Fake PU sniper at auction.
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Thread: Fake PU sniper at auction.

  1. #1
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    Default Fake PU sniper at auction.

    Someone got burned on this auction which just ended. Hopefully no one here. There is a also a Fake SVT sniper currently still running with a fake Finn Bear mount and added notch made by Izhevsk (which never made snipers).

    Be careful and do your homework before buying valuable firearms.

    http://www.gunbroker.com/item/626108891

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    Quote Originally Posted by msniper19 View Post
    Someone got burned on this auction which just ended. Hopefully no one here. There is a also a Fake SVT sniper currently still running with a fake Finn Bear mount and added notch made by Izhevsk (which never made snipers).

    Be careful and do your homework before buying valuable firearms.

    http://www.gunbroker.com/item/626108891

    Ouch, someone had an extra Grand to burn.
    "The only real power comes out of a long rifle."- Joseph Stalin

  3. #3
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    $60 for shipping a rifle?!?!?!
    Always looking for interesting 7.62x25 Tokarev and 7.63 Mauser cartridges!!!
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    What the heck were you expecting? The pictures were taken with a grey blanket. It was supposed to be three to four times what it was worth. Sheesh!

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    Beware Mooseman. April firsd is coming. Mani fake things can happen.

    Lancebear

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    It's a zoo out there!

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    I have watched those "PU/sniper" auctions on and off over the last few years and about 1/2 were easy to identify as fakes/reproductions. In a lot of cases the pretty reproductions were getting higher bids than the real thing!
    Now I'm going to have to clean that rifle!!

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    The gray blanket does not always work, I just lost money on a very nice matching K98k (pics taken on a gray blanket)..on Funbroker..
    How about a quick tutorial on what makes that PU a stinker, aside from the double what it's worth price thing..

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    This makes me sick. But I always say its buyer beware. I didn't follow this one, but I can see so many red flags on this one. I hope it wasn't anyone on this board that bought it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chasdev View Post
    The gray blanket does not always work, I just lost money on a very nice matching K98k (pics taken on a gray blanket)..on Funbroker..
    How about a quick tutorial on what makes that PU a stinker, aside from the double what it's worth price thing..
    Fake charcoal colored mount that has the look of being cast and is lacking the swirling machine marks on the reverse. . The rough war-time unfinished receiver. Fake scope with flat head screws in the turrets. The cuts in the stock look to be aftermarket. Someone else can chime in on the base -but it is also suspect. The rifles serial number's letter prefix does not appear on the Izhevisk PU serial number list. http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...30-sniper-list
    Now I'm going to have to clean that rifle!!

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    It's one of the Cole's import repros. Shame of it is, they ruined a pretty nice rifle to make it-there are a lot of original matching parts there.







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    mad humpity do dah

    Total hump job. I can just picture the greedy little bastreed grinning as he uses his harbor freight stamp set to fake the fake scope numbers on the side of the barrel!

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    Quote Originally Posted by capnduane View Post
    Total hump job. I can just picture the greedy little bastreed grinning as he uses his harbor freight stamp set to fake the fake scope numbers on the side of the barrel!
    Actually, these Cole's repros were done overseas, likely Ukraine.







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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny c. View Post
    $60 for shipping a rifle?!?!?!
    I just blew $75.17 yesterday shipping one of the old single-sixes (made in 1956) to Ruger to have the transfer bar safety modification installed.

    So, yes, $60 to ship a rifle doesn't surprise me at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny c. View Post
    $60 for shipping a rifle?!?!?!
    Shipping and insurance on a $1700 rifle coast to coast can cost a "no discount", rural to rural shipper that.
    "Saigon Tea, 60 P, you no buy you di di DI!"

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    Yeah, shipping has gone up just in the last month or so on everything. I shipped an auto part last week and it cost me $34 for a 6lb box about 14 inches per side.

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    Most likely modified to accept a scope for people who wanted a shooter. They become fake when they are not represented as what they are.
    Sooner or later an owner will sell believing he has the authentic item, some have no idea what they have.
    So easy to research a firearm on your phone before it comes up for auction. People see a representation and WANT TO BELIEVE it's real. They don't look at the tell tale signs, they refuse to let the firearm talk to them.

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    6 yrs or so ago, Old ZeeBill warned all: repro PU will end up being flogged as real and people will get screwed over big time.

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    The mount and scope are the fastest and easiest ways to tell it has fake/reproduction parts on it. That rifle looks like it has a nice bore and with those "new" optics it might be a great shooter... but not at that price!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alsky View Post
    I have watched those "PU/sniper" auctions on and off over the last few years and about 1/2 were easy to identify as fakes/reproductions. In a lot of cases the pretty reproductions were getting higher bids than the real thing!
    I see that happen with a lot of rifles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    Shipping and insurance on a $1700 rifle coast to coast can cost a "no discount", rural to rural shipper that.
    Wow, even via USPS? I don't think I paid even half that last time I sent a rifle via my Fedex acct.
    Always looking for interesting 7.62x25 Tokarev and 7.63 Mauser cartridges!!!
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    That style scope was an IO contract. Gas spacer is the clue. I think it's a IO copy. How it got those bids I have no idea. I tried to sell a 44 MO triple date and a 43 straight up and couldn't make reserve at 800. I'll never understand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic View Post
    That style scope was an IO contract. Gas spacer is the clue. I think it's a IO copy. How it got those bids I have no idea. I tried to sell a 44 MO triple date and a 43 straight up and couldn't make reserve at 800. I'll never understand.
    I don't understand the auctions either. I think you need to add a lot of B.S. to the auction to reel in the people who are absolutely uninformed.

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    I have sold off a few of my duplicate PU rifles over the years and unfortunately what I heard quite often from some prospective novice buyers ( I made my share of uneducated blunders too ) were questions concerning perfectly matching numbers and with a priority on "stamped" numbers. When the very pretty Faux scoped Mosins with matching stamped serial numbers show up at auction they will almost always sell for more $ than a genuine sniper.

    Shipping Cost - Add the $5.25 for "adult signature" onto the UPS shipping/insurance charges and also their $10.40 surcharge for packages exceeding 48" in length. And zoom the coast to coast the prices easily up to $50 & $60.
    Last edited by Alsky; 03-17-2017 at 04:36 PM.
    Now I'm going to have to clean that rifle!!

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    Nowhere did he use the words, "genuine", "original" "original matching" or anything deceptive. Buyer is stuck with this turkey as he has no legal grounds to weasel out of the deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chasdev View Post
    The gray blanket does not always work, I just lost money on a very nice matching K98k (pics taken on a gray blanket)..on Funbroker..
    How about a quick tutorial on what makes that PU a stinker, aside from the double what it's worth price thing..
    Well if this rifle was a legit matching PU with no import marks then this would be a good price. Since very few exists.

    Many of you are only focusing on the obvious fake things about this rifle. The scope mount, scope and base are obvious fakes. But there are other signs you need to pick up on. What if the new owner were to change the scope and mount out, many would be fooled. And the opposite is true. What is a original rifle had a fake scope and mount? Would you pass?

    Other issues:

    1. Wrong stock. A 1943 rifle should not have a full liner post war stock. It should have a war time half liner stock. The stock cut out is also wrong. True this could have been changed during refurb but doubtful. Also, there is a refurb stamp on the stock with no inspection or roundel. The metal on this rifle is original matching (except the butt plate), so what did they refurb? Why is there a refurb mark? Red flag. Also, why is the butt plate un-numbered? They would have numbered this during a refurb. Another sign the stock was changed.

    2. Bolt is wrong. Now this takes having looked a lot of original bolts. But the bend in this one is wrong and it is too long.

    3. Font on the barrel shank is not war time. Now this would be fine if is was a refurb but if this was the case then we should see signs of a old number being ground down or x'ed out. This rifle shows neither sign. Red flag

    4. The circle C on the receiver is not correct for Izhevsk snipers. Also, can't remember so RyanE or O'Relic will remind me, but there should be no circle K on the left barrel shank on a PU sniper? This is found on regular infantry rifles but not snipers.

    When you start to see one or two things that are obviously faked then you have to ask yourself "what else have they messed with?" All this will help you from getting burned in collecting anything valuable (not just snipers).

    So this rifle, as pointed out, was most likely a nice original factory matching 1943 Izhevsk infantry rifle. Some one changed the stock, cut the stock for a scope mount, add a base and scope mount. Then they stamped the scope serial number on the barrel. In the process they ruined a piece of history. Hope this helps someone in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pointyears View Post
    Nowhere did he use the words, "genuine", "original" "original matching" or anything deceptive. Buyer is stuck with this turkey as he has no legal grounds to weasel out of the deal.
    "WWII Sniper Rifle" might device some people. And then the buyer was foolish and probably sent money to a seller that did not publish a return policy.
    Now I'm going to have to clean that rifle!!

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    with original full length cleaning rod
    Dang, now that I look at it that is a nice cleaning rod...

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    Quote Originally Posted by msniper19 View Post
    Well if this rifle was a legit matching PU with no import marks then this would be a good price. Since very few exists.

    Many of you are only focusing on the obvious fake things about this rifle. The scope mount, scope and base are obvious fakes. But there are other signs you need to pick up on. What if the new owner were to change the scope and mount out, many would be fooled. And the opposite is true. What is a original rifle had a fake scope and mount? Would you pass?

    Other issues:

    1. Wrong stock. A 1943 rifle should not have a full liner post war stock. It should have a war time half liner stock. The stock cut out is also wrong. True this could have been changed during refurb but doubtful. Also, there is a refurb stamp on the stock with no inspection or roundel. The metal on this rifle is original matching (except the butt plate), so what did they refurb? Why is there a refurb mark? Red flag. Also, why is the butt plate un-numbered? They would have numbered this during a refurb. Another sign the stock was changed.

    2. Bolt is wrong. Now this takes having looked a lot of original bolts. But the bend in this one is wrong and it is too long.

    3. Font on the barrel shank is not war time. Now this would be fine if is was a refurb but if this was the case then we should see signs of a old number being ground down or x'ed out. This rifle shows neither sign. Red flag

    4. The circle C on the receiver is not correct for Izhevsk snipers. Also, can't remember so RyanE or O'Relic will remind me, but there should be no circle K on the left barrel shank on a PU sniper? This is found on regular infantry rifles but not snipers.

    When you start to see one or two things that are obviously faked then you have to ask yourself "what else have they messed with?" All this will help you from getting burned in collecting anything valuable (not just snipers).

    So this rifle, as pointed out, was most likely a nice original factory matching 1943 Izhevsk infantry rifle. Some one changed the stock, cut the stock for a scope mount, add a base and scope mount. Then they stamped the scope serial number on the barrel. In the process they ruined a piece of history. Hope this helps someone in the future.
    A small circle c proof is often seen on Izhevsk snipers, but not the bold one as seen here. This one is what I'm used to seeing on Cole's imported repro PUs, but as pointed out by Vic, this example is an IO. Not sure I've seen this on a non-Cole's before.

    Circle K (and barrel acceptance mark as seen on left of barrel shank prior to late '43) isn't seen on Izhevsk snipers.

    All in all, there were a lot of red flags on this one. People need to learn some rudimentary information before dropping a bunch of cash.









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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Relic View Post
    A small circle c proof is often seen on Izhevsk snipers, but not the bold one as seen here. This one is what I'm used to seeing on Cole's imported repro PUs, but as pointed out by Vic, this example is an IO. Not sure I've seen this on a non-Cole's before.

    Circle K (and barrel acceptance mark as seen on left of barrel shank prior to late '43) isn't seen on Izhevsk snipers.

    All in all, there were a lot of red flags on this one. People need to learn some rudimentary information before dropping a bunch of cash.


    Yes, the circle c is a sniper mark. But this one is not correct. That is the point I was trying make. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msniper19 View Post
    Yes, the circle c is a sniper mark. But this one is not correct. That is the point I was trying make. Thanks.
    To clarify for those unfamiliar with the mark being discussed, it's seen here near the arsenal crest. It's almost always faint like this, even on non-refurb rifles that haven't been buffed.









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    I know that I've read on this forum in the past year or two that there is a c mark on the receiver of Izhevsk PU's. Please correct me if I'm wrong and clarify. Thanks

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    On the Izhevsk sniper list post #475 by vadrums, I found another with similar markings but the mount looks correct to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milprileb View Post
    6 yrs or so ago, Old ZeeBill warned all: repro PU will end up being flogged as real and people will get screwed over big time.
    Thank You I rest my case Bill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaws2 View Post
    I know that I've read on this forum in the past year or two that there is a c mark on the receiver of Izhevsk PU's. Please correct me if I'm wrong and clarify. Thanks
    See posts immediately above yours . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty_MT View Post
    On the Izhevsk sniper list post #475 by vadrums, I found another with similar markings but the mount looks correct to me.
    That is a real PU. See posts just above: the actual circle C marking is different from the bold (C) sometimes found on repro PUs.







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    Quote Originally Posted by milprileb View Post
    6 yrs or so ago, Old ZeeBill warned all: repro PU will end up being flogged as real and people will get screwed over big time.
    I guess, people have a lot of money if they cannot do a simple research before spending thousands. I'm looking to buy my first real PU and it took me 10 minutes to understand the most important signs that a mosin is fake and in this case to see it on the spot.

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    If the guy just read this thread a couple of weeks ago he could have saved himself a ton...
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...16729-91-30-pu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex1176 View Post
    I guess, people have a lot of money if they cannot do a simple research before spending thousands. I'm looking to buy my first real PU and it took me 10 minutes to understand the most important signs that a mosin is fake and in this case to see it on the spot.
    Exactly. Guess they never ordered a "giant space monster" (which turned out to be a crappy poster) from the back of a comic book as a kid.







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    I gots to raise the insurance replacement cost on My Tula PU.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic View Post
    That style scope was an IO contract. Gas spacer is the clue. I think it's a IO copy. How it got those bids I have no idea. I tried to sell a 44 MO triple date and a 43 straight up and couldn't make reserve at 800. I'll never understand.
    Reserve auction? Many collectors do not even look at reserve auctions, correctly thinking that most of them want far too much for the gun. Put a high minimum bid if you want, but don't make it a reserve auction.
    Every post I make is made with a request for corrections. I'm here to learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    Reserve auction? Many collectors do not even look at reserve auctions, correctly thinking that most of them want far too much for the gun. Put a high minimum bid if you want, but don't make it a reserve auction.
    I agree. Put a minimum opening bid on it. Don't start with a .01 start with a high reserve. Ranks right with dealers at shows not marking what they are selling with prices. I'm not going to waste my time asking prices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    Reserve auction? Many collectors do not even look at reserve auctions, correctly thinking that most of them want far too much for the gun. Put a high minimum bid if you want, but don't make it a reserve auction.
    Totally agreed. I don't even bid on those kinds of auctions. All it does is waste the bidders' time, and doesn't give the seller one more penny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronbo6 View Post
    I just blew $75.17 yesterday shipping one of the old single-sixes (made in 1956) to Ruger to have the transfer bar safety modification installed.

    So, yes, $60 to ship a rifle doesn't surprise me at all.
    I thought unmodified OM single sixs were worth much more than modified ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by capnduane View Post
    Total hump job. I can just picture the greedy little bastreed grinning as he uses his harbor freight stamp set to fake the fake scope numbers on the side of the barrel!
    too true, I recognized the Harbor "Fright" numeral stamps on the bbl right away. I assume this was a nice 91/30 with an accuracy mark and had all the sniper stuff added

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintovka View Post
    I thought unmodified OM single sixs were worth much more than modified ones.
    They are...but if your single six is worn and out of time like mine?...you can't get original parts to repair, Ruger will install new transfer/safety parts to correct. They will return your "collectable" parts.
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