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Thread: Who got the unaltered 1891

  1. #46
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    Give flickr a go, been using it for years . But at this point anything is better than photojunket.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitch5690 View Post
    I'll have to look into it 

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    Two questions, after looking at the pics: Is that a (possible) barrel indexing mark atop the barrel, and if so, is that found on unaltered rifles from 1894? I also noticed that the rear sight graduations were marked on the left side of the sight, it was always my understanding that Chatellerault placed those on the right side of the sight base. Was that not always true? In any case, it's a fascinating find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by No_0ne View Post
    Two questions, after looking at the pics: Is that a (possible) barrel indexing mark atop the barrel, and if so, is that found on unaltered rifles from 1894? I also noticed that the rear sight graduations were marked on the left side of the sight, it was always my understanding that Chatellerault placed those on the right side of the sight base. Was that not always true? In any case, it's a fascinating find.

    +1 that was always my understanding, been watching this one but the bad pics (all 4 of them) either cost the seller money , or where meant to hide some issues with the rifle.
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  5. #49
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    It isn't an 1891. It is an 1894 - 228250 is the serial and puts it squarely in 1894 known serial range.
    Still - nice gun. I bet JPS will be along to comment as he has the only quantity of similar early guns that I know of. You don't see these - ever!

  6. #50
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    Chatellerault barrel indexing is normal on top. And yes, original sight graduations should be on the right side of the rear base.
    Last edited by martin08; 02-19-2017 at 08:40 AM.

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin08 View Post
    Chatellerault barrel indexing is normal on top.
    Thanks, I had no idea where they put the index markings on those.

  8. #52
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    I've never had any trouble posting photos directly to this site without using any outside host. There is a learning curve but I figured it out easy enough, and I am over 70!

  9. #53
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    Yep i agree it is very simple. Just a hunch but i think this guy was trying to hide the full "originality" or lack there of the rifle. I mean the description is almost as bad if not worst.

    Quote Originally Posted by nwellons View Post
    I've never had any trouble posting photos directly to this site without using any outside host. There is a learning curve but I figured it out easy enough, and I am over 70!

  10. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by martin08 View Post
    Cocking knob should be numbered.
    martin08, where is this info from? I couldn’t find source that mention that original cocking knob must have a serial number on early (1894) mosins. 7.62x54r.net is showing that early cocking knob can be with and without serial number…

  11. #55
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    Id like to see this too!

  12. #56
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    Hello Gents,

    That's a very nice rifle, but most certainly it is not "unaltered."

    Martin is spot on regarding his critique. The top barrel band should have a swivel and the cocking knob on the bolt should be numbered as well and the magazine floor-plate has obviously been replaced. It would be nice to see the stock cartouche, which based on the excellent condition of what we can see, should be intact??? Does the date in the cartouche match the date on the barrel? Was the butt-plate replaced or the entire stock switched???

    With that said, it does appear to be in beautiful condition. Try finding any Chatellerault with an early flat sight leaf and a stock without a cross-bolt! That's a tall order that would very difficult to fill.

    I would have to assume that the final bidders who competed to run up the value that high must have asked for and received additional photos by email before deciding to go that high.

    In spite of the issues mentioned above, it's a once in a lifetime find. I've been collecting aggressively on both sides of the Atlantic for well over 30 years and have never come across another one like it.

    Congratulations to both the seller and the new owner!

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

  13. #57
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    Does anyone have a chat cocking knob? I guess I just don't recall seeing a numbered one.

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    My experience with original cocking knobs is that they are numbered on Russian rifles at least through 1913, and on Remington through 1918.

    I cannot say from first hand experience that this holds true for Chatellerault. But JPS does have at least one original Chatellerault bolt, and I'll have to defer to his observation.

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    I personally have an all original matching 1893 dragoon that doesn't have a numbered knob. I also have seen a few chat knobs but can't seem to remember a single one being numbered. U less they got scrubbed?

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  17. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitch5690 View Post

    That is a Chat cocking knob without number - I also have several with Chat marks but no number. I've never seen one with number.

    Sestroryetsks were numbered up to 1917. I have an all matching original (except floorplate) - and it is numbered.

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    I guess my question is has anyone seen one with? I think the numbered cocking knobs started and stopped at different dates.

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    With the general scarcity of original matching rifles before the late 1920's, I think it would be difficult to determine whether all cocking knobs were numbered, or if numbering started and stopped in intervals. I have three original matching early bolts, 95 Tula, 98 Tula and 13 Izhevsk. All have numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martin08 View Post
    With the general scarcity of original matching rifles before the late 1920's, I think it would be difficult to determine whether all cocking knobs were numbered, or if numbering started and stopped in intervals. I have three original matching early bolts, 95 Tula, 98 Tula and 13 Izhevsk. All have numbers.
    This is also a excellent point. You can't also just go off of parts either because they aren't dated.

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    THAT IS THE ABSOLUTELY LAMEST AUCTION I HAVE EVER SEEN. Something else is going on here which none of us are privy to. I mean who would spend 6 Grand on a rifle that doesn't even have picture? The auction ended 25 hours ago, and of the 24 bids, there were only 3 total people bidding. Only 6 total inches of the rifle are shown. This is a disguised Drug Deal..!!

    Come on man,,,the Seller has 20 pages of feedback,
    and this is the first thing he has ever sold...!!! No wonder he can't put together an Auction worth Doggie Dooo..!!! Shady,,,shady,,,shady....!!!!

  22. #66
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    Being one of the three people bidding I had more pictures than given. He was also very quick to reply to every question. I Was perfectly fine to make a gamble on a rifle with a return policy.lol

  23. #67
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    Tough gun. Obviously the buyer took a chance and either got a home run or a good stand up triple. He will find out when it arrives I'm sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaxspore View Post
    Yep i agree it is very simple. Just a hunch but i think this guy was trying to hide the full "originality" or lack there of the rifle. I mean the description is almost as bad if not worst.
    Quote Originally Posted by Targetmaster View Post
    THAT IS THE ABSOLUTELY LAMEST AUCTION I HAVE EVER SEEN. Something else is going on here which none of us are privy to. I mean who would spend 6 Grand on a rifle that doesn't even have picture? The auction ended 25 hours ago, and of the 24 bids, there were only 3 total people bidding. Only 6 total inches of the rifle are shown. This is a disguised Drug Deal..!!

    Come on man,,,the Seller has 20 pages of feedback,
    and this is the first thing he has ever sold...!!! No wonder he can't put together an Auction worth Doggie Dooo..!!! Shady,,,shady,,,shady....!!!!
    The guy has an immaculate, spotless reputation and draws such bids because of it. I recognized his name the nanosecond the auction webpage loaded. IIRC he's a past president of the NAPCA. Don't think he knows rifles that well, as his interest has always been auto-pistols. To disparage his name only shows yourselves to be . . . . . . . let's just say less than sentient beings.

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  25. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin08 View Post
    My experience with original cocking knobs is that they are numbered on Russian rifles at least through 1913, and on Remington through 1918.

    I cannot say from first hand experience that this holds true for Chatellerault. But JPS does have at least one original Chatellerault bolt, and I'll have to defer to his observation.

    Hello Gents,

    I have quite a few Chatellerault's, but everything is still in storage and I'm not 100% certain that the Chatellerault cocking knobs were numbered? The library is in storage as well, so I don't have access to Karl Heinz's books at the moment either?

    Someone out there must have a copy of Drei Linien: die Gewehre Mosin-Nagant handy?

    Over time they stopped serializing the cocking knobs, but I can't say with certainty whether or not Chatellerault knobs were stamped?

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

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    As a second bidder let me assure everybody that all my questions were answered properly, it is a legit rifle.

  27. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlimTim View Post
    The guy has an immaculate, spotless reputation and draws such bids because of it. I recognized his name the nanosecond the auction webpage loaded. IIRC he's a past president of the NAPCA. Don't think he knows rifles that well, as his interest has always been auto-pistols. To disparage his name only shows yourselves to be . . . . . . . let's just say less than sentient beings.

    SlimTim
    Sir i was going by his auction description more than his pics. I dont know him from adam..he may not be the most techy person so i can forgive 4 pics but come on... he has less than two sentances of description.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuriman View Post
    As a second bidder let me assure everybody that all my questions were answered properly, it is a legit rifle.
    Tough break! Perhaps the winner may also be aware of this thread and post some clear pics. Definitely worth a closer look.

  29. #73

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    I have 4 Chatel rifles and 3 spare Chatel matching bolts I've collected over the years, none of the cocking knobs is stamped with the serial number (most have "C" in the circle mark and I think one or two have "L" in a shield), will look at the pics in my "Drei Leinen" but I cannot read german, if anybody wants to translate I can post a copy of the page(s)

  30. #74

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    The saddest part is that looking at the last few GB purchases of the winning bidder I am not even sure that he collects Mosins or russian weapons but I hope to see the proper pics as well..

  31. #75
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    You bridge gaps with rifles such as these. Falls into a French collector's realm, a Russian collector's realm, in addition to other broader forms of collecting categories; pre-WWI, Pre-1898, etc, etc.
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  32. #76

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    I guess...will just eat more ice cream and cuddle with my other rifles for now )

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuriman View Post
    I guess...will just eat more ice cream and cuddle with my other rifles for now )
    Seems you have nice a collection going on! Can't say I've seen pictures!!! (Hint hint)

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    Btw my father was the one who bought the rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitch5690 View Post
    Btw my father was the one who bought the rifle.
    Is he a member here? I hope he or you will post more pics when it shows up.
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  36. #80
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    No, I'll be the in between. He's not internet savey. Though I should convince him to sign up. If only there was a colt/ high standard .22 section lol

    pics will def come

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitch5690 View Post
    No, I'll be the in between. He's not internet savey. Though I should convince him to sign up. If only there was a colt/ high standard .22 section lol
    He was savvy enough to buy it on GunBroker.

  38. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitch5690 View Post
    Btw my father was the one who bought the rifle.
    So your dad outbid you?
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    When did they start installing upper handguards on Chat rifles? I have an 1893 Chat. It does not have an upper handguard and has the barrel bands for no handguard. The magazine has the forward sling swivel. There is not swivel on the upper band but there is plenty of space for one. My rifle has an Izzy bolt numbered to the rifle. It has the curved rear sight also.....The rifle is buried in the rear safe so I cannot pull it out to look for further details. Bluing looks good all over....chris

  40. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaxspore View Post
    Sir i was going by his auction description more than his pics. I dont know him from adam..he may not be the most techy person so i can forgive 4 pics but come on... he has less than two sentances of description.

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    Tim has a damn near photographic memory when it comes to sellers and their reputations. You can take his word as bond in my experience Spax.
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  41. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitch5690 View Post
    Does anyone have a chat cocking knob? I guess I just don't recall seeing a numbered one.
    Mitchel, I have a Chatellerault cocking knob we can use for reference. But it doesnt have any numbers on it. Here's some pics though.





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  42. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuriman View Post
    I have 4 Chatel rifles and 3 spare Chatel matching bolts I've collected over the years, none of the cocking knobs is stamped with the serial number (most have "C" in the circle mark and I think one or two have "L" in a shield), will look at the pics in my "Drei Leinen" but I cannot read german, if anybody wants to translate I can post a copy of the page(s)
    I think i've owned two Chat cocking knobs, one had the (L) on the back i believe, and the one i have now, has a "W" inside the knob, and on the back, as well as the usual (c)

    Mosin Nagant's/C&R Guns I own:
    1913 Winchester M1897 12GA Takedown
    1915 Finn N.E.W. M91
    1916 Russian Contract Winchester 1895 7.62x54r
    1916 BSA Enfield No1 MKiii* SHTLE
    Bohler-Stahl M24
    1931 Tikka M27
    1932 Tikka M28
    1934 Sako M28/30
    1939 Erma RC Mauser 98k
    1941 Tula SVT-40
    1941 Swiss K-31
    1943 Izhevsk M38
    1943 Izhevsk 91/30 PU Sniper
    1952 Izhevsk Tokarev TT-33
    1954 HRA CMP M1 Garand
    1957 Tula SKS
    1968 "late date" Finnish M39

  43. #87
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    Most likely pics were requested, and emailed.

  44. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by mat!_SW View Post
    So your dad outbid you?

    I bid bid up to 1200 bucks and didn't hit reserve. Over the next few days it was bid up to 2500 without reserve by Yuri. My father and I were talking about it over lunch and told me to show him the post and it went from there kinda thing.

  45. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitch5690 View Post
    I bid bid up to 1200 bucks and didn't hit reserve. Over the next few days it was bid up to 2500 without reserve by Yuri. My father and I were talking about it over lunch and told me to show him the post and it went from there kinda thing.
    Penny start with a >$2500 reserve. What a waste of people's time.

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