Early Berdan II?
Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Early Berdan II?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    813

    Default Early Berdan II?

    So this was brought to me today, this is Polish capture rifle, Imperial acceptance markings were removed on receiver which is consistent with couple of Polish capture rifles I saw before. However this one has no make and year markings on the barrel, which I find strange. No evidences of barrel being scrubbed, unlike receiver. Skimming through articles on Berdan, I found that Berdan I with no make markings were experimental rifles. But nothing on Berdan II. Very low serial number, could it be 1872 Tula or 1872 Izhevsk early production? What say you?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC04523.JPG   DSC04526.JPG   DSC04527.JPG   DSC04528.JPG   DSC04529.JPG   DSC04530.JPG  

    DSC04531.JPG   DSC04532.JPG  
    Last edited by Horilka; 02-14-2017 at 12:40 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Outer Mongolia
    Posts
    8,430

    Default

    Hello Horilka,

    Based on some apparent inconsistencies that appear in the photo, it looks to me as though the barrel engraving might have been lightly welded and then scrubbed?

    I marked up a copy of your photo. There are mottled blue-ish sections that might have been discolored from welding along with some pits where the engraving should be? It looks different enough to me to indicate a carefully reworked surface.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Berdan II Barrel Mkd.jpg 
Views:	104 
Size:	200.5 KB 
ID:	1964561

    Look at how smooth the contoured section of the barrel is below and around the serial number, then look at the rest of the section I have marked in gold.

    I certainly could be wrong, but I don't think so, at least based on your photos and the rest of the Russian markings scrubbed.

    Hope this helps!

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    813

    Default

    Thank you. However I don't think so. Mottled blueish sections are just the way light reflects in the pic, when I look at it in person it moves depending on angle of view see pic 4 where it's also visible in different place, though not so evident.

  4. Remove Advertisements
    GunBoards.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,743

    Default

    So do you have the bolt, does it match the gun? What do you think is the significance of the "J.E.B." initials, as they do not appear to be Cyrillic--a Polish inspector? Finnish? Or is this possibly an English BSA-made gun?
    I do agree with JPS, the area in front of the SN appears to have been scrubbed, the barrel in the photo appears to have random flat spots where letters were peened over.
    "Get your facts first and then you can distort 'em as much as you please"--Mark Twain

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    813

    Default

    Rifle is complete except cleaning rod, bolt mismatched but matches itself. IIRC first three years Berdan II rifles were made from parts from Germany, UK and Belgium (including barrels and receivers), so that is probably the source of J.E.B? However why so many Cyrillic markings on the part produced abroad? I'm not expert on Berdans, that's why I'm asking all these questions. I'm gonna try to make better pics tomorrow, I'm sure what you both see does not exist.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    12

    Default

    My berdan 2 is dated 1879 on the receiver and is inscribe with the Russian factory in front of the serial number and has volley sights on the from band

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Outer Mongolia
    Posts
    8,430

    Default

    The earliest example I have in my Collection is the only matching example of the Berdan II Infantry Rifle that I have come across. My Berdan II Cavalry Carbine, Dragoon Rifle, M1876 Bayonet Trials rifle and my Three-Line Berdan are ALL matching.

    I purchased this rifle at an Arms Faire in Belgium back in the late 1980s. It is from one of the early years of serial production having been manufactured in 1874.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Russian M1870 Berdan II Infantry Rifle - 001A.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	285.9 KB 
ID:	1967417

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	M1870 Berdan II Inf Rifle Action Matching 002A.jpg 
Views:	41 
Size:	309.7 KB 
ID:	1967425 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	M1870 Berdan II Infantry Rifle 003A.jpg 
Views:	40 
Size:	299.2 KB 
ID:	1967441 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	M1870 Berdan II Inf Rifle Rear Sight Mfg Matching Top 004A.jpg 
Views:	37 
Size:	213.6 KB 
ID:	1967433

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	M1870 Berdan II Inf Rifle Rec Detail Matching 006A.jpg 
Views:	36 
Size:	313.3 KB 
ID:	1967457 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	M1870 Berdan II Inf Rifle Rec Detail Eagle Matching 005A.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	179.4 KB 
ID:	1967449 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	M1870 Berdan II Inf Rifle Tula Mfg Match w 1874 007A.jpg 
Views:	41 
Size:	280.1 KB 
ID:	1967465

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	M1870 Berdan II Inf Rifle w M1870 Bayonet 008A.jpg 
Views:	34 
Size:	309.2 KB 
ID:	1967473

    All of the other Berdan II rifles in the Collection are marked in similar fashion.

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    813

    Default

    That is beautiful example of matching Berdan II.
    As for markings - I would not say that all of them were marked in similar fashion, IIRC Sesty and Izhevsk had serial at the end of roll-mark, while Tula in front. And Year-Serial-Make sequence was different at Izhevsk and Sesty. Also orientation of roll-mark was changed over the course of production. Also there's at least one picture of Berdan I with no markings.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3

    Default Berdan II

    Quote Originally Posted by Horilka View Post
    Rifle is complete except cleaning rod, bolt mismatched but matches itself. IIRC first three years Berdan II rifles were made from parts from Germany, UK and Belgium (including barrels and receivers), so that is probably the source of J.E.B? However why so many Cyrillic markings on the part produced abroad? I'm not expert on Berdans, that's why I'm asking all these questions. I'm gonna try to make better pics tomorrow, I'm sure what you both see does not exist.
    Berdan II production started 1871 at BSA, after that at Greenwood&Batley (they made machinery first to Tula). At Russia production started 1872, but it was totally based on imported components made in England, Belgium and Germany. Only assembling work was done in Russia. Manufacturing started at Tula 1873, Sestroretsk and Izevsk 1874. Factories still used imported components from abroad. Between 1874-78 barrels were imported from Belgium and Germany, alltogether 398200 barrels. (see more from book Military Rifles of Armies in Europe 1867-1886 by Paavo Raukko)

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    813

    Default

    I made couple of additional pictures. The mottled blue-ish sections are just the way patina built up and how it looks under the light. Geometrically surface is smooth and round, not distortions apart of small nicks. As you can see on last picture there are very similar patina.
    I think for unknown reason this rifle escaped roll-mark. Serial is close to rear sight - exactly how it placed at Tula factory, fond of serial is same as on 1880x Tulas, different from JPS's 1874 Tula, different from Sesty and Izhevsk.
    I guess I'll settle to "curio" label for this rifle, I doubt it's possible to know the real reason for missing roll-mark.





    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC04619s.jpg   DSC04623s.jpg   DSC04629s.jpg  

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Outer Mongolia
    Posts
    8,430

    Default

    Still looks scrubbed to me.

    All of the other Russian markings were scrubbed, so why not the barrel markings?

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    813

    Default

    There are evident traces of scrubbing where it was done. I saw another six Polish capture Berdans and all of them had scrubbed receivers with evident traces of scrubbing and all of them had barrel roll-marks intact.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC04526.JPG  

  14. #13
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is online now Super Moderator/Diamond Bullet member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Where HAL-9000 was built
    Posts
    8,099

    Default

    Berdan 2 production data according to L. Beskrovnyi. The data for the alleged production of Berdan 1 in Russia is incorrect, it is most likely also for Berdan 2:

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •