PGO (pistol grip only) query
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Thread: PGO (pistol grip only) query

  1. #1
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    Default PGO (pistol grip only) query

    OK, so Mossberg has a non-shotgun "firearm" that is 26 1/2-in. long even though it has a 14-in. barrel, so that it is ostensibly not subject to the NFA. The "OAL" trumps the barrel length... Put a shoulder stock on it, and then you'd be in violation of the NFA. I get it.

    Here's what I do not get:

    Why no 20-gauge?
    The Remington Model 17 "whipit" Special Police gun had a 15.1-in. barrel and a pistol grip for an (illegal-without-NFA-tax-stamp-too-short) OAL of 25.2'in.
    The Remington Model 31 RX had the same attributes, a 14.5-in. barrel, 20-ga. five-shot with about 25.2-in. in length and about 4.5lbs. weight.

    So if the grip was made longer, i.e. the "Raptor TM" or better yet "EXtreme Raptor TM" so that these were 26-1/2" long overall, there'd be a non-shotgun "firearm" in 20 gauge instead of 12... Now setting aside the very, very limited utility of such a PGO type "firearm" and the difficulty in actually using them effectively, absent very, very many hours of training, what's to stop anyone picking up the phone, calling up a manufacturer and saying "whoah there... Don't put a stock on that there receiver just yet, and put a 14.5 or 15-in. barrel and an "extremely Tactikewl raging raptor grip" on it and hey presto! Be sure to include the ATFE letter but kindly ship to my FFL...?

    Is there some sort of odd NFA restriction on 20 or 28 gauge "firearms" 26.5-in. OAL that doesn't apply to 12-ga.??
    Alle Kunst ist umsonst, Wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

  2. #2
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    I think the receiver has to be designated as a pistol grip only, or "other" during the manufacturing process for one thing, and most manufacturers don't want to mess with the ATFE just to prove a point, especially when you're talking about producing something with such limited marketability.

    I am not a legal expert. I don't even play one on TV. This is just my own interpretation of the law and your mileage may vary.

    You can't legally convert a regular shotgun to less than the required overall length, and you can't use a barrel less than 18 inches. You can't convert a regular shotgun into an AOW (any other weapon) or PGO (pistol grip only) just by adding a 14 inch barrel and pistol grip, or go back and forth between the two. Such designation must come from the factory, but if it did come from the factory designated as an AOW and it is kept that way, then it is legal except where prohibited by local laws.

    The moment you change the stock or barrel length you may be changing the legal designation of the firearm. For example, a short barreled, pistol gripped, shotgunish sort of firearm might be designated as an AOW by the factory, but as soon as you mount a regular shoulder stock on that AOW receiver then you might, by definition, be converting your legal AOW into a regulated "Destructive device" and you're not allowed to do that without the right licenses and tax stamps. Anyway, that's my take on the issue, but I'm just another idiot on the internet.
    Regards, Alan K.
    Available for Cabinet level positions, consultation on matters of foreign policy, weddings and bar-mitzvahs. Will work for gold or guns.

  3. #3
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    BTW, the birds head grip on the Mossberg cannot be lumped in with the standard pistol grips.
    I had one made by Speedfeed on my 18" Mossberg for a while...it was very easy to shoot out to 25yds.

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  5. #4
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    Thanks. Good to know. Mossberg reps told me there are no plans to do the "shock wave" in 20-ga, probably because the 590 is only in 12-ga. The regular 20-ga. with pistol grip and 18-1/2" barrel is about the same length over all.

    I may not have the time to practice enough to get proficient with the PGO, although it does exert a certain appeal.
    Alle Kunst ist umsonst, Wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

  6. #5
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    Back about 1982 or so when the Miami-Dade County Police first formed their SRT teams they always had a couple of short stocked shotguns for the entry squad. Not as nicely formed as the bird's head grip on the Mossberg, but basically the standard stock cut off a few inches behind the grip so it would have a similar feel as the Mossberg's bird's head. I always found this configuration more comfortable than just a pistol grip as it seemed to balance better and you had more directional control when sweeping the muzzle with those few inches of remaining stock pressed against your wrist or pulled in close against your side. Never really cared for pistol gripped shotguns though.
    Regards, Alan K.
    Available for Cabinet level positions, consultation on matters of foreign policy, weddings and bar-mitzvahs. Will work for gold or guns.

  7. #6
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    Haven't been to Miami in a while... last time I was there the PD had G36 rifles from H und K, Gmbh.

    I'll just stick to my SxS coach gun I guess.

    Those SRT guns you'd described were 12-ga, yes? My understanding is that the late NYPD "stake-out" squad had some double-barrel 12-ga shotguns and whatnot.
    Alle Kunst ist umsonst, Wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

  8. #7
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    They were standard issue, 12ga, 870s that just had the stocks shortened.
    Regards, Alan K.
    Available for Cabinet level positions, consultation on matters of foreign policy, weddings and bar-mitzvahs. Will work for gold or guns.

  9. #8
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    Forgotten Weapons and InRangeTV had some interesting things to say about it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmC3NlfUd-U

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYjThckYqBQ


    Ye Olde Gun Porn (Blog): http://yeoldegunporn.tumblr.com

    Historical Firearms Collectors of Austin: https://www.meetup.com/Weapons-and-h...rds-of-Austin/

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