German hammer drilling gun
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Thread: German hammer drilling gun

  1. #1
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    Default German hammer drilling gun

    My son got this German Drilling gun through his grandfather several years ago. It is probably a WWII bringback, but no proof of that (My son's grandfather was in WWII) He isn't a collector and the gun has no sentimental value for me (not for me, either - other side of the family). He would like to sell it but I admit I'm sort of stumped what to ask for it.

    I did contact the helpful folks at the German Gun Collectors website and they had someone give me a rundown on it (below, just above the pictures. The problem I'm having is trying to figure what a reasonable price to list it - prices seem to run from $700-$5000 and up. Don't want to list it for what it isn't worth, but don't want to "underlist" it, either, my son can use the money.

    Any ideas how to handle this?

    Here's the German Gun Collectors' description:

    Your son has a "Roux" action hammer Drilling with barrels made of Krupp steel. It was made and proofed in Zella-Mehlis in 1921. The proof shows that it was tested with smokeless powder and a 135gr. jacketed bullet. The shotgun chambers, if unaltered, are for 2.5" (65mm) shells. This is something that you should verify as 2.75" shells will fit in nicely but can raise the pressure substantially. The rifle is likely a 6.5x57R, but could be a Sauer or something else. A chamber cast and a slugging of the barrel would verify that. I did not see any indication of who might have been the maker.
    Gun making is still going on in ZM. The proof house is now a museum and they have a nice web site with some English pages.


    Pictures:












  2. #2
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    Without an actual makers name on it, you have a Guild gun. The underlever makes it a little less desirable. Asking price would be about 1K.

  3. #3
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    Thanks, reading between the lines of the evaluation and looking at prices online, that is pretty much what I gathered.

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  5. #4
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    Knowing nothing about Drilings, such as this guns. Yet whatever it may be, certainly a handsome and interesting piece! Considering the workmanship both evident in the photos and inherently involved in these largely hand-fitted guns, $1K would seem quite a bargain assuming condition is as good as it looks.

    That said, not to leave this Thread without according a large thanks to our Thread author here, Rick the Librarian2, for his contributions and guidance as Moderator of sister, "The American Arsenal" Forum. Great job there Rick!
    On this latter point...
    My definite take!

  6. #5
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    Have worked on a few, sold a few...not a expert!
    That being said I need to see the other stuff, writing on bottom picture of the barrel that's barely visible?
    krupp steel...some of the best in history.
    Smokless can be only the rifled barrel ...and or, or not the shotgun barrels.!
    In my little bit of research all the proof marks tell you almost every thing!
    Cal. Length and gauge...even power type....
    I have a proof book some where that helped me through 3# identity crises...one German double!

  7. #6
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    One picture I forgot to post had a circled "16" - indicating the shotgun barrels were 16 gauge, not 12 gauge. The researcher I contacted said they were a "short" 16 gauge.

  8. #7

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    Howdy;
    I'm the lucky purchaser of this drilling and I have a few things to add for those of you who may be interested in the proofs and such. First off, I don't know where the idea that it's "likely" to be a 6.5x57 came from. Simply looking down the barrel with a flashlight tells you that it's a long, tapered case, looking nothing at all like the more modern necked case of the 6.5x57. What it is, is a 6.3x58R Sauer. I came to that conclusion by looking down the barrel and comparing it to several cases illustrated in Barnes and Warner's Cartridges of the World, 4th Edition. Also by looking at the proofmarks, one of which was 6.3 over 58, which pretty much correspond to the caliber, right? Knowing very little about German proofmarks, that's just a "swag" on my part. So I ordered a set of CH4D dies from BACO which came today and sized 30/30 brass fits perfectly after taking the rim thickness down to .048". Yes, the 30/30 brass is a bit short, but shouldn't pose a problem with my light cast bullet loads. That is, if I can figure out how to tighten the necks to hold the .266" bullet. The neck is sized to .267" so the fit is a bit loose. Not a problem, I'll figure something out.

    There is something that seems odd about the engraving... and I think it's kinda neat, but maybe it's a common thing on drillings; I've only owned one, back in the seventies, so I don't know. The lock on the left side has some partridge-looking birds, but they're upside down. Now, if you hold it in your lap (as you might if you were left-handed, or when just sitting and admiring the engraver's art), barrels pointing to your right, they're right side up. Have any of you seen such a thing? Do you think it's a screwup by the engraver? Would anyone order it to be engraved that way, and if so, any idea why? I have thought of several scenarios, including a boss that freaked out when he inspected it before sale, and screaming "No way am I putting my name on THIS! AND, YOU'RE FIRED!" Perhaps it's one reason why so many drillings are apparently unsigned by the maker? Any suggestions, ideas and comments would be very welcome, and no doubt helpful to this newbie.

    Oh yeah. I've temporarily made a brass front sight to get some idea of how high to make it and how well regulated the rifle barrel is. All in all, it's a cool drilling, and I'm just tickled plumb silly to have it...

  9. #8
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    I'd like to see a pic of the upside down birds on the left side. Unknown why he would do that. Gary

  10. #9
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    I'm glad that Betterlucky is happy with the drilling. As some of you probably know, when you have a gun that is totally out of what you have had before, you have to depend on others to come up with the information. I hesitated with the description because apparently these came in so many shapes and sizes!!

  11. #10
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    Whatever the bullet calibre is, and I agree, BTW, it weighs 8.7grams - 134gr and is a steel-jacketed FMJ.

    Gun looks to have been proofed in November of 1921.

    Can you show us a better shot of image #7, so we can try and read the faint stamp that runs parallel to the axis of the bore? Something stahl, maybe?



    tac
    I am an international Gunboards patron

  12. #11

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    tacfoley2: I'll try to get a better pic tomorrow; I just had it apart to clean after today's shooting, and I'm afraid that's about as good as it will get. The stamp is really faint forward of what is visible in the #7 shown.
    Air Tractor: I'll give it a whirl tomorrow, will send it to you via email, I'm just too danged old to be trying to figure out how to post pics. Hope it works. ;-)

    I lucked out and my first groups (at a whole 20 yards, which means little or nothing, but at least they are groups) were only about 1" low and 1/2". Might get out tomorrow and try for a little distance. BTW, at what range were these cool contraptions originally sighted in? 12 grains of Accurate 5744 shows the most promise of the three tried (11.5, 12, and 13) with no pressure signs.

    ADDENDA...
    tacfoley2: I tried to get a picture of the line ending in "stahl", and just can't get any detail. Using a magnifying glass, it's clearly KRUPP, all caps, so it reads KRUPP STAHL. I'm curious about the "PR-KRUPP" on the shotgun barrels... there is a period between the two, not a hyphen. Does the PR signify a type of Krupp steel, or some other meaning? As far as I can tell, there's nothing in front of the inscription on the rifle barrel.

    I don't know if my reloading info is of any interest, or if it's allowed on this forum, but here goes. If it's unacceptable, someone please let me know. Since the 30/30 brass is shorter than the original case, AND because the original called for the use of .260" bullets (a nominal ".259" expander is supplied, but it's actually.257") some "fudging" is required. I'm using my 6.5 Creedmoor sizing die to correctly size the case mouth, and then use a .265" expander from a Lyman M die (in the CH4D die) to properly size and expand the mouth for the .266" RCBS bullet.

    All things considered, I'm pleasantly surprised that all this is working out so well and though the range is close, 1/2" and 3/4" groups are great for the first time out, IMHO. Can't wait to see what it will do at 50 and 100 yards.
    Last edited by Betterluckytg; 04-19-2017 at 06:25 PM. Reason: add info

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