1895 Chilean Mauser headspace issues, fails a NO-GO & FIELD *Updated - Page 2
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Thread: 1895 Chilean Mauser headspace issues, fails a NO-GO & FIELD *Updated

  1. #46
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    Clymer and Forester head space gages for the 257 and 7MM are the same. Rim thickness has nothing to do with it. I don't understand why anyone would mess around shooting a rifle that fails the safety test.

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    OK, you must be the expert.. All I am saying is that the two cartridges are different and, thus, require different head space gauges. Ref: Modern Reloading but Lee, 2nd edition.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by musketshooter View Post
    Clymer and Forester head space gages for the 257 and 7MM are the same. Rim thickness has nothing to do with it. I don't understand why anyone would mess around shooting a rifle that fails the safety test.
    Headspace checking not a safety test but a chamber dimension measurement. If the difference isn't caused by wear or material failure it is safe to shoot. At most you'll need to reload, having created your own wildcat.
    211 BC: I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Gnaeus Fulvius Centumalus Maximus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a denarius in any one day.

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  5. #49
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    Someone mentioned above, before 1920, European specs were different. Yes, headspacing is one of the safety checks you should do. Spending a little money for safety is a lot cheaper replacing your face or eyesight. Even if I only bought them for these rifles, I can always sell them with a small loss. I call it cheap insurance. Also, I do plan on collecting more 7mm Mausers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by srv1 View Post
    Someone mentioned above, before 1920, European specs were different. Yes, headspacing is one of the safety checks you should do. Spending a little money for safety is a lot cheaper replacing your face or eyesight. Even if I only bought them for these rifles, I can always sell them with a small loss. I call it cheap insurance. Also, I do plan on collecting more 7mm Mausers.
    A rifle will Not blow up, nor apart, because of even Grossly excessive headspace...Due to Ridicule in the Past..I won't relate why I know this..
    Excessive headspace actually causes a reduction in Pressure...
    Poor Reloading Practices are what destroys Firearms...

    Quote Originally Posted by jjk308 View Post
    Headspace checking not a safety test but a chamber dimension measurement. If the difference isn't caused by wear or material failure it is safe to shoot. At most you'll need to reload, having created your own wildcat.
    This^^^ Is Fact.

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racepres View Post
    A rifle will Not blow up, nor apart, because of even Grossly excessive headspace...Due to Ridicule in the Past..I won't relate why I know this..
    Excessive headspace actually causes a reduction in Pressure...
    Poor Reloading Practices are what destroys Firearms...



    This^^^ Is Fact.
    Really? So excessive headspace will not cause any safety issues?

  8. #52
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    Default Dodo & darwin prizes!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Racepres View Post
    A rifle will Not blow up, nor apart, because of even Grossly excessive headspace...Due to Ridicule in the Past..I won't relate why I know this..
    Excessive headspace actually causes a reduction in Pressure...
    Poor Reloading Practices are what destroys Firearms..





    This^^^ Is Fact.
    I wish to recommend you for this years' Dodo Prize! I am also confident that one day you will become a recipient of the Darwin Award! Let us hope this is not a likeness of your next of kin!

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by srv1 View Post
    Really? So excessive headspace will not cause any safety issues?

    How many times has a 308 been fired in a 30-06 chamber? How many of them "blew up"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Merle1948 View Post
    How many times has a 308 been fired in a 30-06 chamber? How many of them "blew up"?
    I do not know. I fire the correct cartridge chambered for the firearm that I'm using.

  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterike View Post
    I wish to recommend you for this years' Dodo Prize! I am also confident that one day you will become a recipient of the Darwin Award! Let us hope this is not a likeness of your next of kin!
    No worries mate...
    Recommend all ya like..Ike!!!
    I can Prove what I say...

    Quote Originally Posted by Merle1948 View Post
    How many times has a 308 been fired in a 30-06 chamber? How many of them "blew up"?
    Not a good thing...but a good example..
    What do you suppose the velocity would have been???.. Bets it was quite a bit lower than a 308 Chambered Piece..Course...that is a long bullet "jump"!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Racepres View Post

    Not a good thing...but a good example..
    What do you suppose the velocity would have been???.. Bets it was quite a bit lower than a 308 Chambered Piece..Course...that is a long bullet "jump"!!!
    I expect the velocity was down a bit, and accuracy was fairly poor. But the point was the rifle DIDN'T blow up.
    Worst case I ever saw was a full box of 30-06 that was fired in a 300H&H mag!
    The cases were badly deformed, but none of them ruptured - probably saved the shooter from a lot of pain!

  13. #57
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    I know of one man who was killed when his rifle blew up. He was firing surplus ammo at the range. This was reported years ago in the "American Rifleman" when I was a member of the NRA. I personally saw two rifles that were brought in for "repairs". Both were FUBAR! One was a M91 Mosin-Nagan with the top of the receiver blown off and the barrel merely laying in the stock. The owner wanted to know if we could fix by the weekend so he could go hunting. I said "No!" The second was a very high quality prewar 98 Mauser commercial rifle with a "goose egged" receiver ring. The owner said it was a WW2 war trophy. The bolt he had with it, definitely was not original to it. That bolt was far beyond just worn out. Old rust and lots of neglect were evident. His captain had kept the original bolt and he had managed to find a "replacement"!! If headspace gauges were not necessary, THEY WOULD NOT BE MADE!

  14. #58
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    ^^ Not any problem at all to find evidence of virtually any make/style/action "blowing up"
    Happens all the time..Getting to the Cause is another matter, except in the case of worn/fatigued/broken parts..


    Headspace Gauges definitely have a Purpose.. for Accuracy, and/or best performance...the Case should match the chamber as closely as possible, and if one Reloads, correct case dimensions can become critical.
    That is why knowledgeable Wildcatters and Accuracy Buffs, understand Fireforming...

    I am of the Belief that Improper or Sloppy Reloading practices Destroy Far more Firearms than any other cause.
    If we are going to Perpetuate Concerns for safety...we all need to spend much more time with Reloading safety, than Headspace, especially as concerns Milsurps...which are inherently/purposely "loose".

  15. #59
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    You can blow out a case from excessive headspace.
    HOWEVER the 1895 - on Mausers and especially the 1898's have gas handling that'll protect you. And the earlier Mauser types and most other military rifles had lower pressure cartridges that, with nominal eye protection, are not dangerous if the case blows up and, especially, if you have the more usual case separation that effectively seals the chamber. I regularly reloaded and shot .303 Brit cases until they came apart with never more than a wisp of gas escaping. I've had a number of case separations in Mauser types, and more primer blowouts, with no damage. I do download my 1893 Turk ammo by about 20%, but these are old rifles with very minimal gas provisions and have been rebarreled for the hotter 8x57 cartridge.

    I have never seen a rifle blown up by excessive headspace. It's always been a bad load, usually by a Bubba screwup, or a cheap commercial reload, or firing after a squib lodges a bullet in the bore.

    Excess headspace, assuming everything else is OK, is a nuisance, not a danger. If you are buying a rifle by all means use a gauge as a convenience. But don't pass on an otherwise very desirable rifle on that basis alone.

    I believe there are 2 real non-safety reasons for the headspace concern. One is simply because anyone with a gauge can measure it easily. The other is that gunsmiths made a lot of money post WWII rebarreling or selling replacements for bringbacks that failed a No-Go. The concept of "Field Gauge" was not general knowledge in the USA at the time and the European gauges were longer anyway.
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    I was given loose rounds of 7mm Rem mag once and I failed to look at them closely. One of the rounds I fired turned out to be a 280 !! The casing split in a couple places and expanded but no harm was done to me or my Win Mod 70 ( in 7mm Rem Mag).
    Firearms are made to withstand excessive pressures (to a limit) and a casing only obturates, better fitting ones aid in accuracy.

  17. #61
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    You can always neck size only your brass,and the head space is correct for that brass/rifle combination.

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    I've never seen one blow up, but I have seen that dazed, "what just happened" look many times. In fact, it seems that every trip to the range results in a new entry to my "dumbest things I've ever seen" log. I do think that we are all in violent agreement that shooters should know the condition of their equipment before touching the trigger. I, personally, check headspace as a beginning - not an end. If it fails, I want to know why. Some genius may have decided that 7X57 would be great as a .280AI. Now to the headspace crowd. Compare new to fired .303 cases. If that didn't blow up, a couple thousandths on a rimless case surely will not. The biggest downside to long headspace/fireformed brass is greatly reduced case life. To those with the knowledge, I say, drive on. To those who aren't sure, I recommend caution. Every mishap, especially if seen on TV, is damaging to us all.

    To the OP, I strongly recommend that you mark your fired cases for the respective rifles, and neck-size those cases only. FL sizing will work harden the brass, and you will see case failures after just a few firings. Annealing would help, if you know how, but even then, I would only plan on about 5 loadings.

  19. #63
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    QZ2026. Did Lee give you any hint of where to buy the "proper" headspace gages? Brownell's is usually recognized as the authority on firearms gages and tools. Check them out.

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    smile Understanding headspace is a safety issue

    Despite all of the hot air to the contrary, EXCESSIVE headspace really is a safety issue. A lot of fellows think that because they know of or have done something akin to firing a .308 round in a .30-06 rifle, it "proves" headspace is nothing to worry about. They are wrong because they do not understand exactly what is happening when they pull the trigger. Almost all rifles by design, actually grab onto the cartridge case rim (both rimmed and rimless) with the extractor as the cartridge enters the chamber. What this means is that the cartridge case is held more or less tightly against the bolt face by the extractor. Think about what I am saying! Because the extractor is holding the cartridge against the bolt face, in so far as the bolt face is concerned, the cartridge has acceptable headspace. This is because any "excessive" headspace is forward of the cartridge shoulder which is where rimless cartridges are normally headspaced.
    Because of this, when the rifle is actually fired, the case will expand forward, eliminating any excessive headspace in most situations. When a rifle begins to often expel ruptured cases, it is a sure sign that headspace has become excessive to the point that it is truly dangerous as shown by the case's inability to stretch far enough to cover the gap without separating.
    Even this will not generally harm a well made rifle. Real damage is more likely to occur when a second fault intrudes upon the first. Consider the implication of a defective extractor, which through damage or wear, no longer holds the cartridge securely to the bolt face, but allows or even pushes the cartridge far into the chamber. In this situation, when fired, the cartridge case will no longer be secured against the bolt face. It will be a measurable distance from it and the natural laws concerning kinetic energy come into effect. With the poor means available to me in this medium I can not reproduce it here, but in words: The Kinetic Energy of a object is directly proportional to the Square of that objects' Speed. In this discussion, we will consider that the "cartridge case" is the object and the Speed of the cartridge case is imparted by the burn rate of the powder over distance of travel. Therefore the impact of a cartridge case traveling 2 thousands of an inch is 4 TIMES GREATER than one traveling 1 thousands of an inch. This is a geometric progression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterike View Post
    Despite all of the hot air to the contrary, EXCESSIVE headspace really is a safety issue. A lot of fellows think that because they know of or have done something akin to firing a .308 round in a .30-06 rifle, it "proves" headspace is nothing to worry about. They are wrong because they do not understand exactly what is happening when they pull the trigger. Almost all rifles by design, actually grab onto the cartridge case rim (both rimmed and rimless) with the extractor as the cartridge enters the chamber. What this means is that the cartridge case is held more or less tightly against the bolt face by the extractor. Think about what I am saying! Because the extractor is holding the cartridge against the bolt face, in so far as the bolt face is concerned, the cartridge has acceptable headspace. This is because any "excessive" headspace is forward of the cartridge shoulder which is where rimless cartridges are normally headspaced.
    Because of this, when the rifle is actually fired, the case will expand forward, eliminating any excessive headspace in most situations. When a rifle begins to often expel ruptured cases, it is a sure sign that headspace has become excessive to the point that it is truly dangerous as shown by the case's inability to stretch far enough to cover the gap without separating.
    Even this will not generally harm a well made rifle. Real damage is more likely to occur when a second fault intrudes upon the first. Consider the implication of a defective extractor, which through damage or wear, no longer holds the cartridge securely to the bolt face, but allows or even pushes the cartridge far into the chamber. In this situation, when fired, the cartridge case will no longer be secured against the bolt face. It will be a measurable distance from it and the natural laws concerning kinetic energy come into effect. With the poor means available to me in this medium I can not reproduce it here, but in words: The Kinetic Energy of a object is directly proportional to the Square of that objects' Speed. In this discussion, we will consider that the "cartridge case" is the object and the Speed of the cartridge case is imparted by the burn rate of the powder over distance of travel. Therefore the impact of a cartridge case traveling 2 thousands of an inch is 4 TIMES GREATER than one traveling 1 thousands of an inch. This is a geometric progression.

    AHHH, so now to want to add additional conditions to the original "fault" ?

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    Can you guys PLEASE not get my thread locked? This thread is to help others. Whether or not head space is a safety issue, their is a reason they have it and it is not just for accuracy. If some of you feel like you do not need to check head space, so be it, that is your decision but I will always try to check head space on these old milsurps. Just because someone has not seen it happen, does not mean that is cannot. The money I spent on head spaced gauges is considered cheap insurance. Again, please do not get my thread locked!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Merle1948 View Post
    AHHH, so now to want to add additional conditions to the original "fault" ?
    Stop being a fool! If you have had any REAL life experiences, you would know that "accidents" very, very rarely, if ever, have a single cause. There are always other things that contribute to the disaster. In my part of the world, a Death Certificate always lists 3 causes of death, one of which is always "cardiac arrest". This term being medical legalese for "the hart stopped beating" and NO HART BEAT is top proof that whomever is dead. The same kind of thing is also true in the world of the gun. If you hear of a gun blowing up and the fellow who held it, is among the living and testifies that he did no wrong. It is a safe bet that excessive headspace is the prime cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterike View Post
    Stop being a fool! If you have had any REAL life experiences, you would know that "accidents" very, very rarely, if ever, have a single cause. There are always other things that contribute to the disaster. In my part of the world, a Death Certificate always lists 3 causes of death, one of which is always "cardiac arrest". This term being medical legalese for "the hart stopped beating" and NO HART BEAT is top proof that whomever is dead. The same kind of thing is also true in the world of the gun. If you hear of a gun blowing up and the fellow who held it, is among the living and testifies that he did no wrong. It is a safe bet that excessive headspace is the prime cause.

    My point is to stick to the original question, and not add in additional criteria.
    I quite agree that your premise is correct, but that was not the original question.
    How about you stop muddying up the water?

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    Default POINTLESS

    Quote Originally Posted by Merle1948 View Post
    My point is to stick to the original question, and not add in additional criteria.
    I quite agree that your premise is correct, but that was not the original question.
    How about you stop muddying up the water?
    You don't have a point or a clue either as to why good headspace is an important safety consideration! Kindly take the time to actually READ and try to understand what I have posted and perhaps you will begin to understand that the actual position (Which can be effected by any number of beyond the operators control factors.) of the cartridge, can have catastrophic consequences in a rifle with dangerously out of spec headspace. In the example I used, a broken extractor driving a cartridge deep into a "it will close on a field gauge chamber" and the possibly dire consequences there of. Any number things could be substituted as a cause: A few grains of sand because you live in Arizona. A ittybit of hard candy because it's Christmas and your Everloving bought you a new 100 year old Mauser. The craziest things can make an accident happen! My point is this: If any of the things mentioned (And any number of things I haven't!) happened to a rifle with good headspace. The worse likely outcome would a stuck case because of a broken extractor! Think about it!

  26. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterike View Post
    Therefore the impact of a cartridge case traveling 2 thousands of an inch is 4 TIMES GREATER than one traveling 1 thousands of an inch. This is a geometric progression.
    I suggest you weigh a case, estimate the "dangerous" headspace and try and calculate the acceleration, velocity and momentum it gains during its travel and momentum transfer (recoil) to the rifle. Compared to the very large factor of safety it is minimal and the "hammer effect" can be ignored. Even in much heavier shotgun shells the difference in recoil between a typical type of uncontrolled chambering and one where the rim is held in place against the breech, the only one I know of is the Darne, is noticeable but by no means dangerous and the gun will last for decades.

    You should also consider that most Kabooms happen to the inexperienced because they are the ones who tend to buy cheap reloads, ignore squibs, don't know how to keep their firearms in good, safe condition or decide to try reloading without taking basic safety precautions. Having them all buy headspace gauges isn't going to help much. Educating them in firearms safety will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjk308 View Post
    I suggest you weigh a case, estimate the "dangerous" headspace and try and calculate the acceleration, velocity and momentum it gains during its travel and momentum transfer (recoil) to the rifle. Compared to the very large factor of safety it is minimal and the "hammer effect" can be ignored. Even in much heavier shotgun shells the difference in recoil between a typical type of uncontrolled chambering and one where the rim is held in place against the breech, the only one I know of is the Darne, is noticeable but by no means dangerous and the gun will last for decades.

    You should also consider that most Kabooms happen to the inexperienced because they are the ones who tend to buy cheap reloads, ignore squibs, don't know how to keep their firearms in good, safe condition or decide to try reloading without taking basic safety precautions. Having them all buy headspace gauges isn't going to help much. Educating them in firearms safety will.
    I did not make up the equation defining Kinetic energy! It is a natural law. Other natural laws, Newton's 2nd and 3rd also come into play in this discussion. Newton's 2nd law: "Acceleration is produced when a force acts upon a mass", expressed as: Force = Mass multiplied by Acceleration. And Newton's 3rd law: "For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction." With those in mind consider this: When a cartridge is fired, the projectile or bullet is expelled with great force in direction "A". At that exact moment and precisely opposite to direction "A" is direction "B". Direction "B" is encompassed by the firearm from which the bullet was fired and therefore consistent with Newton's 3rd law, said firearm is propelled directly opposite and with equal force. Now let us suppose that the bullet impacts upon and penetrates a 1/4 inch thick piece of sheet steel and we will further suppose that the man who fired it experienced only a mild thump on his shoulder. The "why" of that is governed by Newton's 2nd law and that Kinetic Energy equation previously mentioned. The logical conclusion of each one thousand of an inch of excessive head space being a geometric progression and square of the one preceding it, is in effect, the same as a bullet fired INTO the action. Which is why headspace gauges are made. Let us be wise old men and teach our junior partners that always being SAFE matters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterike View Post
    I did not make up the equation defining Kinetic energy! It is a natural law. Other natural laws, Newton's 2nd and 3rd also come into play in this discussion. Newton's 2nd law: "Acceleration is produced when a force acts upon a mass", expressed as: Force = Mass multiplied by Acceleration. And Newton's 3rd law: "For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction." With those in mind consider this: When a cartridge is fired, the projectile or bullet is expelled with great force in direction "A". At that exact moment and precisely opposite to direction "A" is direction "B". Direction "B" is encompassed by the firearm from which the bullet was fired and therefore consistent with Newton's 3rd law, said firearm is propelled directly opposite and with equal force. Now let us suppose that the bullet impacts upon and penetrates a 1/4 inch thick piece of sheet steel and we will further suppose that the man who fired it experienced only a mild thump on his shoulder. The "why" of that is governed by Newton's 2nd law and that Kinetic Energy equation previously mentioned. The logical conclusion of each one thousand of an inch of excessive head space being a geometric progression and square of the one preceding it, is in effect, the same as a bullet fired INTO the action. Which is why headspace gauges are made. Let us be wise old men and teach our junior partners that always being SAFE matters.
    Do the calculations. The numbers will educate you far more than any words.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjk308 View Post
    Do the calculations. The numbers will educate you far more than any words.
    I've done the numbers and I have also seen the result of what happens when people ignore safety issues!

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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterike View Post
    I've done the numbers and I have also seen the result of what happens when people ignore safety issues!
    Can you post those. Would like to see what they look like. After three years of physics for my engineering degree I still struggle to do those equations. Course that was a few years ago.

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    smile Playing with numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Can you post those. Would like to see what they look like. After three years of physics for my engineering degree I still struggle to do those equations. Course that was a few years ago.
    If you actually have a engineering degree, then you would know that geometric progressions are endless numbers. They being similar to Pi, in that respect. If have ever been an expert witness in court, which I have been on several occasions, then you also know that engineers on opposing sides can and generally do produce very different conclusions from the same basic facts. If you have real world experience, then you know that there are always contributing factors that have not been a part of this discussion, but would of necessity, be introduced to formulate our arguments. That being said, it would be interesting to do real world testing. But that would be unfair to you, as your basic premise appears to be something akin to: "Headspace checking is not a safety test.." (from your post of 03-11-2017) My old machine shop teacher, who got his training in US Army Ordnance, would have laughed you out of class for that one! We ALWAYS checked headspace as a part of a safety inspection.

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    this has turned into a pointless discussion by people with opinions.i don't understand why the moderator tolerates this.

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    Mostly what shooterike does is insult people, without adding to the conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterike View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Can you post those. Would like to see what they look like. After three years of physics for my engineering degree I still struggle to do those equations. Course that was a few years ago.
    If you actually have a engineering degree, then you would know that geometric progressions are endless numbers. They being similar to Pi, in that respect. If have ever been an expert witness in court, which I have been on several occasions, then you also know that engineers on opposing sides can and generally do produce very different conclusions from the same basic facts. If you have real world experience, then you know that there are always contributing factors that have not been a part of this discussion, but would of necessity, be introduced to formulate our arguments. That being said, it would be interesting to do real world testing. But that would be unfair to you, as your basic premise appears to be something akin to: "Headspace checking is not a safety test.." (from your post of 03-11-2017) My old machine shop teacher, who got his training in US Army Ordnance, would have laughed you out of class for that one! We ALWAYS checked headspace as a part of a safety inspection.
    Umm, hi. I think you have me confused with someone else.

    So I googled geometric progressions, and I think I understand what they are, but no, we never used them in any of our physics classes. I am not really sure how they come into play when calculating this particular situation. But, that is why I asked you, because you said you HAD run the numbers. And I am curious to see what those numbers look like. Obviously the implied notion here, that one would generally think does not need to be said, is that I am not SMART enough to do those calculations. Thus, the reason I asked to see them.

    My "real world" experience is tool & die making. It is pretty simple. Either the die runs right and makes parts or it doesn't. No fancy math equations required.
    Last edited by Fal Grunt; 03-15-2017 at 02:48 PM.

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    I think he meant to say "exponential expression." I will leave the question of whether that apllies to the current discussion to the physicists.

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    A weapon with slightly excessive head space will not blow up. The case MIGHT rupture, but the weapon will stay in one piece, UNLESS there are other variables, such as a bore obstruction, or the wrong cartridge or caliber fired.
    This is the "Thread that will never die". Let it go.
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    Default The PROBLEM is Definitions

    Language is a poor means of conveying EXACTLY what is mint. This is supposedly a discussion on HEADSPACE issues and some pretty outlandish statements have been made. Apparently some think "headspace" is a non issue, a position I do not agree with. I also agree that it is also fairly difficult to "blow up" as in "went into pieces", a well made weapon, but I seen that happen TWICE in one day! Both owners lived to tell the tell and both confessed that they had used reloads. I have also seen a small number of various guns, including at least one Mauser that were wreaked beyond repair by what the owners claimed to be factory loaded ammunition. All of them, except the Mauser, which was excellent with an unbelievable worn replacement bolt, were very worn. I will always advise the use of proper headspace and other gauges. I do not consider any firearm which will close on a field gauge to be "SAFE". Regardless of what you may think of my opinions, remember my advice is if you err on the side of caution, you have not really made a mistake!

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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterike View Post
    Language is a poor means of conveying EXACTLY what is mint. This is supposedly a discussion on HEADSPACE issues and some pretty outlandish statements have been made. Apparently some think "headspace" is a non issue, a position I do not agree with. I also agree that it is also fairly difficult to "blow up" as in "went into pieces", a well made weapon, but I seen that happen TWICE in one day! Both owners lived to tell the tell and both confessed that they had used reloads. I have also seen a small number of various guns, including at least one Mauser that were wreaked beyond repair by what the owners claimed to be factory loaded ammunition. All of them, except the Mauser, which was excellent with an unbelievable worn replacement bolt, were very worn. I will always advise the use of proper headspace and other gauges. I do not consider any firearm which will close on a field gauge to be "SAFE". Regardless of what you may think of my opinions, remember my advice is if you err on the side of caution, you have not really made a mistake!
    Mike I agree with you but as a member stated above, the headspace specs were different back then and the gauges I used were SAAMI spec'd. I posted my results and I did not see anything that would not make it safe. Another member pointed out that the shoulder of one of my cases looks abnormal but I did not see anything wrong with it compared to the other rifle that I fired which passed the headspace gauge field test. That is why I fired the gun remotely. Fired 10 rounds out of each with zero issues. Again, I agree with you but for this instance, I say it is safe to fire unless someone can chime in and show me were I'm wrong.

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    What is "mint"? Quare - what does a plant (some varieties of which are used in juleps, and others to get some cats all wound up) have to do with firearms?
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterike View Post
    I have also seen a small number of various guns, including at least one Mauser that were wreaked beyond repair by what the owners claimed to be factory loaded ammunition. All of them, except the Mauser, which was excellent with an unbelievable worn replacement bolt, were very worn.
    I doubt that many rifles wrecked by excessive pressure will pass a headspace gauge check.

    And gun owners are likely to claim they were shooting factory ammo because most warranties are void if reloads are fired.

    http://www.ruger.com/service/faqs.html

    Does Ruger recommend reloading ammunition?
    No. Death, serious injury, and damage can result from improper ammunition; bore obstructions, powder overloads, or incorrect cartridge components. Even the strongest gun can be blown up by excess pressure. Only use correct ammunition loaded to U.S. Industry Standards. Always wear shooting glasses and hearing protectors. Improper ammunition destroys guns. We specifically disclaim responsibility for any damage or injury whatsoever occurring in connection with, or as a result of, the use in any Ruger® firearms of faulty, or non-standard, or 'remanufactured' or hand-loaded (reloaded) ammunition, or of cartridges other than those for which the firearm was originally chambered.


    https://www.remington.com/support/fi...ty-information

    What is not covered by this warranty?
    We will not cover damage of your firearm caused by:

    Failure to provide proper care and maintenance
    Accidents, abuse or misuse
    Barrel obstruction
    Hand loaded, reloaded or improper ammunition
    Unauthorized adjustments, repairs or modifications
    Normal wear and tear

    http://www.colt.com/Customer-Services/FAQ

    Q4. Which ammunition is recommended for use in my Colt firearm?

    .....COLT DOES NOT RECOMMEND THE USE OF RELOADED AMMUNITION.

    Q7.

    Does Colt have a warranty?
    Answer:

    Colt does not offer an express warranty, but acknowledges implied Magnuson-Moss Act obligations. Colt products will be serviced for defects in original factory materials or workmanship to the original purchaser at no charge for one year from the date of retail purchase. Cosmetic blemishes and damage from normal wear and tear, abuse, neglect, improper ammunition, or to finishes/coatings are excluded. Be sure to retain your sales slip as proof of original purchaser and purchase date when making a claim.
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    wink2 Educating the educated

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Can you post those. Would like to see what they look like. After three years of physics for my engineering degree I still struggle to do those equations. Course that was a few years ago.
    It is back to school time! The basic equations I have already given to you! There is no point in giving them to you again, as you do not seem to understand them. You might find it more helpful to look up US Army technical manual TM9-2210,"Small Arms Accidents Malfunctions and Their Causes". A portion of this manual is available on the web, just do a search for it. I direct you to Chapter 11 (This concerns Browning .30 caliber machinegun and is the ONLY portion of this manual available. The information, however is of universal application.) paragraph 56 has to do with various safety checks such as ammunition to be of the correct type, checking for bore obstructions, defective parts and so forth. Paragraph 57 lists various causes of accidents which are defective parts, faulty ammunition, obstructions of the bore and excessive headspace. Paragraph 58 lists as "a. EXCESSIVE HEADSPACE" as the first cause of trouble. Figure 23 shows 4 cartridge cases, one as standard and 3 as examples of excessive headspace. No2 being an example of "Y16-inch" excess headspace, as is example 4. Example 3, which has an appearance much the same as Example 4, is the result of "Y4-inch" excessive headspace. To me, this appears to indicate that they are using the Kinetic energy equation I previously mentioned as 16 is 4 squared. Paragraph 58 "b. DEFECTIVE AMMUNITION" listed as 1. Cartridge with split neck. 2. Hang Fire (cartridge) and 3. Excessive Pressure (cartridge). Paragraph 58 "c. BORE OBSTRUCTION" of which several types are listed. Paragraph 58 "d. and e." have to do with broken or defective parts. The real lesson here is that excessive headspace is a critical safety issue and in conjunction with another fault, can hurt a lot more than just your pride.
    Last edited by shooterike; 03-20-2017 at 01:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterike View Post
    It is back to school time! The basic equations I have already given to you! There is no point in giving them to you again, as you do not seem to understand them. You might find it more helpful to look up US Army technical manual TM9-2210,"Small Arms Accidents Malfunctions and Their Causes". A portion of this manual is available on the web, just do a search for it. I direct you to Chapter 11 (This concerns Browning .30 caliber machinegun and is the ONLY portion of this manual available. The information, however is of universal application.) paragraph 56 has to do with various safety checks such as ammunition to be of the correct type, checking for bore obstructions, defective parts and so forth. Paragraph 57 lists various causes of accidents which are defective parts, faulty ammunition, obstructions of the bore and excessive headspace. Paragraph 58 lists as "a. EXCESSIVE HEADSPACE" as the first cause of trouble. Figure 23 shows 4 cartridge cases, one as standard and 3 as examples of excessive headspace. No2 being an example of "Y16-inch" excess headspace, as is example 4. Example 3, which has an appearance much the same as Example 4, is the result of "Y4-inch" excessive headspace. To me, this appears to indicate that they are using the Kinetic energy equation I previously mentioned as 16 is 4 squared. Paragraph 58 "b. DEFECTIVE AMMUNITION" listed as 1. Cartridge with split neck. 2. Hang Fire (cartridge) and 3. Excessive Pressure (cartridge). Paragraph 58 "c. BORE OBSTRUCTION" of which several types are listed. Paragraph 58 "d. and e." have to do with broken or defective parts. The real lesson here is that excessive headspace is a critical safety issue and in conjunction with another fault, can hurt a lot more than just your pride.
    Have a handful of .50 BMG partial cases - head and about 3/8" of case. All resulting from improper setting of head-space (rule was to set HS and timing on .50 BMG anytime barrel has been removed for cleaning, and preferably every time the gun was being placed in service). Tended to be exciting to gunner and often damaging to gun (feed cover, usually).


    HEAD SPACE MATTERS. JMO, from days as an Ordnance officer, in the long ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    Have a handful of .50 BMG partial cases - head and about 3/8" of case. All resulting from improper setting of head-space (rule was to set HS and timing on .50 BMG anytime barrel has been removed for cleaning, and preferably every time the gun was being placed in service). Tended to be exciting to gunner and often damaging to gun (feed cover, usually).


    HEAD SPACE MATTERS. JMO, from days as an Ordnance officer, in the long ago.
    I never blew a 50 'cause I followed procedure. Ha ha ha!
    But yes, HEAD SPACE MATTERS. That's the opinion of the government. I believe that's why they taught us to test headspace in Ordnance School and reject any rifle that didn't pass.

    Want to play with tape? Just put a plastic bag over your head and play in the highway. About as safe as trusting tape rather than a certified gauge.

    If the rifle swallows a "FIELD" Gauge, reject it. Get it fixed right or park it over a fireplace.
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    When you are setting off powerful explosions inches from your head,its probably better to err on the side of caution.Regards John.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    When you are setting off powerful explosions inches from your head,its probably better to err on the side of caution.Regards John.
    Indeed.
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    Actually, the fix is sooo much easier. If for example the headspace is excessive by .010" you simply remove the barrel, trim that much of the breech and shoulder, reinstall and check headspace. the bolt should just close on the go gage at his point. Then you simply remove the sight blades, springs, and setscrews from the front and rear sights, clean well with brake cleaner, then heat them with a propane torch til the solder just flows. Rotate the sights to the proper position and let them cool.

    The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives, or C.I.P did not form until 1914, well after cartridges like the 7x57, 8x57 and 7.65x53 were in use quite some time. Additionally, their scope was to guarantee the safety of civilian firearms, commercial ammunition and all other equipment operating by means of explosive substances.

    Since, for the most part, surplus ammunition has dried up, it is prudent when establishing headspace, to use the gages that conform to the standards used by the ammunition available to the user in their own country.

    Excess headspace will lead to the premature death of many actions, especially pre-98's. Excess headspace gives the bolt a running start at the lug seats when fired. In time, this batters the seats and often leads to lug setback. Think one inch punch verses a round house.

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