#180 Weekend Quiz 4U, 19 August 1942 DIEPPE RAID - Page 2
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Thread: #180 Weekend Quiz 4U, 19 August 1942 DIEPPE RAID

  1. #46
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    Cannot open the attachments.
    KH
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by kh View Post
    Cannot open the attachments.
    Pretty much normal around here lately.
    Nescire autem quid ante quam natus sis acciderit, id est semper esse puerum.
    (To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child.)


    -M. Tullius Cicero

  3. #48
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    Hint 1: Begin the search where Molotov stayed in England.
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  5. #49
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    I can find no reference to the name of Molotov's maid.
    Nescire autem quid ante quam natus sis acciderit, id est semper esse puerum.
    (To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child.)


    -M. Tullius Cicero

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by tplan View Post
    I can find no reference to the name of Molotov's maid.
    Tplan

    maid is very good and you can be sure that there is a reference. There even is a photo of here. She is standing directly behind Molotov.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 Crew Pe-8.jpg

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  7. #51
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    Yep, she's the one I saw getting off the train. So were there two women, or one? Churchill says two, and that looks like another woman next to her in the photo.
    Nescire autem quid ante quam natus sis acciderit, id est semper esse puerum.
    (To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child.)


    -M. Tullius Cicero

  8. #52
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    For a reason I could, but cannot tell you in the moment I am sure that there was only one maid with Molotov.
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  9. #53
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    M.A. Shtepenko?
    Nescire autem quid ante quam natus sis acciderit, id est semper esse puerum.
    (To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child.)


    -M. Tullius Cicero

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by tplan View Post
    M.A. Shtepenko?

    There was only one Shtepenko during the flight, Major Aleksandr Shtepenko, one navigator.
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  11. #55
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    Hint 2: You now know what she was, but you will not find her name in England.
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  12. #56
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    No clue where to look?
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  13. #57
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    I had already been through all the combinations I could think of when I came up with the last guess, in English, Russian, and even German.
    Nescire autem quid ante quam natus sis acciderit, id est semper esse puerum.
    (To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child.)


    -M. Tullius Cicero

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by tplan View Post
    I had already been through all the combinations I could think of when I came up with the last guess, in English, Russian, and even German.
    Ask, where did Molotov go from GB?
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  15. #59
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    Hint 4: When you know where Molotov went from UK look for a diary.
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  16. #60
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    no ideas?
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  17. #61
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    OK, you can find her in the White House diaries, "Roosevelt Day by Day", the Ushers Diary for instance, as Molotov was a guest of the White House. You can look for her, but from tomorrow I will start the article.
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  18. #62
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    Her name was Maria Isimbalova-
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  19. #63
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 1

    Much has been written about this raid. Many authors just repeated the propaganda phrases or the reports of Combined Operations of 1942, others wrote excellent books and articles. This quiz is an article, but quite near to a book with 276 pages, but one focus is on the pictures, more than 6000.

    The next focus is on the men, who participated on both sides. It is interesting that there are hundreds of photos showing the allied side, their leaders and officers, but very few of the Germans of Dieppe, though normally there are more photos of the winner of a battle. Each and every small step of each and every allied unit with nearly each and every person involved, officer or other rank, became discussed in literature, while German reports and propaganda after the battle just showed the allied victims plus destroyed tanks and boats, German high ranking persons visiting the town and presenting themselves as the winners, but except the official military ones there are no reports about the actions of the German commander and officers directly in Dieppe or the German soldiers, who fought in the buildings of the town or at the beachfront.

    The third focus is on the backgrounds of the raid, the ambitions, ruthlessness and unscrupulousness of some leaders and the pressure from many sides leading to the mostly political reasons to start this operation. Therefore you will read many side- and backgroundstories and remarks.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 2

    Operation Jubilee, 19 August 1942

    A disaster began with a friendly formulated order: "Please carry out an attack against a French port with so many troops that the enemy is compelled to respond as if it is an invasion." This order was given by Winston Churchill in spring 1942 to Lord Louis Mountbatten, the Commander of Staff of Combined Operations.

    01. Background

    In 1942 Germany operated deep in the Soviet Union and the United States and the Soviet Union, as well as public opinion in the UK, were urging the British government to relieve the Eastern Front and the pressure on the Soviet Union to discourage further German expansion in the East by opening a second front in north-west Europe. On 19 August 1942 a raid was launched by Allied forces on the German-occupied French port of Dieppe. Initially British and Canadian politicians and newspapers celebrated this raid to have been a great success.

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    The raid on Dieppe made the headlines everywhere. The newspapers unanimously hailed a costly, yet necessary victory. The official story was a virtual reproduction of the reports released by Combined Operations Headquarters. Within a few days, the story of Dieppe appeared set in stone. With the tragedy barely over, all the key elements, as well as the justifications still emphasized by many today grabbed the headlines.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 3

    Like the other dailies, Le Devoir included Canadian Press released announcing that Canadian troops had managed to land on all the selected spots and took the beach by storm after sustaining a particularly violent resistance on their left flank while they landed tanks at the centre and the right flank quickly reached its objective.

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    In an editorial, Georges Pelletier moderated such enthusiasm by pointing out that the raid was nothing more than test like so many operations before.

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    As for La Presse and Sunday Pictorial of 6 September 1942, it was concluded that Dieppe was a complete success, comparing the landing to the raid against St. Nazaire when the Germans had been caught by surprise and sustained very heavy casualties. Edmond Turcotte, Le Canadas Editor-In-Chief, insisted the raid was a precursor to a greater invasion of continental Europe: a dress rehearsal for the day when British forces throw aside Nazi fortifications.
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  22. #66
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    I'm glad it is now time to learn. I have trouble with the quizzes but always enjoy the pictorial history. This is looking very interesting already and I'm looking forward to more.

    Neal

  23. #67
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    Thank you, Neal, you will not be disappointed!
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 4

    The German propagandist Lord Haw Haw of the English-language propaganda radio programme Germany Calling commented on the Dieppe raid: Too large to be a symbol, too small to be a success.

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    BTW: Lord Haw Haw was not a single person.

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    First there was Wolf Mittler, a German journalist who spoke near-flawless English,

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    for a short time in 1939 Norman Baillie-Stewart, a former officer of the Seaforth Highlanders,

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    and especially William Brooke Joyce for the most time of the war, his voice, with that of Churchill, Hitler

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    and the comedian Thomas Reginald "Tommy" Handley, quickly becoming the best known on radio.

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    The name Lord Haw-Haw (of Zeesen) was coined in 1939 by the pseudonymous Daily Express radio critic Jonah Barrington (real name Cyril Carr Dalmaine). It referred to the affected upper-class English accent: He speaks English of the haw-haw, damn-it-get-out-of-my-way variety, and his strong suit is gentlemanly indignation. The name re
    ferred initially to Wolf Mittler (or possibly Norman Baillie-Stewart). When Joyce became the best-known propaganda broadcaster, the nickname was transferred to him.

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    Press in Germany, Vichy France

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    and especially in neutral countries saw the raid a little different.

    A closer reading of the historical record makes clear that the Dieppe Raid was less a learning experience on how to conduct amphibious assaults than a template for how to spin a debacle, to protect the reputations of powerful military and political figures and today generally the raid is ranked as one of the most disastrous failures of the war.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 5

    In Great Britain and in the USA, which had entered the war in December 1941 only, political and military leaders were divided with respect to the possibilities and the merits of a second front. A number of British and American army commanders voted for an early second front,

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    including the American chief of staff, General George Catlett Marshall, Jr., who from 4 April to 17 April 1942 even led a delegation to London to argue for an invasion in France in 1942.

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    He came together with Harry Lloyd Hopkins, Roosevelt's chief diplomatic adviser and troubleshooter and unofficial emissary to

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    British Prime Minister Winston Churchill. They suggested eliminating Operation Gymnast (later Operation Super-Gymnast and finally Operation Torch) into Libya nd instead favored a landing of six British divisions in either Brest or Cherbourg in early autumn 1942 (Operation Sledgehammer).

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    Major-General Dwight David Eisenhower had the same opinion and wanted to land troops in France as soon as possible. Marshall and Eisenhower enjoyed the support of

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    President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, at least initially. He had promised Churchill that the United States would give priority to the war against Germany, and would settle accounts with Japan later. This decision became known as the Germany (or Europe) First principle. According to the 29 March 1941 report of the secret ABC-1 conference (American, British and Canadian Conference) from 29 January to 27 March 1941 (the U.S. were not yet at war with either Germany or Japan, but the basic planning agreement for the U.S. to enter the war was set here), the Americans, Canadians and British had agreed that their strategic objectives were:

    (1) "The early defeat of Germany as the predominant member of the Axis with the principal military effort of the United States being exerted in the Atlantic and European area;" and

    (2) A strategic defensive in the Far East."
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 6

    01.00.01. Isolationists

    The "Germany First" war strategy was not announced to the American people for a number of reasons. One compelling reason for secrecy was the fact that the United States was not yet at war with Germany. There would also have been major political risks for Roosevelt in disclosing the proposed war strategy. Announcing it would have been an admission that America's army in the Philippines would be abandoned to its fate in the event of a Japanese attack, and it would have attracted the fury of the powerful isolationist and peace lobbies,

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    like America First. The America First Committee (AFC)

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    was led by Quartermaster General of the United States Army in World War I Major General (ret) Robert Elkington Wood. It had up to 800,000 dues-paying members and the sympathies of many political figures,

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    including Democratic Senators Burton Kendall Wheeler of Montana and David Ignatius Walsh of Massachusetts,

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    Republican Senator Gerald Prentice Nye of North Dakota

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    and Socialist Party leader Norman Mattoon Thomas.

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    Its most prominent spokesman was the aviator Charles Augustus Lindbergh, jr..

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    Among many other celebrities supporting America First were novelist and Nobel Prize winner Harry Sinclair Lewis,

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    Washington socialite (and oldest child of U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt) Alice Lee Roosevelt Longworth

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    and fi
    lm producer Walter Elias Walt Disney.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 7

    01.00.02. Interventionists

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    Churchill knew all this. He supported the opposite side, the Fight for Freedom Committee

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    (FFF, Chairman Bishop Henry Wise Hobson II,

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    using Wendell Lewis Willkie,the 1940 Republican candidate for president, as one of their most effective speakers if not the leading interventionist spokesman in America) and

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    the Committee to Defend America by Aiding the Allies (CDAAA), often called the White Committee after its first chairman,

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    Pulizer Prize winner William Allen White, which became the leading interventionist mass pressure group until the outbreak of war in December 1941. In fact the CDAAA was the mouth of Franklin Roosevelt, as White reported: I never did anything the President didn't ask for, and I always conferred with him on our program."

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    Co-founder and later chairman of the CDAAA was Clark Mell Eichelberger, Director of the League of Nations Association
    and promoter of international cooperation. Clark Eichelberger experienced massive influence and support from the British, including financial aid. For instance he was invited to visit the U. K. in late summer of 1941. His travel expenses were covered by the British government

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    and the American Embassy in London arranged for him to stay

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    in a first class room at the Savoy Hotel in London. On 12 September 1941 Winston Churchill had a luncheon meeting with him.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 8

    Other prominent members of the CDAAA were

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    Adlai Ewing Stevenson (later Governor of Illinois),

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    General of the Armies of the United States John
    Joseph Black Jack Pershing,

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    Senator Claude Denson Pepper of Florida and

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    the vice-president of the Writers Guild of America Philip Ives Dunne.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 9

    01.00.03. British Security Coordination

    The interventionists gained secret but significant support from the British government, which established the so-called British Security Coordination (BSC), a covert organization,

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    set up in May 1940 in the Rockefeller Center in Manhattan, New York City, by the British Secret Intelligence Service (SIS or MI6,

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    headed by Major General Sir Stewart Graham Menzies, code-named C),

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    and in New York headed by Sir William Samuel Couston Stephenson, a Canadian soldier, airman, businessperson, inventor, master spy and friend of British Prime Minister Winston Churchill.

    This organization, which also headquartered British intelligence operations for the Western Hemisphere, had the approval of President Roosevelt

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    and some assistance from FBI Chief John Edgar Hoover in discrediting leaders of the isolationist America First Committee such a
    s Charles Lindbergh. 1941 the BSC was a huge secret agency of nationwide news manipulation and black propaganda. Pro-British and anti-German stories were planted in American newspapers and broadcast on American radio stations,

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    and simultaneously a campaign of harassment and denigration was set in motion against those organisations perceived to be pro-German or virulently isolationist. Leading isolationists were monitored, targeted and harassed.

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    When Gerald Nye spoke in Boston in September 1941, thousands of handbills were handed out attacking him as an appeaser and Nazi lover.

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    Following a speech by Congressman Hamilton Fish III (born Hamilton Stuyvesant Fish and also known as Hamilton Fish, Jr.), a member of a group set-up by the BSC, the FFF delivered him a card which said, "Der Fuhrer thanks you for your loyalty" and photographs were taken.

    With a little help from the British the American people had mad their decision, but it seems they were still not willing to admit it. A Gallup Poll of 31 January 1941 had the result that 79% of the Americans were opposed to Lindberghs suggestion that England should negotiate a peace, but the poll of 2 February stated that 85% were opposed to entering the war. 7 April the poll stated that 67% voted for helping England even at the risk of becoming involved in the war, but 21 April 1941 79% were opposed to sending any troops to the European Theatre. 22 November 1941 the Gallup question was: It has been suggested that Congress pass a resolution declaring that a state of war exists between the United States and Germany. Would you favor or oppose such a resolution at this time? The result still was: favor 26%, oppose 63% and no opinion 11%.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 10

    01.00.04. Roosevelt and Lord Halifax

    The US public opinion was a problem for Churchill, as from the beginning of the war he knew that until the United States joined the war winning could not be a realistic aspiration. That is one big reason why Churchill wooed, flattered, charmed and strong-armed the United States, especially President Roosevelt. Few lovers expended as much ink and thought as Churchill did in his long personal letters to President Franklin Roosevelt, two, sometimes three times a week (across the years the total number of messages would grow to 1,949).

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    Churchill was quite successful, which can be seen by the example of the reception of the new British Ambassador to the USA, Edward Frederick Lindley Wood, 1st Earl of Halifax.


    Churchill had promoted the former Secretary of Foreign Affairs to Ambassador. Halifax had been the last member of the Cliveden Set in the Churchill War Ministry and the last man linked with appeasement,

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    as Arthur Neville Chamberlain had died,

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    and both Samuel John Gurney Hoare and

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    John Allsebrook Simon had been shelved already.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 11

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Name:	01.00. 3 0 3 HMS Napier Mrs Churchill, Lady Halifax and Lord Halifax boarding 1.jpg
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    On 15 January 1941 Churchill and his wife Clementine brought Lord and Lady Halifax on board of

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    the destroyer HMS (shortly later HMAS) Napier (G97, C/O Captain Stephen Harry Tolson Arliss, RN)

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    to the battleship HMS King George V (41, C/O
    Capt. Wilfrid Rupert Patterson, RN).
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 12

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    There a luncheon was held with the Churchills, Lord and Lady Halifax, Harry Hopkins, the Captain and the C.i.C. Admiral John Cronyn Tovey, 1. Baron Tovey,

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    before the Churchills said farewell and the ship left Scapa Flow for the United States

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    (the transport of Lord Halifax and staff to the USA was codenamed Operation Parcel. Unofficial sources estimated that one way of the trip had cost $21,360 only for fuel).
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  33. #77
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    Default

    Great stuff KH. I am enjoying the history lesson.

  34. #78
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by travisgreyfox View Post
    Great stuff KH. I am enjoying the history lesson.
    Many thanks, travisgreyfox, here comes some more.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 13

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Name:	01.00. 3 0 7 a 7 oath third inauguration.jpg
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    On 24 January 1941, four days after his third inauguration (20 January),

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    departing from tradition President Roosevelt made a special trip and risked ice-covered roads from Washington

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    to the United States Naval Academy Annapolis (C/O
    Superintendent Rear Admiral Wilson Brown, Jr.) to welcome the new British Ambassador personally.

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    He boarded the Presidential Yacht Potomac (AG-25, C/OLCdr. George Aloysius Leahey, Jr.) and sailed out six miles to meet the battleship as it was slowly moving up the fog shrouded Chesapeake Bay,

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    escorted by the US destroyer USS Lansdale (DD-426, C/O
    LCdr. John DeL. (Jack) Connor).
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 14

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Name:	01.00. 3 0 8 a 27 JANUARY 1941 Lord Halifax leaving the ship at Annapolis. Mr and Mrs Butler, Mi.jpg
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    Lord Halifax was piped aboard the Potomac in true naval style, and the yacht then headed slowly back to the docks at Annapolis. After a dinner on board, with Roosevelt,

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    the secretary of the Navy Frank Knox, the British charg daffairs Nevile Montagu Butler with his wife Oonah Rose McNeile

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    and Admiral Harold Rainsford Stark,

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    and disembarking through a crowd of journalists, Lord and Lady Halifax proceeded to Washington together with President Roosevelt in the Presidents car. They were delivered at the door of the British embassy by the Chief Executive on the way to the White House.

    25 January 1941 the Chicago Daily Tribune wrote: The Presidents decision to welcome the new ambassador in person was something brand new in the history of Anglo-American relations.

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    When King George VI and Queen Elizabeth visited the United States two years ago, it was recalled, Mr. Roosevelt went only as far as the Washington railroad station to meet them History does not contain another instance where a President of the United States went out to meet a representative of another country of lesser diplomatic rank. The belief was also expressed that this was the first time a fully armed British man o war has called at these shores since the war of 1812, when Dolley Madison just succeeded in hiding the Presidential silver plate before the visitors arrived at the White House.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 15

    01.00.05. Churchill Flattering

    Churchill flattered like never before in the first two years of the war, greeting every American visitor as if his presence did Britain honour.

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    For instance the American broadcast journalist Edward R. Murrow (born Egbert Roscoe Murrow) was welcomed to his country home Chartwell and often reported on Churchill, especially after the onset of WW2,

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    Murrow`s wife, Janet Huntingdon Brewster-Murrow,

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    became a close friend to Clementine Churchill.

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    In February 1941 the new U.S. ambassador to the UK, John Gilbert Winant, an Interventionist,

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    replaced the former Ambassador Joseph Patrick Kennedy, an Isolationist.

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    Winant came from Washington on board of the Pan American Yankee Clipper to Lisbon and from there with a Royal Dutch airlines aeroplane to London.

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    On Churchills initiative he was met at the plane by Prince George Edward Alexander Edmund, 1st Duke of Kent, and taken by special train to Windsor.

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    There King George VI himself was waiting at the station to drive Winant in the royal car

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    to Windsor Castle, where he spoke with him at lenght. Never in history had a foreign diplomat been received in UK with such ceremony.
    Last edited by kh; 04-12-2017 at 07:57 AM.
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  38. #82
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kh View Post


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    There King George VI himself was waiting at the station to drive Winant in the royal car

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    to Windsor Castle, where he spoke with him at lenght. Never in history had a foreign diplomat been received in UK with such ceremony.
    That is amazing. The kind of note that makes these quizzes so interesting.

  39. #83
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    Default

    I hope you will find several more interesting notes , Neal!
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 16

    When he came to Britain the millionaire and

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Name:	01.00. 3 0 12 1941 w averell harriman defense expeditor in london.jpg
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    U.S. special envoy (with the rank of a minister) William Averell Harriman was enfolded in a similar warm prime ministerial embrace. Harriman arrived by air via Lisbon 15 March 1941 and immediately met Churchill.

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    Within few days after arrival he was ostentatiously flattered with his own office at the Admiralty and he spent almost all his weekends with the Churchill family.

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    Churchill invited him to a Cabinet committee meeting and convoyed him like a prize exhibit on his own travels around the country.

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    Also very often Winant accompanied Churchill on his travels.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 17

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Name:	01.00. 3 0 15 Harriman, Winant, Murrow.jpg
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    Harriman, Winant and Murrow had even closer

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    relations to the Churchills.

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    Winant (married with Constance Rivington Russell) had a secret affair with

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    Churchills second daughter Sarah Millicent Hermione Churchill, who then was married with Victor Oliver von Samek.

    Harriman had an open affair, possibly even encouraged by Churchill, with the wife of Churchills son

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    Randolph Frederick Edward Spencer-Churchill
    , Pamela Beryl Churchill (ne Digby), who later also had an affair with the journalist Edward Murrow,

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    before as Pamela Digby Churchill Hayward she married Harriman in 1971.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 18

    01.00.06. Pearl Harbor

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    On Sunday, 7 December 1941, Winston Churchill was at his family home Chartwell Mansion in Kent, having dinner with both Harriman and Winant.
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 19

    They listened to the radio and heard the newsreader announcing that the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor.

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    KH
    please help me with my Polish, Hungarian and Romanian MN-datasheet, click here:
    http://www.gunboards.com/form.asp

  44. #88
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kh View Post
    I hope you will find several more interesting notes , Neal!
    You were right. I hope lots of folks get to see this thread. The history is great and I love the photo selection. I'm glad this is a long one; I look forward to seeing it every morning.

  45. #89
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 20

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    On 8 December 1941 Franklin Roosevelt addressed a joint session of Congress (and the Nation via radio)and asked for a Declaration of War with Japan. Both the Senate and the House of Representatives approved the war declaration unanimously

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    with the exception of just one vote (by Montana pacifist Congresswoman Jeannette Pickering Rankin)

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    and that day at 16:00 the President signed the resolution in his office. Great Britain also declared war on Japan on 8 December, following the Japanese landing on the coast of Malaya and the bombing of Singapore and Hong Kong on 8 December 1941.

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    That night, Ch
    urchill asked King George VI for permission to leave the UK and travel to the United States and got it when he lunched with the King the following day.
    KH
    please help me with my Polish, Hungarian and Romanian MN-datasheet, click here:
    http://www.gunboards.com/form.asp

  46. #90
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    Default Dieppe Raid, 19 August 1942, Part 21

    01.00.07. Churchills Fears

    Five days after Pearl Harbor on 12 December 1941 Churchill left London and hastened first to Greenock/Scotland and the following day from there to Washington

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    for a Conference codenamed Arcadia (Arcadia or First Washington Conference, 22 December 1941 to 14 January 1942). He was in order to lobby President Roosevelt to fight in Europe and to ensure that the Americans didn't have second thoughts about Germany First, fearing that the impact of Japans attack on Pearl Harbor would be a retreat into an America-comes-first posture. Those concerns had been fueled by a War Department Act that had interrupted the shipment of all war material from American ports, pending a reassessment of the point of allocation.

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    The Senate had rejected a proposal to sell ships and planes to Britain and the attorney-general Francis Beverley Biddle ruled such a sale illegal under the Neutrality Act. Churchill feared this signaled a move to concentrate on the Pacific,

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    supported by the pleas of General Douglas MacArthur (commander of United States Army Forces in the Far East on Corregidor Island)

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    and Admiral Ernest Joseph King (from 30 December 1941 Commander-in-Chief United States Fleet), favouring a Japan First strategy together with several influential supporters and commanders,

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    for instance Admiral Chester William Nimitz (from 17 December 1941
    commander-in-chief United States Pacific Fleet). Many U.S. generals were equally resistant to participating in the war and dubious about the British as prospective allies. Some senior officers even reserved their admiration for the Germans.

    Churchill knew that Anti-British feeling was rife and there was a strong public opinion in the United States for putting the main effort against Japan; a poll at the time showed Americans were opposed to participation in the European conflict by an overwhelming 13 to one. One correspondent to a newspaper in Philadelphia professed to see no difference between 'the oppressor of the Jews and Czechs' - Germany - and 'the oppressor of the Irish and of India' - the United Kingdom.
    KH
    please help me with my Polish, Hungarian and Romanian MN-datasheet, click here:
    http://www.gunboards.com/form.asp

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