M38 Molot marking
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Thread: M38 Molot marking

  1. #1
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    Default M38 Molot marking

    1007 of these pristine M38's came in about 3 years ago to I.O. and I think Classic took them all.
    I bought 6 of them @ 6:30 am and 2 hours later they were all gone. Odd M38's ,they look as if they were made last week.
    Bores are mirrors,not C/B'd,not one ding or scratch on the M38 stocks and all stamped matching.
    There is one cartouche only ,a "P" on the top of the butt stock just north of the steel butt plate.
    The cherry of the group was a 1944 M38.

    Anyone know the story on these?
    Maybe Ivan had these when the M44's came out and they got stashed and not issued .......
    Any ideas ?

    (sorry ,no pics)

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    frown

    Quote Originally Posted by bplvr View Post
    1007 of these pristine M38's came in about 3 years ago to I.O. and I think Classic took them all.
    I bought 6 of them @ 6:30 am and 2 hours later they were all gone. Odd M38's ,they look as if they were made last week.
    Bores are mirrors,not C/B'd,not one ding or scratch on the M38 stocks and all stamped matching.
    There is one cartouche only ,a "P" on the top of the butt stock just north of the steel butt plate.
    The cherry of the group was a 1944 M38.

    Anyone know the story on these?
    Maybe Ivan had these when the M44's came out and they got stashed and not issued .......
    Any ideas ?

    (sorry ,no pics)

    I am clueless.

  3. #3
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    Story is you have a Molot refurb and for all we know they could have been made last week or even remade last week. Bill
    zeebill live from the hills of West Virginia!

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  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeebill View Post
    Story is you have a Molot refurb and for all we know they could have been made last week or even remade last week. Bill
    And where did the new stocks come from? and the new barrels? And re-blueing them?
    IO gave $100.00 for them.Doing the math it doesn't seem financially feasible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zeebill View Post
    Story is you have a Molot refurb and for all we know they could have been made last week or even remade last week. Bill
    Sheesh, not this again.
    Quote Originally Posted by bplvr View Post
    And where did the new stocks come from? and the new barrels? And re-blueing them?
    IO gave $100.00 for them.Doing the math it doesn't seem financially feasible.
    Logic need not apply where conspiracy theories are involved.
    Last edited by Ol' Relic; 03-10-2017 at 05:08 AM.







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    This thread is useless without pics.

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    I missed out on these. Detailed pics would be welcome.

    Aztec imported quite a few very nice Mosins including M38s and former snipers. Many years were represented and most apparently were refurbished with high standards. One of my best Condition M38s was a 1944 Aztec.

    Perhaps the Molot rifles had a similar history.
    Now officially collecting Mosin M38s!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bplvr View Post
    And where did the new stocks come from? and the new barrels? And re-blueing them?
    IO gave $100.00 for them.Doing the math it doesn't seem financially feasible.
    Do you live on a Russian budget and make money in their society?
    I think the answer is no and in that case how would you know why or how they did or do things? They survive while we live and motivation may just be a whole lot different in value than what you or I enjoy. Molot made some nice rifles for sale until the ban stopped everything from coming in. With what they sold for I know no US company could have equaled them for the price even after importers gouged large amounts from them. Have you never heard an importer use the term new old stock or a dealer here use it. I have plenty of bits and pieces I discover here in that vein that are pennies on the dollar here what do you think it is over there? Molot made "Hunting Rifles" do you really think they were incapable of refurbing WW2 era stuff? There were constant signs of modern and fresh work being done on their stuff, did that not tell you something? On a local level I can get stocks copied and remade that without a bunch of experience are hard to spot as non-original for reasonable prices do you really think the Russian industrial complexes couldn't? They are starving for work of any kind! You are barking up the wrong tree if you think you can convince me and many others of the legitimacy of Molot imports. In the same vein their quality is really good at times and I do own some and shoot and enjoy them. Bill
    zeebill live from the hills of West Virginia!

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    Of course, the current thread is about Molot M38s, but the whole Molot conspiracy theory started in 2012 when the first batch of Molot-exported PU snipers were imported into the US.

    One wonders why out of all the milsurp rifles that have been imported over the years, the first to be subjected to this kind of questioning were that first batch of Molot snipers (and the fact that Vic and Tuco saw the rifles before they were imported at a military storage facility seemed to matter little to the conspiracy theorists). IMO, the whole stink was probably caused by one of two things:

    a. That batch of PU snipers, in addition to import marks also had commercialexport marks, which collectors were unaccustomed to seeing.

    b. A fear that a fairly large volume of PU snipers (previously very uncommon and expensive in the US) coming into the country was goingto drive prices down (and take away a certain "exclusivity").

    You'll never convince some collectors that anything exported through Molot is legit (and I wouldn't waste time trying to do so, any more than I would waste my breath trying to convince dyed in the wool Bigfoot afficionados that their favorite imaginary primate isn't real), but there has to be a counterpoint to all the mis/disinformation that's been disseminated on the subject lest it become another "internet fact".

    I've read a lot of conjecture, but in the end it's just somebody's opinion. No one has showed me a smoking gun or for that matter even any circumstantial
    evidence proving the whole Molot "counterfeiting" bruhaha. Aside from the export mark, Molots are just like any other refurb Mosin: some are nicer and some are
    less nice.

    Believe what you will, but don't believe something just because of someone's "gut feeling" that they posted on the internet.

    Here are a few detail pics of "newly made" Molots for your entertainment . . .







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    I work in the firearms industry and the price we paid for rifles from Molot there is absolutely no way they did anything to them beyond marking them and possibly cleaning them. We import powder, ammunition, primers and firearms directly from Russia so I understand how the economy works. I've also handled hundreds of Molot imported SKS, M38, M44, 91/30, 91/30 PUs. They're just rifles from deep storage marked as "Hunting carbines" to be lawfully exported from Russia. Unfortunately, this conspiracy theory still exists even in the great white north.

    I did manage to snag an original matching 1943 M38 from the Molot batch but the stock was heavily sanded (no CCCP or inspector's cartouche visible, but many other markings still visible) and it was reblued. Beyond the unissued post-war M44s I didn't notice any totally original M38s but we didn't necessarily get rifles from the same batch as your importers.
    Looking for Mosin 91/30 bayonet ГС4625. Will pay well!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bp2626 View Post
    I work in the firearms industry and the price we paid for rifles from Molot there is absolutely no way they did anything to them beyond marking them and possibly cleaning them. We import powder, ammunition, primers and firearms directly from Russia so I understand how the economy works. I've also handled hundreds of Molot imported SKS, M38, M44, 91/30, 91/30 PUs. They're just rifles from deep storage marked as "Hunting carbines" to be lawfully exported from Russia. Unfortunately, this conspiracy theory still exists even in the great white north.

    I did manage to snag an original matching 1943 M38 from the Molot batch but the stock was heavily sanded (no CCCP or inspector's cartouche visible, but many other markings still visible) and it was reblued. Beyond the unissued post-war M44s I didn't notice any totally original M38s but we didn't necessarily get rifles from the same batch as your importers.
    I won't get into the charges that Molot fiddled with these rifles. I really think that Molot got involved as a middle man when export laws changed in Russian requiring C.I.P. to proof the rifles. Hence the billboard on the barrel under the handguards and later on the receiver wall. They may have done some minor work on the guns since they provided a booklet for their "hunting rifles" with a date the work was completed with someones initials.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by qz2026 View Post
    I won't get into the charges that Molot fiddled with these rifles. I really think that Molot got involved as a middle man when export laws changed in Russian requiring C.I.P. to proof the rifles. Hence the billboard on the barrel under the handguards and later on the receiver wall. They may have done some minor work on the guns since they provided a booklet for their "hunting rifles" with a date the work was completed with someones initials.
    All I can say many of the rifles I inspected had fresh wood work, fresh blue. and were recrownded. They came from Molot who did the work will never be known but it was freshly done that I do know. Export laws to Canada are just a little different aren't they? So what you are seeing and where things were coming from may have been totally different. You saw SVT's and we could not would that not be a totally different process to get them possibly. I got no booklet with any rifles freshly made or otherwise from Molot or at the distributer either. it does not surprise me at all as differences in the same batch of rifles will almost always vary from source to source. The milsurp rifle industry is just a large maze of processes and variations with everyone and every batch showing endless variations. The integrity of the history behind many rifles we chose to collect can often be challenged and basically we all choose to heed or not heed that part of the game. Bill
    zeebill live from the hills of West Virginia!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zeebill View Post
    All I can say many of the rifles I inspected had fresh wood work, fresh blue. and were recrownded. They came from Molot who did the work will never be known but it was freshly done that I do know. Export laws to Canada are just a little different aren't they? So what you are seeing and where things were coming from may have been totally different. You saw SVT's and we could not would that not be a totally different process to get them possibly. I got no booklet with any rifles freshly made or otherwise from Molot or at the distributer either. it does not surprise me at all as differences in the same batch of rifles will almost always vary from source to source. The milsurp rifle industry is just a large maze of processes and variations with everyone and every batch showing endless variations. The integrity of the history behind many rifles we chose to collect can often be challenged and basically we all choose to heed or not heed that part of the game. Bill
    Based on observed dates on storage crates, refurbishment facilities were refurbing Mosins into the 80s. Of course a rifle refurbished in the 1980s and unused since will look "fresh" for wood and blue.

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    Refurbed Mosins have invariably had work done to the stock, and are normally recrowned, whenever and by whomever they were exported.

    As for how one concludes that a recrowning, or for that matter, wood work is "freshly done" I have no clue: maybe radiocarbon dating? If you want to see "fresh wood work", look at the inletting inside the stock of an unissued non-refurb. It looks like it was done yesterday, and that goes for examples imported a year ago or twenty years ago.

    Again, I am waiting for someone to show me a real diifference between Molot-exported refurb Mosins and any other refurb Mosin, aside from export marks . . .
    Last edited by Ol' Relic; 03-12-2017 at 07:57 AM.







  16. #15
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    [QUOTE=bplvr;6432306]1007 of these pristine M38's came in about 3 years ago to I.O. and I think Classic took them all.
    I bought 6 of them @ 6:30 am and 2 hours later they were all gone. Odd M38's ,they look as if they were made last week.
    Bores are mirrors,not C/B'd,not one ding or scratch on the M38 stocks and all stamped matching.
    There is one cartouche only ,a "P" on the top of the butt stock just north of the steel butt plate.
    The cherry of the group was a 1944 M38.

    I picked one up 3 years ago. Everybody was posting pics of their special/unique M38's. Mine was simple, nothing special, but a nice clean M38. Wow, that was 3 years ago??

  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    Of course, the current thread is about Molot M38s, but the whole Molot conspiracy theory started in 2012 when the first batch of Molot-exported PU snipers were imported into the US.

    One wonders why out of all the milsurp rifles that have been imported over the years, the first to be subjected to this kind of questioning were that first batch of Molot snipers (and the fact that Vic and Tuco saw the rifles before they were imported at a military storage facility seemed to matter little to the conspiracy theorists). IMO, the whole stink was probably caused by one of two things:

    a. That batch of PU snipers, in addition to import marks also had commercialexport marks, which collectors were unaccustomed to seeing.

    b. A fear that a fairly large volume of PU snipers (previously very uncommon and expensive in the US) coming into the country was goingto drive prices down (and take away a certain "exclusivity").



    You'll never convince some collectors that anything exported through Molot is legit (and I wouldn't waste time trying to do so, any more than I would waste my breath trying to convince dyed in the wool Bigfoot afficionados that their favorite imaginary primate isn't real), but there has to be a counterpoint to all the mis/disinformation that's been disseminated on the subject lest it become another "internet fact".

    I've read a lot of conjecture, but in the end it's just somebody's opinion. No one has showed me a smoking gun or for that matter even any circumstantial
    evidence proving the whole Molot "counterfeiting" bruhaha. Aside from the export mark, Molots are just like any other refurb Mosin: some are nicer and some are
    less nice.

    Believe what you will, but don't believe something just because of someone's "gut feeling" that they posted on the internet.

    Here are a few detail pics of "newly made" Molots for your entertainment . . .

    From the looks of these photos, it appears MOLOT may have used the salt spray then place in a mud bag for two weeks method of aging these newly manufactured rifles. Just a thought, not necessarily a theory.

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    I don't think Bill is necessarily saying Molot made them new but more than likely Molot had a bunch of surplus parts and put them together. Refinished them and if they needed to make new stocks made them. It could also be they were sitting in a storage facility having been refurbished in the 1980s or whenever the Russians needed work for their people to do.

    As for the exact rifles sitting in a military storage facility is there any pictures of that? .

    I'm going to lean with Molot made them as needed and will continue to once the import restrictions end. Just my opinion.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by capt14k View Post
    I don't think Bill is necessarily saying Molot made them new but more than likely Molot had a bunch of surplus parts and put them together. Refinished them and if they needed to make new stocks made them. It could also be they were sitting in a storage facility having been refurbished in the 1980s or whenever the Russians needed work for their people to do.

    As for the exact rifles sitting in a military storage facility is there any pictures of that? .


    I'm going to lean with Molot made them as needed and will continue to once the import restrictions end. Just my opinion.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
    Kurt I respectfully disagree. Of the handful of different importings of PU snipers over the last 25 years or so. The Molot marked rifles are the ones that have the most provenance. We actually know where these came from. Lord only knows where the rest of those imports came from. That is really the grey area. I think they are all fakes. haha
    Last edited by Alsky; 03-15-2017 at 09:59 AM. Reason: I spelled sniper wrong!!
    Now I'm going to have to clean that rifle!!

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    Perhaps someday we'll manage to capture a Bigfoot alive and waterboard all the juicy, lurid details about the Molot conspiracy out of him. lol







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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    Perhaps someday we'll manage to capture a Bigfoot alive and waterboard all the juicy, lurid details about the Molot conspiracy out of him. lol
    And the true meaning of MO.
    Now officially collecting Mosin M38s!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken in Iowa View Post
    And the true meaning of MO.
    That has been solved by Ratnik. To be released in new book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alsky View Post
    Kurt I respectfully disagree. Of the handful of different importings of PU snipers over the last 25 years or so. The Molot marked rifles are the ones that have the most provenance. We actually know where these came from. Lord only knows where the rest of those imports came from. That is really the grey area. I think they are all fakes. haha
    I wasn't actually referring to the Snipers but the M38 brought up by OP. In all honesty I don't pay much attention to any Russian Arms other than those properly rebuilt by the Finns . I was just theorizing how like new rifles show up 3 years ago. Once the import restrictions are removed and if they continue to appear then I think we will have our answer.

    As for "fakes" I am starting to believe a large portion of Finns being traded are not how they were when they left Finland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by capt14k View Post
    That has been solved by Ratnik. To be released in new book.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
    So MO is Not MOlot? Darn.

    Looking forward to the new book.
    Now officially collecting Mosin M38s!

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    Quote Originally Posted by capt14k View Post
    That has been solved by Ratnik. To be released in new book.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
    Will this info increase or not affect the value of said rifles? Inquiring minds want to know...
    "When Stalin says dance, a wise man dances."
    N. Khrushchev in Khrushchev Remembers

    I am looking for a pre-war or war-time M38 stock

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    Quote Originally Posted by learjet60 View Post
    Will this info increase or not affect the value of said rifles? Inquiring minds want to know...
    It certainly won't increase the value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by learjet60 View Post
    Will this info increase or not affect the value of said rifles? Inquiring minds want to know...
    Did the fact Burns was screwing with M39's decrease the value of them? Much to my surprise no because they released them through another source which destigmatized them and raised their values significantly. Sometimes with surplus rifles it doesn't work to apply logic apparently. Have you noticed that certain high value Molot rifles are appearing on the market a bit lately? I would say some people may be thinking the reappearance of them after boundary laws have been removed may indeed lower their value. Then again this brilliant mind thought Burns screwing with M39's would endanger the value of them and unloaded a bunch of stuff I should have maybe held on to but didn't. So use your inquiring mind and draw your own answers because many of us here have no clear cut answers. Bill the Genius?
    zeebill live from the hills of West Virginia!

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    Well this thread certainly veered from my OP.........
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