1915 tula m91 - German? Finn?
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Thread: 1915 tula m91 - German? Finn?

  1. #1

    Default 1915 tula m91 - German? Finn?

    I trust that the photos will turnout OK, but this a 1915 Tula, #73720, repeated on the magazine floor plate, the butt tang and forced marked on the bolt. The Tula rear sight is graduated in Arshin. The underside of the rear tang is marked with the Tula hammer and 1915.
    The bolt is an Izhevsk with four numbers, 4194, 73720 struck out and 66583 with 10873, this latter being repeated on the receiver (r/hand side). However the cocking piece is numbered 76158.
    The butt plate in addition to the number has the Tula hammer, the Russian 'shch' and on the flat 5, B, E.
    The stock has a faint Russian roundel, r/hand and a German capture mark on the l/hand., otherwise it is unmolested.
    The forced marking cries out Finn, but are the German marks kosher?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMGP0108.jpg   IMGP0109.jpg   IMGP0110.jpg   IMGP0111.jpg   IMGP0113.jpg   IMGP0114.jpg  

    IMGP0116.jpg   IMGP0117.jpg   IMGP0106.JPG   IMGP0107.jpg  

  2. #2
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    Not Finn!

    This may be a WWI German capture only. The Germans did re-number bolts.

  3. #3
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    That's a very nice piece! I agree, the Finns were not the only ones renumbering parts. I don't see anything that screams Finn capture, but it does look like a probable Central Powers WWI captured rifle.

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  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin08 View Post
    Not Finn!

    This may be a WWI German capture only. The Germans did re-number bolts.
    Agree with Martin and lt - looks mostly original matching except the bolt and the DR stamp says German capture to me.

    What a neat mostly original piece!

  6. #5
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    Super rifle. I think it is likely a Finn capture or purchase, and somehow never rebuilt. I only say that because the bolt renumbering looks very much like what I've seen on many Finn'd rifles.

    Still, all original minus the bolt is a rare find.
    Nothing worthwhile ever comes easily.

  7. #6
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    The above collectors know way more than I do, so I will just say "real nice". Congrats on a super rifle. Regards, John

  8. #7
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    Boy, that's a really nice M91. Great character, love the patina. Congrats on your rifle.

  9. #8
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    Oh very nice! That's just a great piece wow! Nice Deutches Reich stamp. It's nice to see a PTG rifle that has a big eagle on it like that, that hasn't been removed from going through the Balkans. Looks like an Izhevsk marked connecting bar on the bolt. But for it to still have what look like matching parts on it, looks very nice. There is a 5 stamped on the flat of the butt plate that goes against your shoulder. Maybe another mark that's hard to see? Hopefully JPS or someone else knowledgeable may be able to come by sometime and give us some info on the butt plate mark. I'm not sure if just a single number may signify where it went through a German arsenal at. Strange 73720 was struck thru on the bolt too. But a fantastic example! Very nice! The angle of the pic at the crown and muzzle, looks pretty nice still. How does a bullet test score?
    MOSIN PRIME!

    Always looking for interesting Imperial Mosins! Antique M91s, 91/38s and Imperial dated Nagant revolvers. PM me if you may have one you may be looking to trade/sell.

  10. #9

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    It does seem unusual that if it came into the hands of the Finns, they would force mark the original number on a replacement bolt, so it did occur that it well may have been done in the field by the Russians, to keep the piece numbered correctly throughout. But that is a bit too speculative, perhaps.
    There is the sequence 5, B, E on the butt plate, in descending order. I would just like to nail down what it is, if possible, that's why the question was put.

  11. #10
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    Didn't the Germans remember on the flat? Just st happens the Finns ended up with a bunch of those bolts

  12. #11
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    Yes, the Germans often numbered on the flat of the bolt. It appears that they did once renumber a mismatched bolt both on the flat and right side of the receiver. An earlier number which matched the barrel was also applied (perhaps by Russians?) and then canceled.

    On the buttplate flat numbers, take a good pic and post on the WWI and/or German Militaria forums. You should get some good info on the unit marks.

    http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdis...taria-And-Arms

    http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdis...ilitaria-Forum

  13. #12
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    Thanks for posting the links Martin08. Just spent a couple hours on the first one. Made me go look at a 1886 Kropatchek rifle I have never really looked at and a Gew88s that I got in 1977 from back of gun magazine. Fascinating forum I have never visited. For those who haven't I recommend it as it hits on many of the recent threads about identifying the travels of our M91s, along with some great history to help. Feel rather dumb that I haven't gone there sooner. So much of that history is intertwined with what happened very shortly before Finnish liberation and to the rifles we collect so passionately. Regards, John.
    Last edited by Handsome Devil; 03-21-2017 at 11:09 AM.

  14. #13

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    To complete the illustrations, here is the butt plate showing the 5, B, and E.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMGP0120.jpg  

  15. #14

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    JPS to the rescue, see 'JPS WWI Militaria and Arms'
    5= Koblenz Depot, B and E being inspectors marks. Happy now, thanks to all for your assistance.

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