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Thread: Siamese Type 38 Arisaka, Bent Bolt, 6.5 x 50mm ???Help

  1. #1
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    Default Siamese Type 38 Arisaka, Bent Bolt, 6.5 x 50mm ???Help

    I have been searching online for a while in regards to a rifle I bought a few years ago and I have been coming up a bit short. I hoping someone here will be able to help me out, and could tell me the age, history, value(should I use it deer hunting or store it )and any other facts about this gun. I have seen many Jap 99's that are close but have seen no Siamese guns(Thia)anywhere out there for sale, pictures or much info on this type of gun.
    What I do know(or think I know)...is that this is a Siamese Jap Type 38 that is used by Thia police. My gun has the Charka emblem and 1793 in Thia numbering on the receiver, bolt, and stock. The stock is also one piece verses Jap 99's that were two piece used by the Japanese. The bolt is bent(manufactured that way). Also, The Siamese took a few thousand 35th year Arisakas but modified them to shoot 8mm or 8x51mm Mauser and carry the Sandscrit marking on them. Could my gun be a 35th year Arisaka? I don't know. If anyone out there can help me I would love to know more on this gun or who I should contact to find out. Check out the pictures below.









  2. #2
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    It looks like you have a 'Thai Police carbine', the bent bolt and cutout wood beneath the handle, and the M1 carbine type sling cutout in the butt are correct for this carbine.

    It should still be in 6.5x50mm Japanese, and was made from a normal T38 rifle, not a T35.

    They are neat little carbines and should make a fine hunting rifle as is.

    They are valuable as a collector item too; so don't modify it; maybe $300+/-.
    Last edited by 03man; 09-10-2007 at 02:45 PM.
    03man - Don Voigt
    Author of "The Japanese T99 Arisaka Rifle" 2010 edition
    Co-author of "The Knee Mortars of Japan 1921-1945" 2011 edition
    Near Charlotte, NC

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    These are considered pretty desirable. good find. Siamese rifles other than type 46's are pretty tough to find.
    I'm broke, and I blame Imperial Japan.

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    Thnaks Guys....do either of you know where I could find more info on them...? I've been banging my head on the wall trying to find the history of the guns and all i can find is a brief note saying the Japaneses sold Arisaka to the Siamese back during WWII...thats about it.
    Thanks for the info....

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    That's about all that is out there. There have been a couple threads on them, maybe Frank will see this and add some info.

    The T38 book will be out in a couple months, that will be a source of info for you.

    These were imported to the US in the 60's if I remember correctly; something in the neighborhood of 7,000 were converted, I don't know how many were imported.
    03man - Don Voigt
    Author of "The Japanese T99 Arisaka Rifle" 2010 edition
    Co-author of "The Knee Mortars of Japan 1921-1945" 2011 edition
    Near Charlotte, NC

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    Well, the one I have has English numbering on the sites, and the few Thia guns I've seen had Siamese(Thia) numbering on the sites. So perhaps this could be one of them? Frank is the guy I was recommended to see from another site...I hope he does have so info he could provide. Anyway, if anyone out there has info, I can provide better pictures to help in identifying the gun.....I thought it would have been easier than its been. Frank.....where are you?

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    Default Siam Police carbine.

    Look at your rear sight closely, if like the other modifications to this configuration the center section was removed and the top welded to the bottom to create a "carbine length" sight.

    There have been a couple of articles in past BANZAIs on these, but Frank Allan is the Siamese rifle guru. If he does not answer this post, as noted above, it should be covered in his new book.

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    He's got the proper rewelded rifle sight. Long rifle sights go up to 24(00) and carbines 20(00)
    I'm broke, and I blame Imperial Japan.

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    Default Thai carbine

    This is the Royal Thai Army version of these carbines. The police version, with a different crest, is designated Type 91 and we believe that this is also the designation of the army version. No records available on them in Thailand. More about these in the upcoming T-38 book.

    Frank

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis C. Allan View Post
    This is the Royal Thai Army version of these carbines. The police version, with a different crest, is designated Type 91 and we believe that this is also the designation of the army version. No records available on them in Thailand. More about these in the upcoming T-38 book.

    Frank
    Glad to see you've joined us on the "new" boards.

    C/

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    Default Siamese Army Cabine

    Here is a long thread on this subject: riceone

    http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=1771

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    That's a neat rifle. It sure looks to be in great shape.

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    Hi Roy,
    glad you finally made it!

    Have you edited your preferences so you can receive PM? Go the the user CP, on the upper left of the page.
    03man - Don Voigt
    Author of "The Japanese T99 Arisaka Rifle" 2010 edition
    Co-author of "The Knee Mortars of Japan 1921-1945" 2011 edition
    Near Charlotte, NC

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    Default Carbine

    Have it fixed to receive messages and emails. Everything fine now. Thanks. riceone.

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    Mr Allen,
    Thanks for the clarifacation.....
    Any ide how many were made, the age of the carbine, value(roughly)?
    ..or am I going to have to buy your book?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riceone View Post
    Here is a long thread on this subject: riceone

    http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=1771
    Thanks for the info....this has given me the best info so far and pictures of the same type of gun as I have. I posted my inquires there as well.
    Thanks for the link

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    Carbine pictured on the MilSurp thread is incorrect, the Siamese bent the bolt handles and stamped the serial number in Siamese on the bolt root. In the early 80s Springfield Sporters had a number of these carbines with regular 38 bolts, handle not bent. Some wee vbent by later owners, but if it does not have the siamese #s it is not original to the carbine.

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    Default New Pictures of the Thai Arisaka

    Here are some more pictures of the gun....for your viewing pleasure



















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    [QUOTE=03man;3562]It looks like you have a 'Thai Police carbine', the bent bolt and cutout wood beneath the handle, and the M1 carbine type sling cutout in the butt are correct for this carbine.

    It should still be in 6.5x50mm Japanese, and was made from a normal T38 rifle, not a T35.

    They are neat little carbines and should make a fine hunting rifle as is.

    They are valuable as a collector item too; so don't modify it; maybe 300 +/-


    QUOTE]


    I do not agree with the estimate...+/- $300

    I recently sold one for $900.00........Very fine example like the one above
    And the only other one I seen for sale DID not sell and the bid ended over $1,000!.....

    I just wanted to make darn sure that the owner of the weapon know's the latest estimate of these guns...there not often encountered and very expensive!


    Enjoy

    BAF

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    Nice looking rifle, when I first saw it, I thought that bubba tried to turn an arisaka into a K98k.
    Active Duty US Army Combat Engineer, Operation Enduring Freedom Veteran 2012-2013.

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    Default Siam/Thai Arisaka....additional pictures of the carbine Type 38

    More pictures of the Thai carbine
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Backside view Sites.jpg   Barrel View.jpg   Bolt and firing pin.jpg   Front Site.jpg   Reciever with Thia  lettering.jpg   Top View Sites.jpg  

    Clip nubering.jpg   Sling release with lettering.jpg   Bolt End With Jap Lettering.jpg   Trigger Guard numbering.jpg   Trigger Numbers.jpg   Upper reciever Side view.jpg  

    Last edited by chubfisherman; 09-19-2007 at 06:26 AM.

  22. #22
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    Thanks for that iyour take on its value.....
    If I do sell it, I want to go into the deal with an approximate value. I, too, haven't seen this gun anywhere....besides on military surplus auction and it was going for $1,400.00.

    I'm definetly going to take better care of it now that I know they're reletively a rare gun.
    Anyway....I'll go with a range of $300- $1,400.00. It'll come down to what the market will bare anyway.....not that I'm selling it.

  23. #23
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    Value

    I'll be very happy to sell mine to anyone for $1400 or even $1000; last one I sold went for $350.

    If people will pay that kind of money, they aren't around here.

    Everytime I give a value estimate, somone is unhappy and someone else disagrees; so no more estimates from me.
    03man - Don Voigt
    Author of "The Japanese T99 Arisaka Rifle" 2010 edition
    Co-author of "The Knee Mortars of Japan 1921-1945" 2011 edition
    Near Charlotte, NC

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    Quote Originally Posted by 03man View Post
    I'll be very happy to sell mine to anyone for $1400 or even $1000; last one I sold went for $350. If people will pay that kind of money, they aren't around here.
    Everytime I give a value estimate, somone is unhappy and someone else disagrees; so no more estimates from me.
    I'd have to say that $1,400 is an aberration. Sounds like an overeager buyer with funds to match.

    C/

  25. #25
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    Default Thai Carbines

    Check the old Hunters Lodge ads from the late 60s if you can find some These were offered back then for not too much money along with some Indonesian M95's that were modified to .303 British Very interesting additions that lots of people didn;t buy...... including me

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    Talking

    This is where I base my $1,400.00 Value from...... check the link all you non believers

    I know that you all can tell me a value of what you think it may be worth......we all have bought guns for very cheap...and over priced..... if I sell it I want to sell it to the guy who wants to buy a overpriced gun...
    http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/RiflesArisaka.html

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 03man View Post
    I'll be very happy to sell mine to anyone for $1400 or even $1000; last one I sold went for $350.

    If people will pay that kind of money, they aren't around here.

    Everytime I give a value estimate, somone is unhappy and someone else disagrees; so no more estimates from me.
    I agree everyone has there limitations and estimate of value---but one also must remember what venue there addressing here, which is on line and not a local gun show . A true measure of "what is it worth" "on line" is to check old auction or listings on line. A true value at your local gun show is "just that", what one would see one on a table for(which $300 for this example may be a LOT)--


    True value from thousands of knowledgeable collectors on line that are looking for these obscure pieces can not be judged by a single gun show sale;offering; or even what one INDIVIDUAL is willing to pay for it(which I think that was what you where trying to say in your $300 estimate).


    The one I sold set on a military gun show table for $65.00 and nobody would buy it!....I finally at the end of the day picked it up "for parts" and only once I got on line did I find out what it really was!.....I am by no means a arisaka collector, so I did not even know this example was a specifically made hard to find example.


    03 man I am not trying to "burst your bubble" just trying to make darn sure the "true" collector value of a specific weapon is known to the on line collector. I also agree at $300 it would be a "must buy" for any collector IF someone is willing to sell there example for that.

    Hope this clears up my difference of opinion.

    BAF

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    Default $1400

    Has no one noticed that this discussion is a bout two different carbines. One is the Thai Carbine fabricated from and existing T38 long rifle and the other is a T38 carbine made by the Japanese for the Siamese and so marked on the receiver. riceone.

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    Talking

    I have.......but I'm the one with the gun....
    If I do trade it I want a fair trade or price.....we'll see what the market will bare.
    It is a great gun in excellent condition.

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    Thanks for posting this information. I have one of these, but didn't know what it was until I read this information. Mine is number 1339 and is in great shape, especially the bore. The rear of the stock has had some work done to it to fix a missing 1" chunk of wood, but otherwise, it looks super. It has three seemingly deliberate white marks on the back of the stock. Don't know what those mean. Bought it for $100 from an estate sale with about 9 other guns.

  31. #31
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    Default Thai Police and RTA "M1" 6,5 carbines:

    The Thais converted a lot of 6,5mm T38 Japanese Rifles to either the "M1" format carbine for Police or Army use, in the early1950s ("Type 91"==1948) and also to a Short Rifle ( unknown type number) in 6,5mm (deactivated) training rifle and .30/06 (active) Training Rifle.

    At the end of WW II, the repatriated Japanese from within Thailand just left their T38s etc with the RTA (Royal Thai Army) and because of the strange "occupation" of Siam (Thailand) by the Japanese, the Thais were not considered "co-belligerants" of the Japanese, and so, in the greater scheme of things, became to all effects "Allies"...Thailand accepted US aid ( in M1 carbines and .30/06 calibre ammo etc...) and started to use the great accumulation of Japanese equipment on hand (Thailand had also bought large quantities of "ex-service" T38s in the 1930s and even durng early WW II.).

    The Long T38 rifles were considered overly clumsy for the short statured Thais, so they were "Cut down"...and in order to give the Police especially a "respectful "look, the cutdowns were crafted in "M1 carbine " style ("Looks can Kill!") as there were not enough US carbines to go around.
    The later "Short rifles" also had a "earsight protected" front sight, very similar to both the M1, and the later shape of the Ruger Mini-14 front sight.

    All these models usually had turned down Bolt handles, and cross pinned Magazine floor plate release buttons (to prevent loss of the Floor plate...a common event in training.
    Occasionally some of the M1 Copies have straight Bolt handles(Police Guns)

    I have fired all three types ( 6,5 carbine, 6,5 short training rifle (re-activated) and .30/06 Short Rifle;;;the 6,5 rifles shoot OK, as they were virtually new guns when converted; the 30/06 had excessive headspace ( head separations became evident after one or two reloads), and were "over-powered" for such a light rifle.

    The Thais soon rlelegated the .30/06 also to training only...and a lot of them (both 6,5 and .30/06) show cracked stocks, from using them for a "leg up" over barricades and walls.
    I picked up 6 of the 6,5s...almost New metal (Japanese 1930s Nagoya Blue) all with cracks in the wrist of the stock, from such activity...

    Regards, Doc AV
    AV Ballistics.

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    That ones a purpose built carbine for siam, I belive.....however the prices in that linked sight are outrageous,your siamese is twice the gun that their buggered up POS is,but I still think $1400 would be reaching tho if the right guys wanted it ,who knows?? the prices at that link were goofy,and the descriptions were just plain BS, the series 10 is a series 8 by the way the series 10 NEVER had that rear sight..and I expect the Jin is a mismatch as well,it should match by serial number..If I could get those kind of prices for guns like that Id sell off my collection tomorrow...now back to your gun,its a far superior example to theirs ( makes theirs look even worse by comparison) lovely gun and Im glad you posted it...i cant decide what to speculate as a price ,because what I think its worth truely is and what im afraid the market will bear are too far apart.Hopefully you would get what such a item deserves pricewise.
    Last edited by davef; 11-23-2007 at 03:32 AM.

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    Regarding the website www.collectiblefirearms.com, everything there is approximately double what the market is bearing. I have kept the link in my favorites for a few years to periodically browse through and nothing there ever seems to move. Maybe they do it that way for insurance reasons. It's very similar to another website called www.myoldrifles.com. These guys can't be seriously interested in selling, because even the occasional newbie who blunders into their website and buys something has to happen too infrequent to pay the bills.
    Last edited by cartoonist; 11-23-2007 at 06:19 AM.
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    I agree about Collectible Firearms. Have had their site around for years but their prices are always outrageous. I don't know where he gets his stuff, but he must figure it to be Gold. Most of it seldom sells. The descriptions are many times taken up with historical chatter rather than the discription of the piece. He puts most of these guns on Guns America, I believe, and really fills up the page with historical info and about a sentence of description.

    I like that description on the Jinsen, bolt matched by assembly number! He also apparently does not know how to disassemble the bolt as there is usually not a description on whether the internals match.
    Last edited by Nagoya10; 11-23-2007 at 10:37 AM.
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  35. #35
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    Friends,

    I do not know enough about these interesting carbines.

    I need your help in distinguishing between these two models.

    Riceone says:"Has no one noticed that this discussion is a bout two different carbines. One is the Thai Carbine fabricated from and existing T38 long rifle and the other is a T38 carbine made by the Japanese for the Siamese and so marked on the receiver."

    DocAV says: "The Thais converted a lot of 6,5mm T38 Japanese Rifles to either the "M1" format carbine for Police or Army use, in the early1950s ("Type 91"==1948) and also to a Short Rifle ( unknown type number) in 6,5mm (deactivated) training rifle and .30/06 (active) Training Rifle."

    "The Long T38 rifles were considered overly clumsy for the short statured Thais, so they were "Cut down"...and in order to give the Police especially a "respectful "look, the cutdowns were crafted in "M1 carbine " style ("Looks can Kill!") as there were not enough US carbines to go around."

    Did the "purpose built" carbines have a stock that was "crafted in 'M1 carbine' style, or is that stock only found on postwar converted Type 38's?

    Q

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    The one advertized for $1400 is a Japanese T38 carbine with Thai marking, it was made for the Siamese, much like Germany mady T98 for other countries. Japan made carbines and T38 rifles for Mexico and they are high dollar also. But the Siamese Police and Army carbines are modifications of Japanese T38 rifles and carbines done by the Siamese or someone else and are much more plentiful and do not bring as much money. In the picture below I bought the top rifle for less than $400 and made the modifications on the second myself. riceone.

    Last edited by Riceone; 11-24-2007 at 11:48 AM.

  37. #37
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    Riceone, the one for $1400 is a mod also. They're both mods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagoya10 View Post
    I agree about Collectible Firearms. Have had their site around for years but their prices are always outrageous. I don't know where he gets his stuff, but he must figure it to be Gold. Most of it seldom sells.
    When I used to attend the Tulsa Shows, I used to speak with him and his wife at their trade tables. They're very nice folks, but I agree with your opinion on his prices.

    C/

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    If that 10th (8th,LOL ) was about $200 less it would be a good buy...mummed matching LD's are a tad uncommon..everytime I see those guns you make Roy, I am utterly awestruck.

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    After corresponding with Fred, its apparent that the $1400 rifle is a Saimese fabrication also.
    Note in picture 10 the cut down rear sight and in picture 4 the split bridge behind the bolt is cut on a backward taper like the police carbine. It will be intresting to see if it sells. I'd like to have it but not that bad. riceone

  41. #41
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    Here's my example - #1139. My dad purchased the gun out of Shotgun News around 1965 for $49 shipped. The web sling and oiler bottle came with the gun. This or a similar sling has been on the gun when in use, as the sling metal has worn a groove in the wood.
    Dan

  42. #42
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    Yes, the M 1 carbine sling would have been used on this carbine, just as you show.
    Nice carbine.
    03man - Don Voigt
    Author of "The Japanese T99 Arisaka Rifle" 2010 edition
    Co-author of "The Knee Mortars of Japan 1921-1945" 2011 edition
    Near Charlotte, NC

  43. #43
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    Rampage,

    Here is a comparison of old and new prices.

    You said, "Here's my example - #1139. My dad purchased the gun out of Shotgun News around 1965 for $49 shipped."

    03 said earlier, "They are valuable as a collector item too; so don't modify it; maybe $300+/-."

    Inflation would make a $49 purchase in 1965 equivalent to a $308 purchase today.

    I found mine in Fargo, ND four years ago for $300.

    Looks like pretty good price stability to me.

    Q

  44. #44
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    This has been a good read..I haven't been here in a while...newborns take up a lot of time. I am not selling my gun, but thanks for the banter and info all. I pent $115.00 on the gun and enjoy shooting it. I dont have the expertise on guns as the rest of you obviously do, but do like to know as much about each gun I do own. Its been hard to find any info on the gun so what you all provided has been great. I've come a long way from thinking it was a Jap 99 originally. Merry Christmas to all.

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