhaps is a very early example (also does not have a triangle around the "66"). I'm just mentioning this based on what is known about serial numbers for the Chinese Type 53 and Type 56 carbines (Type 53 = copy of Russian M1944 bolt action carbine, Type 56 carbine = copy of SKS).
    Interesting analysis ryg. Unfortunately, I cannot give a definitive answer to this. All of the sources point out that Type 59 production ceased in 1960. Was there another plant that produced pistols after 1960? Did Factory 626 keep producing after 1960? Did the serial number pattern reflect the year of production? We might never know. Another possibility is that the author of the picture used the same deduction as you. Is the 1959-1960 production year a hoax or a myth? I have as much if an idea as you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by chemcmndr View Post
    I thought the military Type 59 grips were one star with wheat leaves around the edge, and a scale in the center of the star. Weren't the "five star/shield" grips for the police units?
    I know that there are three variations of the Chinese Type 59 star: the military five-star shield, the export single star, and the special 八一 inside the shield (this was allegedly used in presentation or gift pistols). I have never heard of or seen the wheat leaves and scale version.

    Quote Originally Posted by pcke2000 View Post
    I was very surprised to see 'Type 59' was not stamped in Chinese characters
    One theory to this is the difficulty in producing letter stamps in Chinese. Since the USSR provided tooling and expertise, Factory 626 might have used alphabetical stamps for "式 in pinyin version.

    Quote Originally Posted by NewToMk View Post
    Meerkoos ...
    ...
    There are two kinds of Maks with ZZs. One is ZZ in a triangle. The other one is ZZ before serial number. Can you tell us what is the difference between these two?
    Thanks a lot.
    Attachment 1908105

    Attachment 1908113
    The pictures did not show up for me. I have no idea what difference there is between these two marking patterns. They are both produced from the same factory and commercialised by Norinco. Will try to answer this better when I see photos.

    Also, here are some more awesome photos of Type 59s:

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    Gorgeous example. One of the best I've ever seen.

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    Seems to be the same pistol taken in different places. Wear patterns and serial number look similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meerkoos View Post
    As part of Soviet aid towards China, tooling and drawings of AKs, SKSs, RPDs, and Makarovs flooded the PRC in the 50-60s. The standard issue pistol of the PLA was the Type 51, a local Tokarev pistol copy. This was followed by a modified version, the Type 54 that had a redesigned slide and added a thumb safety. Both handguns were chambered for the 7.62x25mm cartridge.

    Several other types of pistols were also produced for police and military use, and the Type 59 was one of them. It never saw widespread use at the time since it was only produced for one year, so it was never caught on as the standard army pistol. The police however, kept on using old military stocks produced in Factory 626, as well as new production Norinco and Zhong Zhou-produced models for their use.

    Quality on all Makarovs are the same. One of the most difficult, and most overlooked features of the PM, was 100% complete interchangeability of parts, even between countries. This is something we take for granted today, but the amount of engineering and quality control this takes is colossal.

    However, in terms of fit and finish, Chinese-produced PMs are just as good as any other Soviet or Bulgarian Makarov.

    The PLA and police forces are now armed with the Type 92 handgun family. R&D started in 1994. The Type 92 drew inspiration from the M9 and USP pistols. There were three different variants of the Type 92, or QSZ-92 (QSZ is an acronym for "Light weapon, Pistol, Individual use"):

    -The QSZ-92-9, chambered in 9x19mm Parabellum, completed in 1998. Has a 15 round box magazine.

    -The QSZ-92-5.8, chambered in a proprietary bottlenecked, spitzer 5.8x21mm DAP-92 cartridge, ballistically similar to FN 5.7x28mm. The design was finalised in 2000. Since the DAP-92 cartridge is narrower, the same magazine can now accommodate 20 rounds.

    -The NP42, for the American export market, in 9x19mm or 5.8x21 DAP-92 chambering, finalised in 2004.

    If you want to know more about the QSZ-42, here is an excellent in-depth article of the history, development and features of the pistol.
    I have a Norinco ZZ prefix Type 59 as well as an arsenal 66 Type 54 by Norinco. I was told that Norinco had to add the external safety to the Type 54 to be able to import them into the US.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Will762; 01-26-2017 at 11:23 PM.

  24. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will762 View Post
    I have a Norinco ZZ prefix Type 59 as well as an arsenal 66 Type 54 by Norinco. I was told that Norinco had to add the external safety to the Type 54 to be able to import them into the US.
    Attachment 1908449Attachment 1908457

    That's right, no safety no import.
    Appalachain American

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meerkoos View Post

    One theory to this is the difficulty in producing letter stamps in Chinese. Since the USSR provided tooling and expertise, Factory 626 might have used alphabetical stamps for "式 in pinyin version.

    .
    Thank you. It is indeed very interesting, since Chinese stamped 'Type 56' on Type 56 semi-auto and auto rifles receiver and 'Type 54' on Type 54 pistol slide in Chinese characters.

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    Meerkoos, I received two of these grips from China. The seller listed them as being for the military whereas the shield versions were meant for police

    Attachment 1909137

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemcmndr View Post
    I thought the military Type 59 grips were one star with wheat leaves around the edge, and a scale in the center of the star. Weren't the "five star/shield" grips for the police units?
    Yes, that is my understanding also. The Makarov with the seal of china in the grip is very rare. A few came out of the Vietnam war.While it has been posted before and there have been several discussions, I will post pictures of the military (PLA) version, FYI here.Attachment 1909585Attachment 1909593Attachment 1909601
    The star in a shield grips were police or border guards and the like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemcmndr View Post
    Meerkoos, I received two of these grips from China. The seller listed them as being for the military whereas the shield versions were meant for police

    Attachment 1909137
    Interesting. Unfortunately, I cannot see the picture. Please reupload or PM.

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    Meerkoos, can you see the photos and grips in post no. 27 ? Those are the PLA military grips found on Makarovs seized, mostly in Cambodia during the VN war.

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    Hello Meerkoos,
    thanks for the bunch of amaizing informations about the PLA 59 and its relatives... In a recent thread "a couple of ZZ series PLA59" I sent some pictures of these commercial pistols, one boxed with accessories, one unboxed, both German proofed in 1986.
    Now my question: as some of these ZZ series pistols are reported to have been found in Iraq, I'm wondering about the true "commercial" destination of these guns. I don't think that the Chinese government sent to "friend" armies true Chinese military weapons as they did many years ago in Vietnam. Do you think that these ZZ series were only sold commercially, or sometimes they were sent (maybe through a discrete broker) to armies of friend countries?
    Thank you so much for your opinion
    Fausto

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    [QUOTE=Meerkoos;6151225]"As part of Soviet aid towards China, tooling and drawings of AKs, SKSs, RPDs, and Makarovs flooded the PRC in the 50-60s. The standard issue pistol of the PLA was the Type 51, a local Tokarev pistol copy. This was followed by a modified version, the Type 54 that had a redesigned slide and added a thumb safety. Both handguns were chambered for the 7.62x25mm cartridge."

    I THINK YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THE ADDED SAFETY ON THE CHINESE TYPE 54. (see post #9 above)
    The type 54s brought back from the Vietnam war dated 64-67 do not have an added safety. These were added to exports to the US in the 80s -90s only, to comply with US laws.
    Otherwise I appreciate your wonderful details about the histories of the Makarov and tokarevs made in China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sksguide View Post
    Meerkoos, can you see the photos and grips in post no. 27 ? Those are the PLA military grips found on Makarovs seized, mostly in Cambodia during the VN war.
    Unfortunately sksguide, I can't. The pictures show up as "Attachement xxxxx". Very excited to se them though.

    Quote Originally Posted by fausto View Post
    Hello Meerkoos,
    thanks for the bunch of amaizing informations about the PLA 59 and its relatives... In a recent thread "a couple of ZZ series PLA59" I sent some pictures of these commercial pistols, one boxed with accessories, one unboxed, both German proofed in 1986.
    Now my question: as some of these ZZ series pistols are reported to have been found in Iraq, I'm wondering about the true "commercial" destination of these guns. I don't think that the Chinese government sent to "friend" armies true Chinese military weapons as they did many years ago in Vietnam. Do you think that these ZZ series were only sold commercially, or sometimes they were sent (maybe through a discrete broker) to armies of friend countries?
    Thank you so much for your opinion
    Fausto
    Aha. We are getting to the finer points of firearm economies. As an average Joe, I am happy to not know the true nature and destination of Chinese firearm exports. The best I can say, is that there were certainly legitimate exports aimed for civilian markets or recorded military aid, but naturally, there are always under-the-table "transfers". IMHO, the NP19s found in Iraq may very well be smuggled in, bought in, or bartered in. The likelihood of an illegal trade may be there, but as common citizens, there is no much we can or are supposed to know.

    [QUOTE=sksguide;6168945]
    Quote Originally Posted by Meerkoos View Post
    "As part of Soviet aid towards China, tooling and drawings of AKs, SKSs, RPDs, and Makarovs flooded the PRC in the 50-60s. The standard issue pistol of the PLA was the Type 51, a local Tokarev pistol copy. This was followed by a modified version, the Type 54 that had a redesigned slide and added a thumb safety. Both handguns were chambered for the 7.62x25mm cartridge."

    I THINK YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THE ADDED SAFETY ON THE CHINESE TYPE 54. (see post #9 above)
    The type 54s brought back from the Vietnam war dated 64-67 do not have an added safety. These were added to exports to the US in the 80s -90s only, to comply with US laws.
    Otherwise I appreciate your wonderful details about the histories of the Makarov and tokarevs made in China.
    Yes you are absolutely correct. I do not know much about Tokarevs as much as Makarovs . Will correct this immediately.

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    Is there any info about the numbers of this Model 59 imported into the US?

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    Thanks Meerkoos,
    what you suggest is exactly what I was thinking about... As for the two mint Chinese Makarov I got at a German auction in two separate occasions, it would be nice to know their true story...
    Fausto

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    Attachment 1911833meerkos
    lets see if you can see this photo. If you can I will post other pictures of this example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sksguide View Post
    lets see if you can see this photo.
    Didn't come up for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fausto View Post
    Thanks Meerkoos,
    what you suggest is exactly what I was thinking about... As for the two mint Chinese Makarov I got at a German auction in two separate occasions, it would be nice to know their true story...
    Fausto
    I have seen a less than a dozen come up on Hermann Historica for the past years or so. Did you bid from them? They do have wonderful items, like cutaway guns .

    If guns could talk, that would be awesome. Imagine the story of a Kar98k, or AK during the Yugoslavian Wars...

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    I've re-attached the photos from my earlier post now that I'm at a home computer, and not on my phone. I got two of these grips shipped to me from China. The seller in China said that the "wheat leaf" symbol grips were for the PLA Type 59, while the shield/star grips were for the police units.

    Attachment 1913353Attachment 1913361
    Last edited by chemcmndr; 01-28-2017 at 06:45 PM. Reason: photos

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemcmndr View Post
    I've re-attached the photos from my earlier post now that I'm at a home computer, and not on my phone. I got two of these grips shipped to me from China. The seller in China said that the "wheat leaf" symbol grips were for the PLA Type 59, while the shield/star grips were for the police units.

    Attachment 1913353Attachment 1913361
    If i can ask...How much did you pay ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemcmndr View Post
    I've re-attached the photos from my earlier post now that I'm at a home computer, and not on my phone. I got two of these grips shipped to me from China. The seller in China said that the "wheat leaf" symbol grips were for the PLA Type 59, while the shield/star grips were for the police units.

    Attachment 1913353Attachment 1913361
    I am really sorry, but I still cannot see the photos. Please PM them to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewToMk View Post
    If i can ask...How much did you pay ?

    About $65 for two grips shipped. They weren't in mint condition and you can see the one in the photos has a noticeable notch taken out of the front piece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemcmndr View Post
    About $65 for two grips shipped. They weren't in mint condition and you can see the one in the photos has a noticeable notch taken out of the front piece.
    Unfortunately I can't see the photos. Maybe try again..

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    Meerkoos...these are the pistols with ZZs
    Attachment 1913521
    Attachment 1913529

    Guys...why my pics don't show up? First time I have this problem.

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    Good gosh you guys, please google/bing/whatever "how to post photos in an online forum"

    geez already, I'd love to see these rare grips as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meerkoos View Post
    Interesting analysis ryg. Unfortunately, I cannot give a definitive answer to this. All of the sources point out that Type 59 production ceased in 1960. Was there another plant that produced pistols after 1960? Did Factory 626 keep producing after 1960? Did the serial number pattern reflect the year of production? We might never know. Another possibility is that the author of the picture used the same deduction as you. Is the 1959-1960 production year a hoax or a myth? I have as much if an idea as you do.
    I found the source of the first two photos with the Chinese caption in red: http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_8314879_1.html
    The source says accidents caused a stoppage in 1960 but production was resumed after the defect was corrected, and the pistol was used by "the public security system, internal forces and other units" for a long time. There is no reason to think that the caption in red in the photo is not authoritative (that the illustrated pistol was made in 1962).
    More regarding the millionth digit serial number: Type 53 carbines and Type 54 pistols which have both the date and the millionth digits in the serial number show that the serial number and dates are in sync. Type 53 carbines from arsenal 26 dated 1955 and 1956 have serials in the 3 million and 4 million range respectively (1953 is year 1). The Type 54 pistols from arsenal 66 dated 1967 have serials in the 14 million range, etc.(1954 is year 1). One would think the same applies with the Type 59 pistols.
    Last edited by ryg; 01-29-2017 at 01:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sksguide View Post
    Yes, that is my understanding also. The Makarov with the seal of china in the grip is very rare. A few came out of the Vietnam war.While it has been posted before and there have been several discussions, I will post pictures of the military (PLA) version, FYI here.Attachment 1909585Attachment 1909593Attachment 1909601
    The star in a shield grips were police or border guards and the like.
    Meerkoos et.al.
    FOR THOSE WHO CAN'T SEE THIS ATTACHMENT GO TO THE STICKY 'show us your best Makarovs' and find posting #82 on page 2.
    I have used the same method to post photos for years, but now with the new owners suddenly it does not work. So you can see it on the sticky. enjoy.

    Also look at post # 84 for the stars and shield grips .
    Last edited by sksguide; 01-29-2017 at 01:54 AM.

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