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German hammer drilling gun

9K views 15 replies 9 participants last post by  mikesbmw 
#1 ·
My son got this German Drilling gun through his grandfather several years ago. It is probably a WWII bringback, but no proof of that (My son's grandfather was in WWII) He isn't a collector and the gun has no sentimental value for me (not for me, either - other side of the family). He would like to sell it but I admit I'm sort of stumped what to ask for it.

I did contact the helpful folks at the German Gun Collectors website and they had someone give me a rundown on it (below, just above the pictures. The problem I'm having is trying to figure what a reasonable price to list it - prices seem to run from $700-$5000 and up. Don't want to list it for what it isn't worth, but don't want to "underlist" it, either, my son can use the money.

Any ideas how to handle this?

Here's the German Gun Collectors' description:

Your son has a "Roux" action hammer Drilling with barrels made of Krupp steel. It was made and proofed in Zella-Mehlis in 1921. The proof shows that it was tested with smokeless powder and a 135gr. jacketed bullet. The shotgun chambers, if unaltered, are for 2.5" (65mm) shells. This is something that you should verify as 2.75" shells will fit in nicely but can raise the pressure substantially. The rifle is likely a 6.5x57R, but could be a Sauer or something else. A chamber cast and a slugging of the barrel would verify that. I did not see any indication of who might have been the maker.
Gun making is still going on in ZM. The proof house is now a museum and they have a nice web site with some English pages.


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#4 ·
Knowing nothing about Drilings, such as this guns. Yet whatever it may be, certainly a handsome and interesting piece! Considering the workmanship both evident in the photos and inherently involved in these largely hand-fitted guns, $1K would seem quite a bargain assuming condition is as good as it looks.

That said, not to leave this Thread without according a large thanks to our Thread author here, Rick the Librarian2, for his contributions and guidance as Moderator of sister, "The American Arsenal" Forum. Great job there Rick!
On this latter point...
My definite take!
 
#5 ·
Have worked on a few, sold a few...not a expert!
That being said I need to see the other stuff, writing on bottom picture of the barrel that's barely visible?
krupp steel...some of the best in history.
Smokless can be only the rifled barrel ...and or, or not the shotgun barrels.!
In my little bit of research all the proof marks tell you almost every thing!
Cal. Length and gauge...even power type....
I have a proof book some where that helped me through 3# identity crises...one German double!
 
#7 ·
Howdy;
I'm the lucky purchaser of this drilling and I have a few things to add for those of you who may be interested in the proofs and such. First off, I don't know where the idea that it's "likely" to be a 6.5x57 came from. Simply looking down the barrel with a flashlight tells you that it's a long, tapered case, looking nothing at all like the more modern necked case of the 6.5x57. What it is, is a 6.3x58R Sauer. I came to that conclusion by looking down the barrel and comparing it to several cases illustrated in Barnes and Warner's Cartridges of the World, 4th Edition. Also by looking at the proofmarks, one of which was 6.3 over 58, which pretty much correspond to the caliber, right? Knowing very little about German proofmarks, that's just a "swag" on my part. So I ordered a set of CH4D dies from BACO which came today and sized 30/30 brass fits perfectly after taking the rim thickness down to .048". Yes, the 30/30 brass is a bit short, but shouldn't pose a problem with my light cast bullet loads. That is, if I can figure out how to tighten the necks to hold the .266" bullet. The neck is sized to .267" so the fit is a bit loose. Not a problem, I'll figure something out.

There is something that seems odd about the engraving... and I think it's kinda neat, but maybe it's a common thing on drillings; I've only owned one, back in the seventies, so I don't know. The lock on the left side has some partridge-looking birds, but they're upside down. Now, if you hold it in your lap (as you might if you were left-handed, or when just sitting and admiring the engraver's art), barrels pointing to your right, they're right side up. Have any of you seen such a thing? Do you think it's a screwup by the engraver? Would anyone order it to be engraved that way, and if so, any idea why? I have thought of several scenarios, including a boss that freaked out when he inspected it before sale, and screaming "No way am I putting my name on THIS! AND, YOU'RE FIRED!" Perhaps it's one reason why so many drillings are apparently unsigned by the maker? Any suggestions, ideas and comments would be very welcome, and no doubt helpful to this newbie.

Oh yeah. I've temporarily made a brass front sight to get some idea of how high to make it and how well regulated the rifle barrel is. All in all, it's a cool drilling, and I'm just tickled plumb silly to have it...
 
#9 ·
I'm glad that Betterlucky is happy with the drilling. As some of you probably know, when you have a gun that is totally out of what you have had before, you have to depend on others to come up with the information. I hesitated with the description because apparently these came in so many shapes and sizes!! :)
 
#10 ·
Whatever the bullet calibre is, and I agree, BTW, it weighs 8.7grams - 134gr and is a steel-jacketed FMJ.

Gun looks to have been proofed in November of 1921.

Can you show us a better shot of image #7, so we can try and read the faint stamp that runs parallel to the axis of the bore? Something stahl, maybe?



tac
 
#11 · (Edited)
tacfoley2: I'll try to get a better pic tomorrow; I just had it apart to clean after today's shooting, and I'm afraid that's about as good as it will get. The stamp is really faint forward of what is visible in the #7 shown.
Air Tractor: I'll give it a whirl tomorrow, will send it to you via email, I'm just too danged old to be trying to figure out how to post pics. Hope it works. ;-)

I lucked out and my first groups (at a whole 20 yards, which means little or nothing, but at least they are groups) were only about 1" low and 1/2". Might get out tomorrow and try for a little distance. BTW, at what range were these cool contraptions originally sighted in? 12 grains of Accurate 5744 shows the most promise of the three tried (11.5, 12, and 13) with no pressure signs.

ADDENDA...
tacfoley2: I tried to get a picture of the line ending in "stahl", and just can't get any detail. Using a magnifying glass, it's clearly KRUPP, all caps, so it reads KRUPP STAHL. I'm curious about the "PR-KRUPP" on the shotgun barrels... there is a period between the two, not a hyphen. Does the PR signify a type of Krupp steel, or some other meaning? As far as I can tell, there's nothing in front of the inscription on the rifle barrel.

I don't know if my reloading info is of any interest, or if it's allowed on this forum, but here goes. If it's unacceptable, someone please let me know. Since the 30/30 brass is shorter than the original case, AND because the original called for the use of .260" bullets (a nominal ".259" expander is supplied, but it's actually.257") some "fudging" is required. I'm using my 6.5 Creedmoor sizing die to correctly size the case mouth, and then use a .265" expander from a Lyman M die (in the CH4D die) to properly size and expand the mouth for the .266" RCBS bullet.

All things considered, I'm pleasantly surprised that all this is working out so well and though the range is close, 1/2" and 3/4" groups are great for the first time out, IMHO. Can't wait to see what it will do at 50 and 100 yards.
 
#12 ·
Can you paper patch the loose bullet?

read some where ?
many small shops did work for each other, and larger shops to largest we'll know gunmakers.
keeping cost down.
Also keeping trade secrets and transactions such as these from exporters like c. Daily ..others.
so I guess they could squeeze more money with outsourcing work or materials, helped to get bigger bottom lines profits...
some gun left blank on top because exporter could do it they want to put any name or references on barrels.
or none if they choose not to if not a saving too! (Like hardware store here in the states.)
leaving things blank happened at the higest level exports to the least!
 
#13 ·
Hi all,
I am looking for some help on a German Drilling I have even value or where to go for help on it. I have been able to track down some information but several of the markings has stumped a few. So here goes the explanation. It is tri barrel 16G with the 8.75mm (not 100%). P. Oberhammer Munchen along one side of the barrel and Königl:Bayr:Hofbüchsenmacher on the other barrel. Cocked open it has multi markings which I have come to know is from the gun smith. There a bird crest, is a crown / U 118 35 and then another crown E. Then along another side 3235 etched in as well. One one of the inner barrels the bird crest, crown W another crown U 16 then circle with 16. I have not taken it a part but was told that sometimes there are markings under barrels depending on the age. My understanding it is 1800's. I have not found much information on the Oberhammer side and definitely nothing historical about "Königl:Bayr:Hofbüchsenmacher". Attaching a few images but have more. So aaaany help or where to go is very appreciative.
 

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#14 ·
More pics of the P Oberhammer
 

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#15 ·
The '118.35' is the gauge of the rifle barrel and generally corresponds to a 9.3mm caliber of one sort. I see a lot of these in 9.3x72R but there are a number of variations. You will need to cast the chamber to see which one it is. Slugging the bore is also advised as the 9.3's can vary from ~.357" to ~.366". My memory isn't in gear yet today but I think I recall that the gauge system was used until circa 1912...however, I may have that confused.
 
#16 ·
Thank you Hoot. Yea, after looking at some of the markings and even gotten like a conversion of the markings from another form sent to me it seems to have stumped on a couple of the markings. And then trying to find information on “Königl:Bayr:Hofbüchsenmacher”. Oberhammer I believe or what I found online is still gun smithing today. Their site is in German sooooooo trying to make sense on what to send.
Ty again for the info!
Michael B
 
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