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Thread: C&R FFL License

  1. #46
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    Washington and Oregon do not honor a C&R license and do not allow a firearm to be mailed direct to your home. All transfers require a background check through a ffl dealer.

  2. #47
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    Well worth the minimum expense, in Texas.

    Just got my renewed 03 C&R yesterday. It was only four weeks from when I sent in the renewal application/form.
    The hardest thing was sending an informational letter to the local police, telling them that I was renewing the license.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCOV View Post
    Washington and Oregon do not honor a C&R license and do not allow a firearm to be mailed direct to your home. All transfers require a background check through a ffl dealer.
    I did not renew because it is worthless on the West Coast due to state laws. We got flooded by people from other places and this is what happened. When I was working, as a native born Oregonian I was definitely in a minority group. Last place I worked out of 15 people only 2 were born in Oregon.

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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogrunner View Post
    If you check closely you'll find that the turn in provision only applies to business entities...........ie: not C&R's....................check the ATF's website.
    Quote Originally Posted by melloyello View Post
    EXACTLY only for businesses not for Collectors..

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-...records-atf-if

    Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition and disposition records to ATF if they discontinue their collecting activity?

    No. Licensed collectors are not required to submit their records to ATF upon discontinuance of their collecting activity.
    [18 U.S.C. 923(g)(4); 27 CFR 478.127]
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaucho Gringo View Post
    I did not renew because it is worthless on the West Coast due to state laws. We got flooded by people from other places and this is what happened. When I was working, as a native born Oregonian I was definitely in a minority group. Last place I worked out of 15 people only 2 were born in Oregon.
    Sorry, but I am missing your point here. What is the point you are trying to make?

  6. #50
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    tldr other posts.

    I had a C&R once--I thought it was worth it. Now I am broke, in debt, penniless, and the happy owner of dozens of MILSURPs. I blame my current financial state on the economy and my poor disciplined use of credit cards. My wife blames my gun closet. Luckily, I still have my wife, even if I don't have my C&R.

    I did once worry about the slight possibility of Federal interference in my life, but I never saw an ATF agent. After I let the license laps I officially destroyed my records. I might have my old bound book in the bottom of my USN Issued Sea Bag, but officially, it is destroyed. I followed the record requirements when I let my license expire. Today, I do not know what your requirements are. I suggest that you do your research into the requirements before you get your C&R. I did not like the idea that I was open to ATF Inspection back then, so I let the C&R expire.

    I did put it to good use during the time I had a FFL 3 license. I even bought guns from members and sponsors of Gunboards. Having a C&R on file with Empire did make it easy to respond to Dennis' 24-hour quick email sales.

    Would I recommend that you get a FFL 3 C&R? Yes, if you do you research into the requirements and liabilities.
    Pat
    "I hear Mosins--They say 'Buy me!'"

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    '42 Izhevsk M91/30
    '43 Izhevsk M38
    '44 Izhevsk M91/59
    '44 Izhevsk NAGANT M1895
    '46 Izhevsk M44


  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconsofglory View Post
    I would say, yes, it is worth getting the C&R license. Good to use on auctions and other purchases that are on the C&R list. You will have to keep a firearms record book of some sort that shows acquisition and transfer info if ever asked. I keep it separate from private purchases or retail buys where I filled out a 4473 and they did a NICS check. It has helped me get through a few purchases.
    Just for clarification, and you probably know this, but if you buy a C&R eligible gun it has to go in your book even if you went through a NICS check. For instance if you bought a C&R eligible gun from a dealer that didn't know what a Type 03 FFL is and he did a NICS check it still goes in the book or if you bought a C&R gun face-to-face and the seller didn't care about the C&R FFL it still goes in the book.

    I asked ATF about a gun I bought that was eligible but I bought it face-to-face and didn't "use" my license to buy it. The way they explained it to me was there is no "using" or "not using" the license. You as a person are licensed, not any particular transaction, so all the eligible guns that come into your possession while you are a licensee must go in the book.

    I'm still not sure about eligible guns that I owned before getting my license. Or guns that I already own that become eligible during the period I am licensed. I suppose it can't hurt to put everything in the book since it is unlikely anybody will ever see it anyhow.

  8. #52
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    things must of changed since I got my first CCR 20 years ago on prints anyway mine on record with them and the state because of conceal carry permit what I like keeping it for besides carrying here in Fl. when you go buy a hand gun no waiting you leave with it after paperwork and payment

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonobadog View Post
    Just for clarification, and you probably know this, but if you buy a C&R eligible gun it has to go in your book even if you went through a NICS check. For instance if you bought a C&R eligible gun from a dealer that didn't know what a Type 03 FFL is and he did a NICS check it still goes in the book or if you bought a C&R gun face-to-face and the seller didn't care about the C&R FFL it still goes in the book.

    I asked ATF about a gun I bought that was eligible but I bought it face-to-face and didn't "use" my license to buy it. The way they explained it to me was there is no "using" or "not using" the license. You as a person are licensed, not any particular transaction, so all the eligible guns that come into your possession while you are a licensee must go in the book.

    I'm still not sure about eligible guns that I owned before getting my license. Or guns that I already own that become eligible during the period I am licensed. I suppose it can't hurt to put everything in the book since it is unlikely anybody will ever see it anyhow.

    Correct on the first and second paragraphs. You only put guns that "age into" CR status when you sell them.
    You don't log CR guns owned before your license. Only when you sell them. Put "owned prior to license" in the where acquired from box.
    Never log 01 guns in your 03 log. This is from ATF.
    Your 03 Bound Book is for C & R acquisitions and dispositions WHILE LICENSED.
    And we didn't blow up, so we got that going for us. Which is nice.

  10. #54
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    Thank you. And since I rarely sell anything, including guns, that will make the bookkeeping easier.

  11. #55
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    Rule #1 of collecting.......Never sell.


    Quote Originally Posted by nonobadog View Post
    Thank you. And since I rarely sell anything, including guns, that will make the bookkeeping easier.
    And we didn't blow up, so we got that going for us. Which is nice.

  12. #56
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    So there's no way period to use it in WA state.
    Last edited by Tinanzer87; 02-15-2017 at 10:38 PM.

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadhead View Post
    There are also a lot of dealers that won't accept a C&R license for what
    ever reason...
    Denny
    There are *NOT* a "lot" of dealers that will not honor a C&R license, but there are some (and they are idiots, pure and simple).
    Dennis Kroh,
    owner, EMPIRE ARMS

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinanzer87 View Post
    So there's no way period to use it in WA state.

    Not for purchase of a firearm. If you travel out of state like to Idaho maybe you could purchase a C&R firearm but I don't know for sure and keep in mind a ffl doesn't have to honor C&R license if they are not comfortable with the situation.

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by truckman View Post
    It is actually a CCR license for collector of curios and relics for your own use you can get buy selling one once in a while
    Buy and sell as many as you want as often as you want as long as the purpose of each C&R transaction is enhancing your collection. I bought mass quantities from Century, kept what I wanted and sold off the rest at a profit used to buy more C&Rs. The result after 22 years is about $34,000 worth of guns at a net cost (neglecting overhead, etc.) of zero.

    How many other hobbies pay for themselves?
    211 BC: I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Gnaeus Fulvius Centumalus Maximus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a denarius in any one day.

    2016 AD: To enhance our community's aggregate through multi-platform metrics of media synergy catalyzing integrated outcomes of macro-disciplines toward inclusive methodology paradigms generating positive algorithms of unwavering commitment to our children, the flag, and God.

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjk308 View Post
    Buy and sell as many as you want as often as you want as long as the purpose of each C&R transaction is enhancing your collection. I bought mass quantities from Century, kept what I wanted and sold off the rest at a profit used to buy more C&Rs. The result after 22 years is about $34,000 worth of guns at a net cost (neglecting overhead, etc.) of zero.

    How many other hobbies pay for themselves?
    Wow! This is exactly what a C&R license is NOT about.

  17. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonobadog View Post
    Wow! This is exactly what a C&R license is NOT about.
    I agree. If you were audited these transactions could be construed at "dealing" if this is the story you would share. There doesn't appear to be any mention of selling to enhance your collection. The law indicates that it is expected and understood that collectors will sell some C&R acquired weapons to enhance their collection. I have sold many over the years for this specific reason and can document my rationale should I be audited. But amassing large numbers of C&R weapons for the sole reason of selling them for a profit in the future is, certainly, not the intent of this license or the spirit of why it was passed into law. Regardless of what your intentions were at the time, it is more than likely that upon audit you might be in for a rude awakening. Many 03FFL license holders will warn against selling any C&R weapon. This is because, it seems, that every agent has a particular view and interpretation of the law and even the most honest collector could end up having difficulties. It's really up to the individual collector but, most will tell you, that you better have your ducks in a row if you are audited. You hear of very few 03FFL audits but that doesn't mean that you should not be careful in the decisions you make.

  18. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjk308 View Post
    Buy and sell as many as you want as often as you want as long as the purpose of each C&R transaction is enhancing your collection. I bought mass quantities from Century, kept what I wanted and sold off the rest at a profit used to buy more C&Rs. The result after 22 years is about $34,000 worth of guns at a net cost (neglecting overhead, etc.) of zero.

    How many other hobbies pay for themselves?


    You might want to read this - https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/gu...-sell-firearms

    You also might want to stop posting about your profit and start praying you never get audited.
    Sounds like a nice collection though. Audits are pretty rare so best wishes to you.

  19. #63
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    Default Turning in your bound book.

    Quote Originally Posted by bumpandrun View Post
    So, I dont need to turn it in to the atf when I let my license expire like a regular ffl?
    When you are sent your renewal for your license from the ATF it states that your "Bound Book" needs to be surrendered if not renewing.
    So if you let your license expire you do have to turn it in to the ATF.

    I know it is scary to think about a government entity having a list of your C&R purchases.
    I wonder what they do with these "Bound Books".

  20. #64
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    Hope you never get caught. Especially by a one in a thousand audit.

  21. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyGrampa View Post
    When you are sent your renewal for your license from the ATF it states that your "Bound Book" needs to be surrendered if not renewing.
    So if you let your license expire you do have to turn it in to the ATF.

    I know it is scary to think about a government entity having a list of your C&R purchases.
    I wonder what they do with these "Bound Books".
    Sir, I believe you are incorrect! Please refer to the below:

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-...records-atf-if

    Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition and disposition records to ATF if they discontinue their collecting activity?

    No. Licensed collectors are not required to submit their records to ATF upon discontinuance of their collecting activity.
    [18 U.S.C. 923(g)(4); 27 CFR 478.127]
    "

  22. #66
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    I've lost out on many fine deals on beautiful C&R eligible firearms because sellers don't know what a C&R license is. Or they have some other misconception even after having it explained to them.
    This happens at 01FFL dealers and private sellers at gun shows.

  23. #67
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    Since when do "States" not honor a C&R license? They don't buy or sell.

    Anyway that makes two more states I will never move into. The list keeps growing.

  24. #68
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    Sure seems like a lot of different rule changes and cloudy issues.
    So then if I don't renew my C&R I've stopped my collecting activities. Hence I keep my bound book.
    However when I did my last C&R renewal I am 100% positive the renewal form stated that the bound book needed to be sent to the ATF if the license is not being renewed.

    My question now is, is not renewing your license the same as "discontinuance of collecting activity"?

  25. #69
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    Right now they are evaluating and considering requiring all of your collector records to be submitted annually. This would kind of suck.

    https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-201...2016-29955.htm

  26. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonobadog View Post
    Right now they are evaluating and considering requiring all of your collector records to be submitted annually. This would kind of suck.

    https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-201...2016-29955.htm
    Wow! I have nothing to hide, but if they start doing that, I will not be getting my C&R!

  27. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyGrampa View Post
    My question now is, is not renewing your license the same as "discontinuance of collecting activity"?
    I suspect that means the same thing to ATF but for the rest of the world obviously anyone can collect firearms without a Type 03 FFL. You just buy them through a dealer.

    It is difficult to tell what they mean a lot of times. They have more lawyers than I do and they write funny.

  28. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonobadog View Post
    It is difficult to tell what they mean a lot of times. They have more lawyers than I do and they write funny.
    True on that! Especially the part about how they write funny!

  29. #73
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    I was audited a few years ago. Nice guy, examined my book, verified that the rifles were secure and pick a few random weapons and asked me to show them to him. Nice and easy. Now since I never sell anything, there was no question about the "Business" issue. Ike

  30. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by general ike View Post
    I was audited a few years ago. Nice guy, examined my book, verified that the rifles were secure and pick a few random weapons and asked me to show them to him. Nice and easy. Now since I never sell anything, there was no question about the "Business" issue. Ike
    What sort of requirements are there for being 'secure' ? I keep some guns out on display, not that a lot of people see them but I enjoy them.

  31. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonobadog View Post
    Right now they are evaluating and considering requiring all of your collector records to be submitted annually. This would kind of suck.

    https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-201...2016-29955.htm
    Not kinda suck. That would be maximum suckage right there.

    And that would be it for me and the C&R.

  32. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonobadog View Post
    You might want to read this - https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/gu...-sell-firearms

    You also might want to stop posting about your profit and start praying you never get audited.
    Sounds like a nice collection though. Audits are pretty rare so best wishes to you.
    Read it, carefully:

    Courts have identified several factors relevant to determining on
    which side of that line your activities may fall, including: whether
    you represent yourself as a dealer in firearms; whether you are
    repetitively buying and selling firearms; the circumstances under
    which you are selling firearms; and whether you are looking to make
    a profit. Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant
    indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a
    license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or
    two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

    The purpose of a C&R license is collecting. ALL OF MY ACTIVITY WAS DIRECTED AT BUILDING UP MY COLLECTION! I did not run a business with the intent of making a profit but bought and sold firearms solely to enhance my collection. This fits perfectly the definition of collecting and is an activity that every collector from the Smithsonian Institution to Granny and her Beany Babies takes part in.

    So stop trembling in fear every time you sell a C&R, please. If you enjoy getting scared I'm sure there's an M. Night Shyamalan movie playing at your local theater.
    211 BC: I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Gnaeus Fulvius Centumalus Maximus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a denarius in any one day.

    2016 AD: To enhance our community's aggregate through multi-platform metrics of media synergy catalyzing integrated outcomes of macro-disciplines toward inclusive methodology paradigms generating positive algorithms of unwavering commitment to our children, the flag, and God.

  33. #77
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    I still have mine....was going to let it expire but the wife made me renew it....how is that for a keeper.

    I just have not used it in a very long time.....IIRC they had it to where your book had to be on paper....have they changed that so you can keep your info in a digital format?

  34. #78
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    Nonobadog, not sure what the answer to that is. Very subjective, I guess. It was a while ago, I have no children in the house so is less security needed?? I have a big barking dog is that enough. Sorry I cannot answer that. IKe

  35. #79
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    I had my C&R for 6 years back during the golden age of C&R firearms. I spent a lot of money, ended up with a nice collection. The value of the collection is quite surprising. Mine was due to renew the month Obama got elected so I let it expire. I think I will get another one now that Trump and co are in power. I travel across country twice a year and come upon a nice rifle to fill a slot in my collection that I cannot buy. I will start the process right away....chris

    One thing I did run across back in the day. UPS at the Fort Worth office would not accept my C&R to ship a firearm. I think it was just the dip who worked there. Things may have changed as it was a long time ago....chris
    Last edited by coppertales; 02-17-2017 at 10:06 PM. Reason: add info

  36. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by coppertales View Post

    One thing I did run across back in the day. UPS at the Fort Worth office would not accept my C&R to ship a firearm. I think it was just the dip who worked there. Things may have changed as it was a long time ago....chris
    I had the same problem with UPS with C&Rs and antiques, too. Wrote a letter to their VP in charge of customer relations. Got back an apology and a request to ask for the supervisor if I had any more problems. I did, the supervisor walked out, pointed at me and told the clerk: "Do as he says. He knows a lot more about it than you do."
    211 BC: I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Gnaeus Fulvius Centumalus Maximus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a denarius in any one day.

    2016 AD: To enhance our community's aggregate through multi-platform metrics of media synergy catalyzing integrated outcomes of macro-disciplines toward inclusive methodology paradigms generating positive algorithms of unwavering commitment to our children, the flag, and God.

  37. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjk308 View Post
    I had the same problem with UPS with C&Rs and antiques, too. Wrote a letter to their VP in charge of customer relations. Got back an apology and a request to ask for the supervisor if I had any more problems. I did, the supervisor walked out, pointed at me and told the clerk: "Do as he says. He knows a lot more about it than you do."
    Same here. Had to unpack and show them the rifle once, refused to ship several times. Had the same thing at the PO, just flat refused, including the post master, until they could get in touch with a postal inspector.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
    befus

  38. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjk308 View Post
    I had the same problem with UPS with C&Rs and antiques, too. Wrote a letter to their VP in charge of customer relations. Got back an apology and a request to ask for the supervisor if I had any more problems. I did, the supervisor walked out, pointed at me and told the clerk: "Do as he says. He knows a lot more about it than you do."
    Forgot to mention, it was a long time ago, that when I was denied shipping a rifle back to the wholesaler, I had just picked up a rifle at the same time. UPS comes to my neighborhood while I was at work so I just rode my motorcycle, if the weather was nice, and picked the order up when the drivers returned to the warehouse. The route also passed my favorite Vietnamese restaurant so I always stopped to eat. When I brought up that I had just picked up a rifle from YOU about 5 minutes ago. Go figure.

  39. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyGrampa View Post
    However when I did my last C&R renewal I am 100% positive the renewal form stated that the bound book needed to be sent to the ATF if the license is not being renewed.
    100% incorrect. In small print, under the ATF Out-of_Business Records Center address on the second page in the "NOT RENEWING" section, there is text reading: "(Collector's of Curios or Relics are NOT required to send their firearms records to the ATF.)"

  40. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by amx4080 View Post
    100% incorrect. In small print, under the ATF Out-of_Business Records Center address on the second page in the "NOT RENEWING" section, there is text reading: "(Collector's of Curios or Relics are NOT required to send their firearms records to the ATF.)"
    Correct. It says in fine print exactly what you've printed there.
    And we didn't blow up, so we got that going for us. Which is nice.

  41. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by nextnick View Post
    it's easy, everything on-line, but fingerprints and dropping a copy of your application at local police. Good luck
    Wait, I was just about to go apply for a C&R license. D'oh! You need to submit fingerprints now?

  42. #86
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    Not that I am aware of. I applied at the beginning of the year and did not submit finger prints.

  43. #87
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    No fingerprints needed
    RIP Kevin Carney 10/3/14

    They'll always be a empty chair at the gunshows for you buddy.

  44. #88
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    I just got mine first time. No prints or picture needed.

  45. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domonlord View Post
    Wait, I was just about to go apply for a C&R license. D'oh! You need to submit fingerprints now?
    Fingerprints are only needed for an "01" FFL and maybe some other types such as "Manufacturer of Ammo or Destructive Devices", BUT NOT THE '03' (C&R) FFL...:-)

  46. #90

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    Well my application is in the mail and I keep checking to see if they withdrew the $30 or not. First time in my life I've actually looked forward to the government taking my money lmao.

    What do you guys use for a bound book? Looks like Amazon has a really nice fancy one for $20... still $20 lol. If I keep the C&R for 10+ years, I wouldn't mind getting a nice bound book.

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