Original Mosin Nagant M91/30 rifle with folding bayonet - Page 2
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Thread: Original Mosin Nagant M91/30 rifle with folding bayonet

  1. #46
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    OP, if there is any way to get one of those guns here to the U.S., I'd be happy to pay handsomely and cover all the costs.
    ISO ----- 91rv, 24rv, SA or SkY marked Beretta M34 or M35, Finn marked Cz 24. Ka3 marked Mosins $$$$, an early Mosin dragoon stock with handguard, 28/30 CG unit marked 106207, Gulkevich bayonet, St. Petersburg Cavalry carbines, M27, m27 bayo, true Cossack shashkas/kindjals, slider for an early flat rear Mosin sight leaf. Slider for a St. Petersburg Cavalry carbine, Model 1907 mosins, m27rv, Cossack blood or tears, the ark of the covenant and one unicorn horn.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pet_My_Mosin View Post
    OP, if there is any way to get one of those guns here to the U.S., I'd be happy to pay handsomely and cover all the costs.
    Since they are not in a serial block, I'd suggest you to get a 1943 dating rifle, reproduce the indent in the stock and get a bayonet for it (I'd be keen to find out what you paid for your bayonet! You might want to let me know via PM, if you don't want to post it here?). That is definitely easier than to get a complete rifle to the US.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFromSheffield View Post
    Since they are not in a serial block, I'd suggest you to get a 1943 dating rifle, reproduce the indent in the stock and get a bayonet for it (I'd be keen to find out what you paid for your bayonet! You might want to let me know via PM, if you don't want to post it here?). That is definitely easier than to get a complete rifle to the US.
    Sure thing. PM inbound.
    ISO ----- 91rv, 24rv, SA or SkY marked Beretta M34 or M35, Finn marked Cz 24. Ka3 marked Mosins $$$$, an early Mosin dragoon stock with handguard, 28/30 CG unit marked 106207, Gulkevich bayonet, St. Petersburg Cavalry carbines, M27, m27 bayo, true Cossack shashkas/kindjals, slider for an early flat rear Mosin sight leaf. Slider for a St. Petersburg Cavalry carbine, Model 1907 mosins, m27rv, Cossack blood or tears, the ark of the covenant and one unicorn horn.

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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFromSheffield View Post
    Since they are not in a serial block, I'd suggest you to get a 1943 dating rifle, reproduce the indent in the stock and get a bayonet for it (I'd be keen to find out what you paid for your bayonet! You might want to let me know via PM, if you don't want to post it here?). That is definitely easier than to get a complete rifle to the US.
    Dave your inbox is full

  6. #50
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    Sorry, emptied.

  7. #51
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    Bam! These rifles just arrived at retail in Canada. A company called TradexCanada appears to have bought the remaining ones form the batch and they just arrived in country. I just ordered one, will post photos when it gets here. Supposedly NOT IMPORT MARKED (sorry to rub that in...)

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claven2 View Post
    Bam! These rifles just arrived at retail in Canada. A company called TradexCanada appears to have bought the remaining ones form the batch and they just arrived in country. I just ordered one, will post photos when it gets here. Supposedly NOT IMPORT MARKED (sorry to rub that in...)
    Congrats! Price?
    Purists of the world, unite!

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
    Samuel Adams

  9. #53
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  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooTallDean View Post

    looks like one crate worth

  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyesis View Post
    looks like one crate worth
    They started listing stock quantities at 29 rifles, as of now, a couple hours later, down to 6. The ad was up for a while before the limited stock numbers started showing, I'm guessing 40 or 50 rifles were procured.

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claven2 View Post
    Bam! These rifles just arrived at retail in Canada. A company called TradexCanada appears to have bought the remaining ones form the batch and they just arrived in country. I just ordered one, will post photos when it gets here. Supposedly NOT IMPORT MARKED (sorry to rub that in...)
    You lucky dog!

    Post lots of pics when you get it.







  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    You lucky dog!

    Post lots of pics when you get it.
    already sold out. That was fast, less than a day in our small market.

  14. #58
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    Now shows 1 remaining (Claven posted while I was typing- all gone)! I'm fortunate to have been tipped off by a friend and got one of them. Would have been a drag to wake up tomorrow and read about it. Now just a few days wait for the friendly mailman.

    Ruprecht

  15. #59
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    Here's mine. Sorry for the crummy light, it's getting dark out.

    I haven't really cleaned this yet, just a light wipe down. I need to give it a good cleaning and inspection, likely tomorrow. So this is out of the box, wiped down quickly with an old T-shirt.

    The base rifle is not unaltered. There is a shallow dish sanded or milled into the side of the stock, just aft of the rear band to make room for the tip of the bayonet. I expect this was done when the rifle was made.

    Mine has a coat of shellac on it, but based on some exposed areas, it looks like it originally only had an oil finish and the shellac was added some time later, presumably as a preservative or some sort. If it's been re-blued, nothing was buffed or cleaned first and it was a hot dip of the barrelled action. IF. There's no evidence of actual use anywhere on the rifle, no nicks, dings, rough handling marks, dings in the metal beyond the rough manufacturing marks, etc. There's no real "halo", but I'm in the school of thought that halos develop from people handling the rifle and the high points being finish-worn first.

    You can still see where the stock was rasped down to the buttplate contour when the stock was made, they didn't bother to sand it smooth under the pressures of total war and they just oiled it and sent it out the door.

    You can also see where most of the bolt ledge is untouched, but where the prefix it, that area was lightly sanded or filed. I figure either they mis-stamped the prefix, or maybe there was some rust or a pit or something that was filed out after the serial number was stamped. The serial number matches the fonts on the rest of the rifle perfectly, so I don't believe it was renumbered. Likely it was cleaned up at manufacture for some reason or other.

    The bolt knob is pretty crude, only partially machined round. Definitely a a wartime expedient rifle.

    Overall I'm happy with the gun. Bore is super clean - perhaps unfired since proofing. I'm happy to have this one.













  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claven2 View Post
    Here's mine. Sorry for the crummy light, it's getting dark out.

    I haven't really cleaned this yet, just a light wipe down. I need to give it a good cleaning and inspection, likely tomorrow. So this is out of the box, wiped down quickly with an old T-shirt.

    The base rifle is not unaltered. There is a shallow dish sanded or milled into the side of the stock, just aft of the rear band to make room for the tip of the bayonet. I expect this was done when the rifle was made.

    Mine has a coat of shellac on it, but based on some exposed areas, it looks like it originally only had an oil finish and the shellac was added some time later, presumably as a preservative or some sort. If it's been re-blued, nothing was buffed or cleaned first and it was a hot dip of the barrelled action. IF. There's no evidence of actual use anywhere on the rifle, no nicks, dings, rough handling marks, dings in the metal beyond the rough manufacturing marks, etc. There's no real "halo", but I'm in the school of thought that halos develop from people handling the rifle and the high points being finish-worn first.

    You can still see where the stock was rasped down to the buttplate contour when the stock was made, they didn't bother to sand it smooth under the pressures of total war and they just oiled it and sent it out the door.

    You can also see where most of the bolt ledge is untouched, but where the prefix it, that area was lightly sanded or filed. I figure either they mis-stamped the prefix, or maybe there was some rust or a pit or something that was filed out after the serial number was stamped. The serial number matches the fonts on the rest of the rifle perfectly, so I don't believe it was renumbered. Likely it was cleaned up at manufacture for some reason or other.

    The bolt knob is pretty crude, only partially machined round. Definitely a a wartime expedient rifle.

    Overall I'm happy with the gun. Bore is super clean - perhaps unfired since proofing. I'm happy to have this one.

    Very nice! I would expect the price to be a LOT higher if they arrived in US.

    The halo effect you are referencing for original condition guns is only really present on the pre-war rust blued guns. Dip bluing will not show this effect on the war expedite production guns. On those guns you can tell original condition by looking if the inside of the number is "in white" due to the stamp punches breaking and displacing the surface finish. All these guns appear to have been reblued for some reason. Yours appears to also have the bolt reworked a little, as you noted, in addition for whatever reason.

    My personal belief is that the small relief cuts observed on this particular batch occurred when these were re-blued. The cuts have all been done by hand and there is no pattern to how they are done, this wouldn't point to factory work. Delivering 10,000 units as Ratnik reported, there would be a jig made for this modification. I would also expect all these guns to have same serial number prefix range if they were batch of guns "as they left the plant"

  17. #61
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    I can't say when the relief cut was made, but I expect it had to be at manufacture. I just tried an unmodified stock on my barrelled action and the bayonet would NOT "click shut" on an un-modified stock. Ergo, some wood removal at the factory would have been necessary. My relief area looks to have been made with a mechanical sander of some sort, its a uniform thinning of the stock running the whole height of the stock, just aft of the rear band. It's not a shallow groove like on an M44. It's hard to photograph it, you have to look at the stock from the bottom to see that it's been done.

    I don;t see any missing bluing in the numbers, so it was perhaps hot dipped, but when I re-blue guns without removing the original finish first, the result is a "milky" finish that is not present here, the bluing came out like hot caustic bluing looks over fresh metal. Of course, maybe they caustic dipped them first? Dunno.

    There is a spot in the white on the underside of the tang on my action that had a small bit of surface rust which steel-wooled right off. It's like the bluing didn't take there, about the size of a fingerprint right where the izhevsk tang mark is. By the way, the tang is an izhevsk triangle with "19" under that, the last 2 date digits are not stamped.

    The bolt on mine looks like they lightly touched it to a belt sander - I'm guessing at inspection or rework, they ground off a spot of pitting or surface rust. On inspection through a loupe, the prefix is the original stamping, but the raised edges have been sanded off, so it was worked on after being serialized. And it's really isolatd to a very small part of the bolt ledge, there is original machining marks peeking through along hte length of the shelf. I'm thinking rust removal during maintenance is the most likely explanation.

    As for serial blocks, there's a thread over on CGN tracking this. All observed examples so far have common traits and are falling in the 3"X" prefix range with only one exception. The second prefix digit has so far only been in 4 letter ranges, so all but one example fall within less than 30,000 to 40,000 numbers apart. The one exception is a 1944 refurb, and it's possible this is a standard refurb that got an orphan bayonet sleeve installed. Observed 1943 prefixes: ЗД, ЗН, ЗЖ and ЗЕ. The lone 1944 refurb was a ГВ.

    I would say evidence from this small sample size seems to point to a definite serial number range, but we need to wait for more data points to confirm. One CGN member claims to have examined 50 of these rifles in europe and the same serial number trend held there too. I believe him because he personally imported 2 of them a few months ago.
    Last edited by Claven2; 06-17-2017 at 10:19 AM.

  18. #62
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    One other interesting thing, the stock, underneath the shellac, looks to have all its original factory surface finish. The stocl looks to have been spirally cross-sanded at manufacture, like it was done in a fixture. wherever there ewas hand fitting, it was done with a rasp and the rasp marks were not cleaned up. It's as rough as the metal of the gun - typical 1942-1943 stuff.

    Also, the inletting would lead me to believe this whole stock was dipped in oil at manufacture. Likely linseed from the hue. It's dry now, but definitely has an oxidized oil look about it, like untouched lee-enfield birch stocks look. I'm confident original finish on this stock was oil, not nitrocellulose or shellac.

  19. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claven2 View Post
    I can't say when the relief cut was made, but I expect it had to be at manufacture. I just tried an unmodified stock on my barrelled action and the bayonet would NOT "click shut" on an un-modified stock. Ergo, some wood removal at the factory would have been necessary. My relief area looks to have been made with a mechanical sander of some sort, its a uniform thinning of the stock running the whole height of the stock, just aft of the rear band. It's not a shallow groove like on an M44. It's hard to photograph it, you have to look at the stock from the bottom to see that it's been done.

    I don;t see any missing bluing in the numbers, so it was perhaps hot dipped, but when I re-blue guns without removing the original finish first, the result is a "milky" finish that is not present here, the bluing came out like hot caustic bluing looks over fresh metal. Of course, maybe they caustic dipped them first? Dunno.

    There is a spot in the white on the underside of the tang on my action that had a small bit of surface rust which steel-wooled right off. It's like the bluing didn't take there, about the size of a fingerprint right where the izhevsk tang mark is. By the way, the tang is an izhevsk triangle with "19" under that, the last 2 date digits are not stamped.

    The bolt on mine looks like they lightly touched it to a belt sander - I'm guessing at inspection or rework, they ground off a spot of pitting or surface rust. On inspection through a loupe, the prefix is the original stamping, but the raised edges have been sanded off, so it was worked on after being serialized. And it's really isolatd to a very small part of the bolt ledge, there is original machining marks peeking through along hte length of the shelf. I'm thinking rust removal during maintenance is the most likely explanation.

    As for serial blocks, there's a thread over on CGN tracking this. All observed examples so far have common traits and are falling in the 3"X" prefix range with only one exception. The second prefix digit has so far only been in 4 letter ranges, so all but one example fall within less than 30,000 to 40,000 numbers apart. The one exception is a 1944 refurb, and it's possible this is a standard refurb that got an orphan bayonet sleeve installed. Observed 1943 prefixes: ЗД, ЗН, ЗЖ and ЗЕ. The lone 1944 refurb was a ГВ.

    I would say evidence from this small sample size seems to point to a definite serial number range, but we need to wait for more data points to confirm. One CGN member claims to have examined 50 of these rifles in europe and the same serial number trend held there too. I believe him because he personally imported 2 of them a few months ago.
    There's also "3P" and "OM" from 1943 that the OP has. So the 3"X" serial range is 170,000 units (your 3A to 3P), plus others.

    The contacts I have in Europe that ended up with 10 of these said he got it directly from the guy that gotten them out of Ukraine. Not sure how much truth there is to it given the political situation in Ukraine right now but he did end up with 10 of them. I will enquire on the prefixes if he still has all of them.

  20. #64
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    As an aside, in the absence of a formal name for this variant, the Canadians who are buying these up have opted to call them "91/43" rifles moving forward.

  21. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claven2 View Post
    As an aside, in the absence of a formal name for this variant, the Canadians who are buying these up have opted to call them "91/43" rifles moving forward.

    Works for me!

    More info when you get it Claven. Very interested in this topic.

  22. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claven2 View Post
    As an aside, in the absence of a formal name for this variant, the Canadians who are buying these up have opted to call them "91/43" rifles moving forward.
    Yes the French dealers in France and I were calling them 91/30/43's when they first came in a few months back. I believe that is what was written somewhere in original paperwork as well. Let me dig through my pics.

  23. #67
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    I recently bought one here in Europe, s/no. prefix "ЗБ":

    Click image for larger version. 

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  24. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcvando View Post
    Yes the French dealers in France and I were calling them 91/30/43's when they first came in a few months back. I believe that is what was written somewhere in original paperwork as well. Let me dig through my pics.
    Slight correction, the dealers were calling these a 91/30/43, but the factory paperwork says "91/30 with folding Semin bayonet."

  25. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claven2 View Post
    As an aside, in the absence of a formal name for this variant, the Canadians who are buying these up have opted to call them "91/43" rifles moving forward.
    If anything it should be called Semin Trial M91/30. As it was not an official adopted model. This would follow the prototype M91/30s that came before it.....Siminov, etc.

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