Total Production numbers of the Mle 1878-84 and the Mle 1885 Kropatschek Rifles???
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Thread: Total Production numbers of the Mle 1878-84 and the Mle 1885 Kropatschek Rifles???

  1. #1
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    Default Total Production numbers of the Mle 1878-84 and the Mle 1885 Kropatschek Rifles???

    Hello Gents,

    Still without my library, however there is finally light at the end of the tunnel! In the interim however, I'm still hamstrung when it comes to details regarding specific models and need to find the total production numbers for both the Mle 1878-84 and the Mle 1885.

    Would someone please see if you have a reliable source(s) detailing the total number of the production of each of these models???

    Thank you in advance for your help with this. Three more months and everything will be out of storage and accessable!!!!

    ;>)


    Warmest regards,

    JPS
    Last edited by JPS; 03-20-2017 at 08:04 PM.

  2. #2
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    Model 1878 : 25 000 (as far as we know, all made in 1879)
    Model 1884 : 85 000 (MAS : 50 830, MAC : more or less 35 000, orders known for 33 000, made from 1884 to 1886)
    Model 1885 (comprising about 2/3 of 1874-85) : probably 52 000 to more than 67 000.
    MAC : may be 2 500 "prototypes" + may be 4 000 model 1885 and 8 000 model 1874-85
    MAS : 6 500 model 1885 and 11 403 model 1874-85
    MAT : 22 500 to 37 500 and for what we know 2/3 of modified 1874 rifles (e.g. : orders for 1886 : 5 000/10 000).
    Made in 1885, 1886 and 1887.
    Last edited by Alamas; 03-20-2017 at 02:52 PM.

  3. #3
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    Why associate the name Mannlicher with these rifles?
    The model 1878 can be linked with the name of "Kropatschek" as designer of the repetition system, to the Gras Mle 1874 bolt /receiver system and finally its manufacturer "de Werndl" of Steyr.

    The Mle 1884 and 1885 are French built on a design improved on the Mle 1878.

    Mannlicher association with De Werndl started in 1886.

    kelt
    Last edited by kelt; 03-20-2017 at 07:55 PM.

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  5. #4
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    Hello Gents,

    First of all, thank you for the info Alamas. It's greatly appreciated. I can always count on you Gents here on the French Forum to provide reliable information, particularly with my library still in storage!

    Kelt!

    My bad Bud! LOL!

    I am in need of production figures regarding the M1885 Mannlicher as well. I posted the thread at the following link this morning on the Mannlicher Forum.

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...885-Mannlicher

    Because I was busy editing, rather than write out a whole new request, I copied and pasted the text from the Mannlicher thread to this one. In my rush to get back to editing, when I tweaked the text here I missed the "Mannlicher" that is mentioned in the title here on the French Forum. It was a mistake made in haste, NOT because I can't tell a Kropatschek from a Mannlicher!

    I've removed the "offending term" and have spent more time on this response then I spent on the original post. Most important of all is the fact that I have correct information for both questions from knowledgeable members both here and there.

    ;>)

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

  6. #5
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    JPS,

    I always found irritating to see on (mostly) US publications the Berthier rifle system being dubbed as Mannlicher Berthier and your title pushed my button and made me jump on the keyboard!

    The Berthier magazine with its "en bloc" clip design is contemporary to the Mannlicher's but somewhat different, the clip is reversible and the feeding system is more elegant mechanically.

  7. #6
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    Hi kelt,

    No problem my Friend! I simply missed removing "Mannlicher" from the orginal title of the info request on the other Forum.

    As for the Berthier, it is most definitely NOT a "Mannlicher" Berthier. It's an original design that utilized improved "Mannlicher" en bloc clips to load the weapon.

    Always a pleasure!

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

  8. #7
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    Great info on the Kropatschek.

    Anyone for "Mannlicher-Garand?" Ha!
    Alle Kunst ist umsonst, Wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

  9. #8
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    Hello Gents,

    One more piece of info if you would all be so kind???

    When first introduced, does anyone have a number for the initial order or target production figure for the Mle 1886 Lebel? I know that by the time production was stopped after WWI over 3 million had been produced. What I'm looking for is the quantity required to completely arm the peace time army when the Lebel was introduced.

    Thank you for any help you Gents can provide.

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

  10. #9
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    The only order we know for sure is 30 000 for april, 1st, 1887.
    But you make a confusion : more than 3 millions have been produced in 1904, when the production of this model has been stopped. So, we can suppose that the required quantity has been reached.
    According to General Bacquet, only 2 880 000 where still in the hands of the Army in 1914 (about 10 % losses in 27 years).
    MAT was still doing spare parts and a very limited production of Lebels for the civil market.
    MAC and MAS were doing something completely different (Berthiers, artillery canons and accessories).
    Due to the astonishing losses of the beginning of the war, MAT had to restart the production of the Lebel, as a stop gap to wait the model 1907-15. Even after this new model was produced in quantities, the Lebel was not stopped before, may be, the last year of the war. 217 000 more Lebels have been produced, for a total of probably more than 3.3 millions.

  11. #10
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    I got this number ...
    There were approximately @ 3,150,000 of these rifles made from May 1, 1887 to December 1, 1904, of which approximately 1,000,000 were made by MA C, 1,600,000 made by MA S and 550,000 made by MA T. During the war 217,000 were made which would bring the total to 3,367,000. I also understood that 300,000 spare parts were bieng held in reserve in 1914 for any losses in the field and that it was some of these that MA T used to make 217,000 during the war with.
    Alamas is correct ... the only order we know about is the initial order of 30,000 of April 1st of 1887, we have tried to piece together the numbers made during those years based upon examples from collectors and such.

    Patrick
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 03-24-2017 at 11:15 AM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  12. #11
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    Thank you Alamas and Patrick!

    That info provides exactly what I was looking for. Your help has been greatly appreciated with this information.

    Always a pleasure Gents! Thank you.

    Warmest regards,

    John

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