Makarov, no country of origin!
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Thread: Makarov, no country of origin!

  1. #1

    Default Makarov, no country of origin!

    Just picked this up and have to run it thru the cleaner. Import stamp says it is Bulgarian, but not the usual markings! What do you think?
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  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Well, the hammer and safety scream Bulgarian re-furb process, but I think you might have a Soviet produced pistol there.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Default

    Could be some sort of refurb.
    As I enlarge pic #2, do I see ghosts of other numbers on the frame? Most prominent is a 5?
    Top Gun Supply had some Bulgarians with uncommon markings for sale about a year ago.

    Also, had no circle 10. Their example is a 1989 (no lot designation). Yours seems to be a 1985 (lot designation in Cyrillic).
    All I see is Bulgarian. I have a 1984 and the de-cocker is the same as yours (hole all the way through for detente spring). Mine also has the short slide serrations on left side.
    Last edited by martinbanner; 03-11-2017 at 12:04 AM. Reason: '84 Bulgy does have serrations on decocker

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  5. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    Isn't it an unmarked Arsenal commercial Bulgy maybe?

  6. #5
    Join Date
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    I'd go with Bulgarian also. There is nothing new about sterile issue weapons and this, along with martinbanner's, is likely one. I have seen a picture of a similar pistol, 1995 date, with the slide serial number on the other side. Bulgaria sold to a lot of countries including those at war with each other, the Iran-Iraq War being a particularly well know instance. As far as I can tell from a very limited sampling, Bulgaria did not mark refinished pistols as refinished. So, I have to ask you Just4HavinFunOldGuns, any odd marks anywhere on your pistol? Regards, ABTOMAT

  7. #6

    Default Makarov

    Serial & PW ARMS is a billboard. Extra serrations on the other side of slide, top slide glare serrations not as pronounced, top sight profile is different from my other 5 Bulgy's. Rear is a #6 instead of the usual #5. Profile of the rear of the slide viewed from the hammer is different. they seemed to have shaped it down more. I purchased it to fit my Marschal's grip in unfinished maple that I intended to stain Swedish dark red. Now I don't know, might throw it in the safe. I'm going to throw it in the can of spirits overnight and check it out more tomorrow.
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  8. #7
    Join Date
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    Default Makarov

    The wide sight "rail" is a give away. I can duplicate your slide comparisons with my ZZ type 59 and my '84 Bulgy. My ZZ also has a small flat just before the front sight.
    Chinese slide is on the left in all pics.
    I'd be interested if you would compare the slides, from the muzzle, and see if any difference is noticed in your slide beards.
    A match to my view would almost certainly confirm a Chinese slide. But still what looks like a Bulgy de-cocker. My type 59 de-cocker does not have the hole.
    Still the markings are a mystery...and it was imported as a Bulgarian. Does something say "tampered"? Maybe Chinese refurbished with Bulgy Stamps?


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    Last edited by martinbanner; 03-11-2017 at 12:33 AM.

  9. #8
    Join Date
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    Default Makarov

    A look at the field stripped pistol may tell you more. The Bulgarian should have a "D" shaped cutout in the barrel shroud frame. A ZZ Chinese should have no cutout.
    Bulgarian........................Norinco Chinese
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  10. #9

    Default

    It has the D cutout. No other markings except a sideways 2 on the barrel right above the barrel pin, and what looks like a sideways 5 on the other side. Will get some muzzle shots after I wake up, worked last night, but from my view they look similar, Bulgy has slightly more radius on the edges. I am curious who her parents are, but not bad for $223, all the same.

  11. #10

    Default Slide beards, (Or is it Slide Burns!)

    Now that I'm awake, I see what you mean about the slide beards. I also took a better picture of the ghost stamping.
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  12. #11

    Default

    Refinished and reengraved Bulgarian?

  13. #12
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    Default

    I think you have a FrankenMak. Bulgy frame with a Chinese slide. The circle 10, frame s/n, and slide s/n were wiped and the pistol was refinished and re-stamped with the former s/n from the Bulgy, sans circle 10 (ghost 150 now discernible).
    My guess would be this was done by the importer, to add to their count (every pistol is worth money), and they couldn't leave the factory circle 10 because they had made a hybrid, plus their markings would match...I repeat guess.
    Anyhow, you have what boils down to a Bulgy shooter. Those grip stocks would be a very nice addition to any Mak.

  14. #13
    Join Date
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    martinbannner, in this rare instance I must disagree as agreeably as I'm able. Yes, I think the frame may have been renumbered after the refinish. In fact the pictures show some traces of pitting remain. Chinese slide were made in the pre-1973/1974 Soviet style. The safety detents were round. After 1973/1974 Soviet PM's had the oval detents. The Chinese sight rib would be about 4 mm wide and the Bulgarian 3 mm wide because the ejection port is larger. The Bulgarians copied the 1974 era Russian PM's that when they began making them. Sheesh! This is picky stuff. Also, if you pull the slide of the Chinese and Bulgarians and turn them over you'll see slightly different machine works in the rear portion. You may well be right that it is a parts piece. Cheers, ABTOMAT

  15. #14
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    ABTOMAT rocks!
    I defer to your knowledge and use this discussion as a learning opportunity. I stand corrected, the slide is not identified as Chinese.
    For my dense clarity, you're implying; with the wider sight rib (post #6-pic #5; 5 rows of dimples in the slide rib, vs. 4 rows) and the oval detents...the slide may be Russian, before the ejection port was enlarged.

  16. #15

    Default Makarov

    Thanks for all the info guys.
    One last thing is I noticed the slides are cut/ milled different. The Bulgy, back behind the rear sight going up to the sight rail is noticeably straight up where as the other is more contoured with more of a lip, like a mini beaver-tail. Also the Bulgy has more of a noticeable contour in the milling of the bottom of slide at the front of the slide! I installed what I think is an East German safety on it and boy that one is harder to flip. Flips down nice but take's an effort back up.
    I purchased it as a GS special anyway, hammer won't drop consistently was what they said, but I haven't seen any problems yet after a good cleaning and oiling. Next weekend when I am off will probably have too run out and throw 1/2 dozen box's thru it.
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  17. #16

    Default Mak collection, minus 2 in the safe

    This is what I have so far, all 4 Bulgarian and a commercial DS Russian IJ70-18AH in 9x18.
    You can never have enough mags.
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  18. #17

    Default Furniture on the Makarov, no country of origin!

    A couple more coats and I think I will be happy with the color.
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