Original Mosin Nagant M91/30 rifle with folding bayonet
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Thread: Original Mosin Nagant M91/30 rifle with folding bayonet

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    Default Original Mosin Nagant M91/30 rifle with folding bayonet

    I konw that there are some stories on those and that most consider it a fake - I would had followed that assumption, if it hadn't been for a batch of about 30-40 rifles which had turned up from a governmental arsenal in Eastern European countries. Asking some friends I quickly decided to do a group buy to also have the possibility to compare them. Every rifle is all matching numbers (bolt, barrel, magazine floorplate, buttplate), every rifle dates to 1943. And the manufacturer is Ishevsk on all of them and they are not of the same letter prefix. So my best guess is that those rifles were the original trial rifles for the M44 with the folding bayonet.

    I also did some comparison pictures with a M44 rifle I had at hand. See how the bayonet is shorter and the different style of attaching it to the barrel. Sorry on the poor quality of the pictures, those were just some quick pictures with my mobile after unpacking them and having only a quick look. I will do better ones, if there is interest in it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails mn01.jpg   mn02.jpg   mn03.jpg   mn04.jpg   mn05.jpg   mn06.jpg  

    mn07.jpg  

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    Very interesting! I'm curious to see what more knowledgeable people have to say. One question though, did you get enough that you might let one go in the future?


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    Fantastic!

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    IIRC, there have been rumors, and I believe a member posted on these quite a while back(I think he has a pic holding one). Very different and very cool.

    Pahtu.

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    That's what I'm wondering. I'd love to buy one. Very awesome find.

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    From a practical standpoint I can't imagine how hideously front-heavy they'd be. An M44 is bad enough, but with the 91/30 being longer the lever effect would make it worse.

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    Assuredly different lug attachments. Wowser.

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    Unless I'm looking at these wrong, they're the experimental removable folding bayonets. If this is the case, what we have here is a batch of experimental bayonets, not experimental rifles. That being said, the rifles being original matching still makes them very desireable in and of themselves.

    Are the bayonets serial matched to the rifles?

    There were experimental intermediate length rifles made in, I believe, 1944 which had a non-removable bayonet similar to that of the M44.







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    M91/30's like these with side folding bayonets are described on pg 51 of Alexander Yuschenko's (Ratnik) book. Several European members of one of my Facebook groups have posted recently about these rifles coming available "somewere in Europe" soon. Alex is a member of this group and has confirmed that they are a legit variation. It would be great if they made it across the Atlantic but I won't hold my breath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Lord View Post
    M91/30's like these with side folding bayonets are described on pg 51 of Alexander Yuschenko's (Ratnik) book. Several European members of one of my Facebook groups have posted recently about these rifles coming available "somewere in Europe" soon. Alex is a member of this group and has confirmed that they are a legit variation. It would be great if they made it across the Atlantic but I won't hold my breath.
    Yep, sure look to be the same. Alex makes no mention of these showing up in 1943, hopefully he will comment on the thread.

    If they are indeed the removable type bayonet, it may be difficult to clarify exactly what's going on unless they are serialled. Regardless, this is an outstanding group of rifles.







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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    Yep, sure look to be the same. Alex makes no mention of these showing up in 1943, hopefully he will comment on the thread.

    If they are indeed the removable type bayonet, it may be difficult to clarify exactly what's going on unless they are serialled. Regardless, this is an outstanding group of rifles.
    My book conatins information about 1943 production. 10000 were ordered in December 1943, and 10000 in January 1944. Possibly some quantity was produced before and after these months
    Fantastic find!
    Please post more pictures. I'm wondering are these rifles factory matching?
    In fact, these bayonets are detachable, they are locked with pin. So they can be installed at any rifle. Judging from posted pictures pin is not locked

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    Fan Freaking Tastic find!!

    Are the stock inlet-ed at all for the bayonet like an M44 stock?
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    While not an expert, it would appear to be very worthy of continued discovery, and if confirmed, an exceptional find.
    befus

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    I read about these in Ratniks book, but boy I never thought I'd see any of these other than a picture in the book. Exceptional find!

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    Wiping off oil and comparing it to a normal M91/30 it appears the stock is inletted for the bayonet too - and the bayonet is indeed fixed with a metal pin in place and should be removeable. I also did some pictures of all markings I could find for the moment, those include some smaller inspection marks on the bayonet (which is not serialized, by the way - none of the five are). And I did some pictures of the serial number covering the last two digits of the serial. The barrel markings are identical on all rifles, except for a different serial number.

    Sorry guys, see where I come from: all items are in Europe. And to import an item to the US without having to importer mark it would require you personally to pick them up in Europe and fly back home with it (of course on top of the import permit). Hence I believe it doesn't make too much sense.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_7118.jpg   IMG_7117.jpg   IMG_7116.jpg   IMG_7114.jpg   IMG_7113.jpg   IMG_7112.jpg  

    IMG_7111.JPG   IMG_7110.JPG   IMG_7109.jpg  

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    Wow the plot thickens! Those are really cool. Nice pics too!
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    I am amazed that you were able to get these, especially in a batch. Thanks for posting and I'm looking forward to hearing more in this thread.

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    Holy Moly!!! I'd love to have one of those. What a find(s).

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    Amazing find. Rifle looks very close to original expect for some buffing on the bolt and rebluing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    Unless I'm looking at these wrong, they're the experimental removable folding bayonets...
    On the so-called M44L the bayonets are not removable. I held one of these in my hands. The rifle is not "hideously front-heavy" at all. Very handy I might say - shorter than obr. 91/30, longer than obr. 1944.
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    OOhhh I'd love ta have one !!!

    Thanks for posting and pic's Dave!!!

    Frantz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pointyears View Post
    From a practical standpoint I can't imagine how hideously front-heavy they'd be. An M44 is bad enough, but with the 91/30 being longer the lever effect would make it worse.
    Would it really be all that much worse than the contemporary Soviet standard practice of having the extended bayonet attached to the rifle 100% of the time?

    At least with the folder, it would likely be carried in its folded state some of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronbo6 View Post
    Would it really be all that much worse than the contemporary Soviet standard practice of having the extended bayonet attached to the rifle 100% of the time?

    At least with the folder, it would likely be carried in its folded state some of the time.
    The Soviet troops had a fairly high loss rate for 91/30 bayonets. I would assume that was a big part of having the attached, folding bayonet.
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    This batch of rifles is one of the better finds I've seen posted recently. Who would have thought so many of these bayonets still existed in this condition?







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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronbo6 View Post
    Would it really be all that much worse than the contemporary Soviet standard practice of having the extended bayonet attached to the rifle 100% of the time?

    At least with the folder, it would likely be carried in its folded state some of the time.
    I was thinking for modern shooting, but you make a good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFromSheffield View Post
    I konw that there are some stories on those and that most consider it a fake - I would had followed that assumption, if it hadn't been for a batch of about 30-40 rifles which had turned up from a governmental arsenal in Eastern European countries. Asking some friends I quickly decided to do a group buy to also have the possibility to compare them. Every rifle is all matching numbers (bolt, barrel, magazine floorplate, buttplate), every rifle dates to 1943. And the manufacturer is Ishevsk on all of them and they are not of the same letter prefix. So my best guess is that those rifles were the original trial rifles for the M44 with the folding bayonet.

    I also did some comparison pictures with a M44 rifle I had at hand. See how the bayonet is shorter and the different style of attaching it to the barrel. Sorry on the poor quality of the pictures, those were just some quick pictures with my mobile after unpacking them and having only a quick look. I will do better ones, if there is interest in it.

    Hey, do you mind if I use some of your photos in my blog? There is a link in my sig line. Thank you very much for sharing your find.


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    Finally the promised pictures in better quality, sorry for the previous poor mobile phone pictures.

    And no, I would not want my pictures to be found on a blog which consists mainly of random gun in groups pictures - thank you for your understanding. I however have no problem in providing them for educational purpose, such as websites dedicated to identification and giving a bit more historic background, or books.

    Edit: last two digits of the serial number were digitally removed in those pictures, in case someone was wondering..
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails folding01.jpg   folding02.jpg   folding03.jpg   folding04.jpg   folding05.jpg   folding06.jpg  

    folding07.jpg   folding08.jpg   folding09.jpg   folding10.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFromSheffield View Post
    Wiping off oil and comparing it to a normal M91/30 it appears the stock is inletted for the bayonet too - and the bayonet is indeed fixed with a metal pin in place and should be removeable. I also did some pictures of all markings I could find for the moment, those include some smaller inspection marks on the bayonet (which is not serialized, by the way - none of the five are). And I did some pictures of the serial number covering the last two digits of the serial. The barrel markings are identical on all rifles, except for a different serial number.

    Sorry guys, see where I come from: all items are in Europe. And to import an item to the US without having to importer mark it would require you personally to pick them up in Europe and fly back home with it (of course on top of the import permit). Hence I believe it doesn't make too much sense.
    Excellent find. These are beautiful!
    Looking for Mosin 91/30 bayonet ГС4625. Will pay well!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratnik View Post
    My book conatins information about 1943 production. 10000 were ordered in December 1943, and 10000 in January 1944. Possibly some quantity was produced before and after these months
    Fantastic find!
    Please post more pictures. I'm wondering are these rifles factory matching?
    In fact, these bayonets are detachable, they are locked with pin. So they can be installed at any rifle. Judging from posted pictures pin is not locked
    I should update my post. December 1943 order contained 5000 rifles with folding bayonet

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    Just wonderful addition to the knowledge base thank you.
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    Can anyone confirm if it is possible to pick up purchases in Europe (specifically Germany and Finland) in person and fly back with them? Would this actually avoid having to deal with import stamps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by capt14k View Post
    Can anyone confirm if it is possible to pick up purchases in Europe (specifically Germany and Finland) in person and fly back with them? Would this actually avoid having to deal with import stamps?

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    That's a HUGE no to everything you outlined. Absolutely no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by USMCsean View Post
    That's a HUGE no to everything you outlined. Absolutely no.
    I didn't think so. The only reason I asked was post #15 paragraph 2. I will stick to my current plan of getting my rifles home.


    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFromSheffield
    Sorry guys, see where I come from: all items are in Europe. And to import an item to the US without having to importer mark it would require you personally to pick them up in Europe and fly back home with it (of course on top of the import permit). Hence I believe it doesn't make too much sense.
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    Having sold modern pistols last year to someone from the US who had picked them up in person I can confirm once more what I told: they don't need to be import marked this way, and it turned out to be cheaper than to have them shipped (as long as you're using an airline who also transports guns and is doing a direct flight without stops in other countries) .. you however have to fill all import things in advance and need to use an official importer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFromSheffield View Post
    Having sold modern pistols last year to someone from the US who had picked them up in person I can confirm once more what I told: they don't need to be import marked this way, and it turned out to be cheaper than to have them shipped (as long as you're using an airline who also transports guns and is doing a direct flight without stops in other countries) .. you however have to fill all import things in advance and need to use an official importer.
    That sounds a little more convincing than the "absolutely not" answer above without explanation. If you could get some details that would be great because I would much rather pick up in person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by capt14k View Post
    That sounds a little more convincing than the "absolutely not" answer above without explanation. If you could get some details that would be great because I would much rather pick up in person.

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    Highly doubt and FFL importer would just let the end customer just fly to get their gun while all the legal paperwork has the FFL importer on the hook if anything goes sour. C&R holder cannot import military surplus C&Rs themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyesis View Post
    Highly doubt and FFL importer would just let the end customer just fly to get their gun while all the legal paperwork has the FFL importer on the hook if anything goes sour. C&R holder cannot import military surplus C&Rs themselves.
    Yes I thought about that. Also can't be done in Germany so doesn't matter anyways. I am curious about Finland and antique receiver Finnish Mosin.

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    I've been told that this is an excempt possibility and not depending upon FFL, C&R or whoever, the important thing is that it is a collectible item and brought in person. I honestly don't care about that since this is not my problem, but at least I don't state "impossible" without giving reasons.

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    What value would you guys put on such folding bayonet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFromSheffield View Post
    I've been told that this is an excempt possibility and not depending upon FFL, C&R or whoever, the important thing is that it is a collectible item and brought in person. I honestly don't care about that since this is not my problem, but at least I don't state "impossible" without giving reasons.
    I'm with you on this one. Until one of the naysayers can prove it isn't possible I will look for the possibility.

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    CaptK....post that as a separate thread. I bet you will get some answers from guys who have actually done it if it is possible. I know there are members here who own guns that are not importable commercially(Russian Drags etc). Worth checking out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman View Post
    CaptK....post that as a separate thread. I bet you will get some answers from guys who have actually done it if it is possible. I know there are members here who own guns that are not importable commercially(Russian Drags etc). Worth checking out.
    Good idea. From Germany it is not possible but it maybe from Finland and someone may know how. Thx

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    DaveFromSheffield - could you please post a clear close-up pic of the stock notch with the bayo extended? Thank you

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    It seems the inletting is not following a strict pattern, comparing the inetting on two rifles.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_7198.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyesis View Post
    What value would you guys put on such folding bayonet?
    I recently spent an absolutely retarded amount of money on one. So much I don't even care to disclose for fear of all the shit I will get from other members. I'm happy with the purchase though I may regret it once these bayonets start making their way here in more quantity - and I absolutely believe you are about to see that happen relatively soon.
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