1893 Tula M91 Serbian Crown/1914 PTG Austrian Capture
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Thread: 1893 Tula M91 Serbian Crown/1914 PTG Austrian Capture

  1. #1
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    Default 1893 Tula M91 Serbian Crown/1914 PTG Austrian Capture

    Well I haven't shared much about either of these rifles properly with any amount of pictures, so here it will be. I have had these for a little while now. This 1893 was a nice find with the Serbian crown marked on the barrel. As well as the weird little Moose looking crown. And the Austrian capture, which was earlier discussed by another member which I was eventually to acquire.

    The 1893 M91 Serbian crown with the other suspected Serbian crown is quite interesting. it is one of my earliest dated M91s. One day, I aspire to get a hold of one dated 1892, with the gothic style writing on the barrel! At any rate, an interesting rifle. With a lot of history. I do like the sling. It was on it when I got it. No marks I can see on the sling. It is a Finn captured rifle. I'd prefer it to not be, but at the time I couldn't resist it. So some pictures can do some talking.

    Here's a link to some good info about Serbia and their use of the M91. http://www.mosinnagant.net/global%20.../serbmosin.asp











    This 1914 Peter the Great M91 Austrian capture rifle was discussed here on the boards a while back. I have yet to acquire an Austrian 8x50R round to verify the conversion, but there appears to be strong evidence that it has been converted. There was a prior chamber cast also completed. It still has remnants of gold paint on the left side of the rear sight base which has been milled off and restamped in Austrian Schritt. There is a little ledge that can even be seen. There is an A stamped on the left side of the butt stock, and a W atop the stock comb, near the butt plate. As well as what appears to be a unit marked butt plate. The stock has been cracked and reglued, but still retains the Austrian style sling fastening apparatuses. One on the rear screwed in bottom of the butt, the other on the fore area of the stock drilled in place. I tried to get my cell phone up in there to see some chamber pics, best I could get so there's a few. The bolt has a few interesting marks on it I think of a Finn heritage. Floor plate was missing from the mag housing too. And the "bullet test" shows pretty good too.



















    Last edited by Iron_Colonel; 03-11-2017 at 03:22 AM.
    MOSIN PRIME!

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    I can't offer any great insights but I congratulate you on a fine pair of M91s!

    I would however caution you about the casual use of the term "moose looking crown" lest one of our own members claims that is a clear mark of his ownership

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    I like them both but I am especially partial to the 1893. That is a fine one with great markings.

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    The 1893 is fantastic. Looks like a pumpkin crown! I like it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Great pieces and like the others above me, I really like the 1893! The PTG is no slouch either though!
    Lotema

    -- Below are my favorites from the safe... The others are near and dear to me but these ones are a little more special.
    1905 - M91 - Sestroryetsk
    1916 - M91 - Tula "Peter the Great"
    1917 - M91 - Remington
    1942 - M91 - VKT "B" Barrel
    1941 - M39 - Sako
    1952 - M44 - Radom (11)
    1947 - M91/30 - Izhevsk
    1944 - M91/30 - Tikka

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    Thanks guys! A couple of nice ones that I got lucky to find. Still got a few ok ones left.
    MOSIN PRIME!

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    Yes. The moose crown is a martin08 property stamp. I was wondering where that thing went.

    Great rifles, Colonel.

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    The 1893 rifle looks to have a well traveled history and survived quite well from your pics. I see the stamps you have pointed out and they do look good as well as being informative.

    I have a feeling this particular rifle was one that was sold to Finland by the Germans in a huge hodge podge of Mosins.

    I say this because of the SA stamp in the box on the left side of the chamber area of the barrel just above the stock line and close to the receiver.

    I have a special place for the early M91 rifles, especially those in decent condition and covered in stamps denoting their history.

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    Great rifles! That '93' is really a piece of history. BTW, I liked your chamber pics, I'll have to give that a try with my phone!

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    Nice ones IC! I really like the 1893 - great history. Thanks to the Finns for saving it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Colonel View Post
    Serbian crown marked on the barrel.


    First, congratulations on these nice rifles!

    I doubt the crown is Serbian because of the letter M below it. The font is characteristic Russian "славянская вязь". The Serbs didn't use it.

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    These are the kinds of rifles I aspire to collect. Very nice.
    Scott Head
    Houston Area, Texas

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    Nick, can you elaborate on the markings? It appears to be rare in any case. Do we know what it is for in English? Or do we have a time frame if this is Russian stamp? Thanks, John.

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    I haven't seen this particular marking before, but the crown can be found on earlier Russian guns, Berdan 2 in particular. The font of the "M" under the crown is unmistakably Russian. Besides, what makes this crown Serbian?

    Here is a similar crown under Berdan 2 buttplate:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Crown NF.JPG  
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Very nice job with your close up pictures. Very interesting 1893...!!!!

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    Colonel, I thought the first was my old one but see it is not and it is even better looking. Both very nice examples.

    paul
    I felt much better after 11/6/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    First, congratulations on these nice rifles!

    I doubt the crown is Serbian because of the letter M below it. The font is characteristic Russian "славянская вязь". The Serbs didn't use it.

    Thanks for this Nick! I had spent a lot of time scouring the internet for a font that looked like this to try to make any sense of it. I thought I had read somewhere that the crown with the M below it was also Serbian. But I don't know my old Russian fonts. Now I guess we need to see more examples of early date Mosins 1894? and prior, and see if they have a crown like this on it.

    Here is where I had read about Crown/M marks. http://www.mosinnagant.net/global%20.../serbmosin.asp


    This happens to be a Serb C marked M91 with this crown over M.



    This is the JSE/Berndorfer marked M91 with a crown over M. But the M is a more normal looking font.




    And the same pics from this thread as well. 2 of the 3 rifles with a "crown over M" mark, are also Serbian property marked rifles. Both have the old font style M. But only one went through Finland.

    MOSIN PRIME!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Colonel View Post

    This happens to be a Serb C marked M91 with this crown over M.
    Very nice medley!

    This is a different case - it is the "C" that (allegedly) points at Serbian provenance, not the crown-M. The font of the "M" points at Russia.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Yes, of course. And the crown on the other one as well. But as we can see, there are two different M fonts. Still figure it's Russian on the normal looking font also?
    MOSIN PRIME!

    Always looking for interesting Imperial Mosins! Antique M91s, 91/38s and Imperial dated Nagant revolvers. PM me if you may have one you may be looking to trade/sell.

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    Nick, that's a cool acceptance date under the Berdan II buttplate. Years ago I posted a photo on the forum of a 91r acceptance date with the same type of markings under the buttplate of an antique Finnish M91. The stock had the finger rest area patched in with wood. Sold the rifle years ago and the photo was lost when the forum did the server change way back when.

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    Now we need more examples of these early date rifles, and how many have this font crown M mark?
    MOSIN PRIME!

    Always looking for interesting Imperial Mosins! Antique M91s, 91/38s and Imperial dated Nagant revolvers. PM me if you may have one you may be looking to trade/sell.

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    My 1893 dragoon does have the mark. I'm out of town and don't have a pic that shows it but it's there.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    First, congratulations on these nice rifles!

    I doubt the crown is Serbian because of the letter M below it. The font is characteristic Russian "славянская вязь". The Serbs didn't use it.


    Spot on Nick.

    This mark appears on several rifles in my Collection and to date, nobody has been able to determine exactly where is came from? We actually have a move in date and the Collection will be out of storage in a matter of months. Once I have access to everything, I'll pull out what I have with that mark on it.

    Based on memory, I believe that it appears in the exact same location on every rifle where the mark appears?

    Nice rifles IC! You need to beat the bushes and local shows to find an original 8x50mmR cartridge. Rifles that have remained as chambered by the Austro-Hungarians are extremely rare. The majority of the converted rifles that weren't lost during the war ended up in Finland where they were chamber sleeved back to 7.62x54mmR.

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

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    Thanks again Nick, for your input and the graphic with this. But why the M? Any ideas on the significance just that letter would have during that time to choose only it? And two different types M that we know of. In the font you have in the graphic, and a normal looking M?

    Thanks again JPS. I was thinking about going down to Tulsa but I don't know yet. I have some things going on, so I may need to save my leave for later. Be really surprised to find something local, but won't know unless you go. I have been to a show recently and there are more coming up local. To the hunt!
    MOSIN PRIME!

    Always looking for interesting Imperial Mosins! Antique M91s, 91/38s and Imperial dated Nagant revolvers. PM me if you may have one you may be looking to trade/sell.

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