$1700 M39
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  1. #1
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    Default $1700 M39

    Whoever is paying $1700 for M39s from Mr. Burns, thank you for increasing the value of my collection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abulg1972 View Post
    Whoever is paying $1700 for M39s from Mr. Burns, thank you for increasing the value of my collection.
    No kidding. That's $1200 more than I paid for this: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...atest-Sako-M39 Yeah, not an antiques receiver but not a big deal since I live in a free state.

    I couldn't help but notice that the people bidding/running up were NRs, 1 and 5 feedback bidders.

    EDIT. Perhaps due to the above it's been relisted...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pointyears View Post
    No kidding. That's $1200 more than I paid for this: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...atest-Sako-M39 Yeah, not an antiques receiver but not a big deal since I live in a free state.

    I couldn't help but notice that the people bidding/running up were NRs, 1 and 5 feedback bidders.

    EDIT. Perhaps due to the above it's been relisted...
    Except that the relisted gun is not the same as the original gun ...

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    Must be members of the ID10T club.... SMH...
    Looking for USS Casimir Pulaski SSBN 633 items.

    This was the most interesting conversation I was ever not a part of and I look forward to the next conversation on the topic.
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    Is the seller a Burns family member? Aquebogue, NY is Long Island.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NLMosin View Post
    Is the seller a Burns family member? Aquebogue, NY is Long Island.
    Yes. Milstuff is Pat Burns.

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    Thought the story was that they sold all the good stuff and Classic bought the rest....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abulg1972 View Post
    Whoever is paying $1700 for M39s from Mr. Burns, thank you for increasing the value of my collection.
    Is there anything special about these $1700 rifles?

    Auction link?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    Is there anything special about these $1700 rifles?

    Auction link?
    http://www.gunbroker.com/item/623157844

    Looks like 2 kids got in a pissing contest, but those flame birch stocks are pretty and not common.
    And I confess to chasing one of these a little over a grand before I gave up. Yep, I wanted one and could afford it, but not for $1700!
    Last edited by jp; 03-04-2017 at 02:04 PM.

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    Current situation is weird, Pat Burns' "pretty" antique M39s are bringing $1100-$1700 while actually rare Finnish capture Mosin carbines sold by Larry Eisel end up selling for well under $1000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NLMosin View Post
    Thought the story was that they sold all the good stuff and Classic bought the rest....
    Evidently, they didn't. Ask yourself, though, how they could a) have known which rifles had antique receivers to not sell them to Classic since antiques are all they're allowed to sell with no FFL and b) what are the odds all of the antiques having beautiful stocks like they do?

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    THAT, is a beautiful stock but it's not worth any stinkin $1700! Man somebody just lost their mind.

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    Actually not that current of a situation. Collectors who collect for condition and/or rarity and collectors who collect nice looking stuff. That is why many people are pushing the cost of a refurbed 91/30 to the $300 price range, they are paying it too. Put a historical but rode hard and put away wet M91 and not so many people want it bad, or a worn M28/27? There are those of us out there that won't hesitate on a worn M28/27 but put out a nice looking 1934 that was probably put together post war or never saw combat and that will sell. Pretty rifles sell and often for more than a more rare rifle in less condition. Just like shooting, some will learn to use a sling properly and learn to shoot positions and others will shoot off a concrete bench with a soft rest to lay the rifle on. Both consider themselves serious shooters. I think the same goes for collecting, it is all perspective. Not a right or wrong, just different perspectives. Regards, John. PS for what it is worth it grates on me when I see this too, but it is what it is.

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    $1,700 is absolutely insane, flame stock or not. That is a gorgeous rifle, there is no denying that, but man, some people are nuts. I find it interesting that Mr. Burns' rifles bring 50% to 100% more than the same rifle would bring if offered by another seller. I know that he has a following, but still. I just don't understand it. I have never paid even $500 for any of my M39s, and that wasn't 2 years ago . . ..

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    It's probably the same bidder that bid 4600 for a refurbed PU sniper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pointyears View Post
    Evidently, they didn't. Ask yourself, though, how they could a) have known which rifles had antique receivers to not sell them to Classic since antiques are all they're allowed to sell with no FFL and b) what are the odds all of the antiques having beautiful stocks like they do?
    They were allowed to keep and sell their stock - without an FFL after they lost it - antique or not.

    $1700 is insane. Lots of fools and their money soon parted recently - P26s for $1200 and it goes on. And as eysis points out - a 1939 mostly matching type one M38 goes for a bit over $700 by grey man!

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    if people want it and have the means so be it. No $$ out of my pocket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
    It's probably the same bidder that bid 4600 for a refurbed PU sniper.
    If you are referring to the "sterilized" Vietnam bringback PU sniper sold by the ethically challenged gray man you have chosen a very poor example to demonstrate the very real phenomenon of buyer stupidity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    If you are referring to the "sterilized" Vietnam bringback PU sniper sold by the ethically challenged gray man you have chosen a very poor example to demonstrate the very real phenomenon of buyer stupidity.
    Yes, that is the one I was referring to. Sorry, I don't share the same enthusiasm for refurbished pu snipers, even if it is a "Vietnam bring back". Yes, I think someone overpaid for that rifle, especially with no documentation.

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    The M39 in question has a nice figured stock.....but....there are members here.....or used to post here.....with M39s that have outstanding figured wood grain stocks.....simply beautiful.

    I have a stock or two with a little nice wood grain......but never did buy a tiger striped, or crazy cool wood grained stocked M39....

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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
    Yes, that is the one I was referring to. Sorry, I don't share the same enthusiasm for refurbished pu snipers, even if it is a "Vietnam bring back". Yes, I think someone overpaid for that rifle, especially with no documentation.
    What are the indications that it has been refurbished?
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    The scope mount relief in the stock looks like it has a radius corner cut, the stock cartouche on the butt is almost completely sanded out, the rear sight leaf is completely blued, and the scope numbers on the barrel look overstruck. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does look like it was at least partially refurbished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abulg1972 View Post
    $1,700 is absolutely insane, flame stock or not. That is a gorgeous rifle, there is no denying that, but man, some people are nuts. I find it interesting that Mr. Burns' rifles bring 50% to 100% more than the same rifle would bring if offered by another seller. I know that he has a following, but still. I just don't understand it. I have never paid even $500 for any of my M39s, and that wasn't 2 years ago . . ..
    Such prices for some of us is outrageous, for the more affluent, it is often just a pittance to them. For those of us who have a few M39 Finns, it is go, go, go higher. For those of us looking to buy a M39, it is WTH?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
    The scope mount relief in the stock looks like it has a radius corner cut, the stock cartouche on the butt is almost completely sanded out, the rear sight leaf is completely blued, and the scope numbers on the barrel look overstruck. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does look like it was at least partially refurbished.
    Your assessment is not accurate and I recommend that you study PU snipers more if you desire to accurately comment on them. The rifle question did have some things done post war. It had a coat of shellac added for storage, rifle number added to the scope mount and the scope got changed at some point. This hardly makes it a refurbished rifle. It still has all it's factory matching parts (except the scope) which if you know anything about PUs is very hard to find. Add to that that it is a obvious Cold War bring back rifle and you get a highly collectible rifle. Price is perhaps a little too high but that is very much open to debate. To call this rifle a common refurb is a mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msniper19 View Post
    Your assessment is not accurate and I recommend that you study PU snipers more if you desire to accurately comment on them. The rifle question did have some things done post war. It had a coat of shellac added for storage, rifle number added to the scope mount and the scope got changed at some point. This hardly makes it a refurbished rifle. It still has all it's factory matching parts (except the scope) which if you know anything about PUs is very hard to find. Add to that that it is a obvious Cold War bring back rifle and you get a highly collectible rifle. Price is perhaps a little too high but that is very much open to debate. To call this rifle a common refurb is a mistake.
    My assessment is not far off, you just admitted it has had some things done post war. If it wasn't refurbished it would be original, which it is not. Just my opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
    My assessment is not far off, you just admitted it has had some things done post war. If it wasn't refurbished it would be original, which it is not. Just my opinion
    So the fact that just the scope has been changed makes the rifle a complete refurb? That fact that it retains 99% of it's factory original parts means nothing to you? To a Vietnam collector it doesn't matter that anything was done post WWII. This is not your average refurbished rifle. You don't seem to want to see or admit that. I do believe you don't know much about Russian 91/30s and are looking for any small thing to support your weak theory. And you still haven't address its significant as a piece of Cold War history. Are you actually wanting to learn here or just trolling?

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    Quote Originally Posted by msniper19 View Post
    So the fact that just the scope has been changed makes the rifle a complete refurb? That fact that it retains 99% of it's factory original parts means nothing to you? To a Vietnam collector it doesn't matter that anything was done post WWII. This is not your average refurbished rifle. You don't seem to want to see or admit that. I do believe you don't know much about Russian 91/30s and are looking for any small thing to support your weak theory. And you still haven't address its significant as a piece of Cold War history. Are you actually wanting to learn here or just trolling?
    Just for the sake of argument, what's the difference between slapping a coat of shellac on the sniper, swapping part(s) and renumbering (stuff), and slapping a coat of shellac, swapping part(s) renumbering metal pieces, and slapping paint on the metal as was done on a common 91/30. Where does the magical "I'm a refurb" line start? And is where that line as arbitrary as it's seeming?

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    Quote Originally Posted by msniper19 View Post
    So the fact that just the scope has been changed makes the rifle a complete refurb? That fact that it retains 99% of it's factory original parts means nothing to you? To a Vietnam collector it doesn't matter that anything was done post WWII. This is not your average refurbished rifle. You don't seem to want to see or admit that. I do believe you don't know much about Russian 91/30s and are looking for any small thing to support your weak theory. And you still haven't address its significant as a piece of Cold War history. Are you actually wanting to learn here or just trolling?
    From the pictures that were with the auction, I can't tell that rifle has 99% Izhevsk parts. Are you the buyer, if so I didn't mean to insult you. And no I'm not trolling!

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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
    The scope mount relief in the stock looks like it has a radius corner cut, the stock cartouche on the butt is almost completely sanded out, the rear sight leaf is completely blued, and the scope numbers on the barrel look overstruck. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does look like it was at least partially refurbished.
    The mount cut theory is a non-starter (the stock is definitely an original PU stock, as it isn't a half liner front/no liner rear). I doubt that the cartouche has been sanded at all. They were often very poorly struck, and the small diamond stock proof near the shallowest part of the cartouche is deep and intact. Also note how deep the acceptance mark is (they usually weren't poorly struck). And there is absolutely nothing unusual about the rear sight leaf being blued. I've never seen one not blued on a Mosin outside Yugoslavian refurbs.







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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
    My assessment is not far off, you just admitted it has had some things done post war. If it wasn't refurbished it would be original, which it is not. Just my opinion
    I'm going to temper my natural instincts and be gentle. You are incorrect and you are compounding your error by being pedantic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pointyears View Post
    Just for the sake of argument, what's the difference between slapping a coat of shellac on the sniper, swapping part(s) and renumbering (stuff), and slapping a coat of shellac, swapping part(s) renumbering metal pieces, and slapping paint on the metal as was done on a common 91/30. Where does the magical "I'm a refurb" line start? And is where that line as arbitrary as it's seeming?
    A refurb is when a rifle is completely rebuilt. Parts changed and re-numbered. When shellac is add for storage, this doesn't make the rifle a refurb.

    And no I am not the buyer of this rifle. I am a WWII collector not a Vietnam collector. I believe this rifle deserves a true evaluation and not to be trashed by people who don't understand what it is. It is a rare rifle. I actually passed on a identical rifle to this two years ago. Neat rifle just not my area of collecting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
    From the pictures that were with the auction, I can't tell that rifle has 99% Izhevsk parts. Are you the buyer, if so I didn't mean to insult you. And no I'm not trolling!
    From the pictures I can tell it is a original rifle. I am not the buyer and you did not insult me. I am merely trying to avoid mis-information from being spread. In time you will learn that this rifle, while maybe not what you collect (which is fine), is a rare rifle. And should not be degraded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msniper19 View Post
    A refurb is when a rifle is completely rebuilt. Parts changed and re-numbered. When shellac is add for storage, this doesn't make the rifle a refurb.
    So if it's only half rebuilt it's not been refurbed? And what's the difference between renumbering a scope and, say, a floorplate? Still looking to see where that line is drawn. Seems to me there are two states: original...or not, but willing to hear non-arbitrary definitions to the contrary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pointyears View Post
    So if it's only half rebuilt it's not been refurbed? And what's the difference between renumbering a scope and, say, a floorplate? Still looking to see where that line is drawn. Seems to me there are two states: original...or not, but willing to hear non-arbitrary definitions to the contrary.
    How is this rifle half rebuilt Pointyears? I would love to hear your take on what all was done to it. Because the scope got replaced? The scope didn't get replaced during refurb. They would have numbered it to the rifle had it been. So any sniper that is a scope mis-match is a post war rebuild? I think you need to better describe your view of a refurb, if you have one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msniper19 View Post
    How is this rifle half rebuilt Pointyears? I would love to hear your take on what all was done to it. Because the scope got replaced? The scope didn't get replaced during refurb. They would have numbered it to the rifle had it been. So any sniper that is a scope mis-match is a post war rebuild? I think you need to better describe your view of a refurb, if you have one.
    I'm not saying THAT rifle is half-rebuilt. I'm trying to pin you down on a definition that makes sense. So far...no go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pointyears View Post
    I'm not saying THAT rifle is half-rebuilt. I'm trying to pin you down on a definition that makes sense. So far...no go.
    I have made my point clear. You are just not understanding it. And in the process are not offering any information of your own. I am done trying to educate you on something you clearly have no desire to learn about. This seems to be the norm now on gunboards. Good luck in your collecting endeavors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msniper19 View Post
    From the pictures I can tell it is a original rifle. I am not the buyer and you did not insult me. I am merely trying to avoid mis-information from being spread. In time you will learn that this rifle, while maybe not what you collect (which is fine), is a rare rifle. And should not be degraded.
    Sorry, I still think this rifle is arsenal refinished, looks like a reblue. I still haven't got a answer about the scope numbers on the barrel being struck over existing ones, just a observation.

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    I had something typed up about how I've seen nicer flaming in m39s and for $1700 I'd expect to be in the top 5.

    But thats a beautiful rifle and something I've come to realize as a seller over the past few years is that an item is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Is that rifle worth $1700? Obviously to someone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
    Sorry, I still think this rifle is arsenal refinished, looks like a reblue. I still haven't got a answer about the scope numbers on the barrel being struck over existing ones, just a observation.
    The pics in the auction aren't good enough to say conclusively, but the only character in the serial that appears overstruck to me is the prefix letter. And it wouldn't make sense to strike out all the other Cyrillic characters on the gun, then leave the onr in the scope serial.







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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    I'm going to temper my natural instincts and be gentle. You are incorrect and you are compounding your error by being pedantic.
    Richard, your intellectual insults are amusing but not welcomed. Please refrain from using them as I have not insulted you in anyway shape or form, you are no better than anyone else on this forum. End!

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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
    Sorry, I still think this rifle is arsenal refinished, looks like a reblue. I still haven't got a answer about the scope numbers on the barrel being struck over existing ones, just a observation.
    The scope serial number on the barrel shank is factory original. It is the correct font just like the rest of the parts. The 2 and the 5 are distinct to Izhevsk. Here are examples to compare the fonts.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	M.91.30 PU Izhevsk 43 (8).jpg 
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Size:	225.7 KB 
ID:	2021097Click image for larger version. 

Name:	44 Izhevsk PU 2 (2).jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	319.4 KB 
ID:	2021105

    The Russian factories did make mistakes and would over-stamp their number mistakes when necessary. However, because of the white stuff in the numbers it is hard to tell from these pictures if there even is a over stamp. Here is a example of a over stamp where they made a mistake, hammered it out and re-stamped the correct number. Also, the bluing looks original to me. Again, the white stuff makes it tough to say for certain but the color is consistent with war time bluing compared to post war refurb bluing.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	43 Izhesvk 1 (23).jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	268.7 KB 
ID:	2021129

    Please provide your evidence from research that supports your theory that this is a refurbished rifle. No more opinions please.

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    Mani of us here have preddier sdocks than the $1700.00 dollar rifle, and widh antique receivers. Have an unissued 1943 M39 Guard rifle widh hang tag I bought from Kroh years ago. Also has an unissued or like new Guard sling. Not as flamed up as the expensive rifle, it's as new as a M39 can be and beautiful. I could see this rifle topping a thousand, but not the expensive one.

    Member CH has a M39 with the prettiest furniture I have ever seen. Have a couple '41 SAKO straight stocked rifles with beautiful wood and low numbers. I would guess they could fetch seven bills or more, but not near two grand.

    Lancebear

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    Quote Originally Posted by msniper19 View Post
    The scope serial number on the barrel shank is factory original. It is the correct font just like the rest of the parts. The 2 and the 5 are distinct to Izhevsk. Here are examples to compare the fonts.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	M.91.30 PU Izhevsk 43 (8).jpg 
Views:	20 
Size:	225.7 KB 
ID:	2021097Click image for larger version. 

Name:	44 Izhevsk PU 2 (2).jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	319.4 KB 
ID:	2021105

    The Russian factories did make mistakes and would over-stamp their number mistakes when necessary. However, because of the white stuff in the numbers it is hard to tell from these pictures if there even is a over stamp. Here is a example of a over stamp where they made a mistake, hammered it out and re-stamped the correct number. Also, the bluing looks original to me. Again, the white stuff makes it tough to say for certain but the color is consistent with war time bluing compared to post war refurb bluing.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	43 Izhesvk 1 (23).jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	268.7 KB 
ID:	2021129

    Please provide your evidence from research that supports your theory that this is a refurbished rifle. No more opinions please.
    Sure, no problem check gunbroker. Bright Fluorescent light and the camera is what I believe makes the bluing look the way it does, and then the chalk. I have two auction numbers from gunbroker that are refurbished mosin nagants, the bluing looks the same as the pu sniper and both rifles are under bright lighting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancebear View Post
    Mani of us here have preddier sdocks than the $1700.00 dollar rifle, and widh antique receivers. Have an unissued 1943 M39 Guard rifle widh hang tag I bought from Kroh years ago. Also has an unissued or like new Guard sling. Not as flamed up as the expensive rifle, it's as new as a M39 can be and beautiful. I could see this rifle topping a thousand, but not the expensive one.

    Member CH has a M39 with the prettiest furniture I have ever seen. Have a couple '41 SAKO straight stocked rifles with beautiful wood and low numbers. I would guess they could fetch seven bills or more, but not near two grand.

    Lancebear
    Yes, CH has a beautiful M39!

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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
    Sure, no problem check gunbroker. Bright Fluorescent light and the camera is what I believe makes the bluing look the way it does, and then the chalk. I have two auction numbers from gunbroker that are refurbished mosin nagants, the bluing looks the same as the pu sniper and both rifles are under bright lighting.
    Gunbroker is not a place to do research. You seem to have come to your conclusions through looking at pictures of rifles for sale. I have come to by conclusions by not only viewing several pictures but also examining several rifles in hand (to include several original matching rifles along with several refurbished rifles). Russian snipers are my primary interest of collecting and I only collect non-refurbished rifles. So I have spent a lot of time studying them. People here can decide for themselves who to believe. Good luck in your collecting.

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