Lithgow No1 MkIII* HT Sniper Survey.

[Son]

This survey had been going for a couple of years in it's original form on the old Gunboards site. The posting had 11,225 hits up untill the site was transfered. I had been gathering the data provided on these rifles and between this forum and other contacts I have information on over 100 rifles. To contributors I offer to answer any questions I can in return for their HT's details. The only things I won't tell are exact locations or any personal details (.....if these things become known to me during the process) To anybody else who so wish, please feel free to comment or ask about stuff you'd like to see. It's all about expanding everyone's knowledge.

Anyway, here's the list of questions. And a few of the later answers from before. If you are unsure about anything, just ask. I check the forum daily. Thankyou.

1)Rifle serial number?
2)Receiver manufacturer?
3)Receiver year stamp?
4)Butt date stamp? (none?)
5)Butt size (S, N, L) "H" stamp?
6)Barrel date stamp?
7)Engraved Scope serial number?
8)Scope brass eyepiece ring stamped number?
9)Mount ring stamped number?
10)Mount base stamped number
11)Mount type (high or low)?
12)Nosecap ears modified for sight adjustment?
13)Kingscrew swivel fitted?
14)Preservative paint under woodwork?
15)Cheekpiece fitted to butt?
16)Comments? (anything you think needs a mention eg extra markings etc...)



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JollyGreenSlugg
Gunboards Super Premium Member
Australia
453 Posts
Posted - 04/04/2006 : 08:26:19 AM


Hi folks,

I thought I might add my two bob's worth...

1. Serial number - 93210
2. Action make - Lithgow
3. Action date - 1917
4. Scope number - 274
5. Mount number - None visible
6. Ring number - 274
7. Date marking on butt - None, wood was replaced or sanded/polished
8. High or Low mount - High
9. Preservative paint or not - None seen
10. Cheekpiece - None
11. triggerguard king screw - swivel type
12. Nosecap - appears to be a replacement (mismatch), no holes
13. Barrel date - Replacement MA62
14. Butt length - appears to be normal
15. rubber eyepiece - None

Cheers,
Matt


Proud custodian of a 1889 Lee-Metford MkI*, a 1912 BSA No1 MkIII (with volley sights), a 1915 Lithgow No1 MkIII H (with volley sights), a 1917 Lithgow No1 MkIII HT, a 1917 BSA No1 MkIII*, a 1920 Siamese Contract No1 MkIII*, a 1941 Lithgow No1 MkIII*, a Maltby No4 Mk1, a 1945 No5 and a 1953 Fazakerley No4 Mk2. You can never have too many Lee-Enfields! I have an 1896 Long Lee I, a P14, a 1940 Lithgow No1 MkIII, a 1943 Lithgow No1 MkIII* and a 1942 Longbranch No4 Mk1* on the way. I'm still looking for a pre-SMLE carbine, an SMLE MkI, a 50s Lithgow and an 80s Ishapore though! One can dream!

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Son
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
Australia
1167 Posts
Posted - 04/04/2006 : 10:45:55 AM

Go Matt!!!!!!

I had just looked at your pics etc on the LE forum and was going to PM you the updated survey questions. No matter, mate... I'll log your info into my spreadsheet from this (Vulch put the original set of Q's up here ages ago, I've been recording input and answering owner questions ever since) and send you some info on where to look for other stuff on the rifle.

I'll bet you don't sleep tonight!

Cheers, Brad.

YGT>
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angus9132
Gunboards Member
Australia
13 Posts
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 7:44:03 PM

G'day all
I have in my collection a scope and mounts as well as bases . The bases and the mounts have the same serial numbers , 1952 . The scope is not numbered . They are all in apear unissued and are in brand new condition. Does anyone have any info on the serial no's ??
Regards
Angus9132

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dogface
Gunboards Member
USA
12 Posts
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 10:17:02 PM


[quote]Originally posted by angus9132

G'day all
I have in my collection a scope and mounts as well as bases . The bases and the mounts have the same serial numbers , 1952 . The scope is not numbered . They are all in apear unissued and are in brand new condition. Does anyone have any info on the serial no's ??
Regards
Angus9132

I don't know about the serial numbers, but your scope would look good enough on an H.T. I have that needs one. Are you willing to part with it? I would be willing to part with the H.T., but it is nearly impossible to get one into or out of Australia. It would be much easier to ship the scope to the States, I think? What is your opinion?

Download Attachment:
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Son
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
Australia
1167 Posts
Posted - 04/30/2006 : 02:12:30 AM


quote:
Originally posted by angus9132

G'day all
I have in my collection a scope and mounts as well as bases . The bases and the mounts have the same serial numbers , 1952 . The scope is not numbered . They are all in apear unissued and are in brand new condition. Does anyone have any info on the serial no's ??
Regards
Angus9132


G'day Angus, I'll e-mail you about the serial numbers, info directly from my research.
Cheers, Brad.

Dogface, even though your rifle was a highmount, and the set Angus has would almost certainly be a lowmount, it would probably be impossible to find a scope with high mounts on it short of someone stripping out another rifle. So any Aussie Patt 18 scope with mounts on it is better than none, mate. I've got you down as needing one, any I see I'll give you a heads-up about.

YGT>

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OzzyDavid
Gunboards Member
Australia
34 Posts
Posted - 07/03/2006 : 11:05:59 AM

Just a question.. What happened to all the rifles that may have been partly assembled when the contract was cut short? the scope i have doesnt have any numbers on it. the rifle i have is # 74800 1917 no1 mk3 maade at Lithgow it is fitted with a heavy barrel with sold out of service marks i cant see the date on it as the front base covers it. There doesnt seem to be a serial no on the barrel. The rifle has been used as a target rifle at some time. The scope was given to me about 15 years ago.. I was once told by someone well known in the enfield world that some sniper rifles could have been made up in unit workshops and no records would have been kept.Is it possible that rifles were made up of the spare parts left over at Lithgow and sold out of service to the public after the war as made up rifles?And if so would they be considered as collector pieces? I cant even remember how i came by the rifle with the bases attached.

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Son
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
Australia
1167 Posts
Posted - 07/04/2006 : 10:28:12 AM

G'day OzzyDavid and welcome to what is probably the most helpfull and friendly forums on the net. I'm also in NSW and a Lee Enfield collector, mostly hang out on the Lee Enfield Forum, British Gun Pub and the .22 forum as well as here for the purpose of gathering info and helping answer any questions I can from my research into Lithgow HT's.

Now, as for your question.... The order of assembly meant that rifles set aside for conversion were brought into the workshop as completed ones went out. So when the contract was cancelled the remaining rifles would have either been left in factory storage as standard rifles or returned to Military stores. Because only the serial numbers of completed rifles were recorded, there is no way of knowing if any other particular rifle had been earmarked as a candidate for conversion.

There is a complete list of the HT serial numbers in Ian Skennerton's book "The Lee Enfield Story". From this list obtained from the Lithgow Small Arms Museum and information painstakingly researched by Mr Skennerton in his books a lot can be found out. I have gone on a different track by recording some specific details from rifles I've either inspected personally or info sent to me by owners all over the world. From this some conclusions can be made about the manufacturing process and used to confirm to a degree the authenticity of an individual rifle.

There would not have been any big amount of "partially completed" rifles, and all the parts used were either already on the rifle and gauged as ok to keep or from stores of new made parts, (all of which were standard bits except the barrel and scope set). The only exception to this was the scope and mount sets. The whole amount of 2500 sets were completed before the cancellation of the rifle, and as only 1613 were used, there would have been 888 sets not used. Some of these were used later for replacements during repairs/ refurbishment (documented in the L.E.S) and quite a few have turned up over the years and ended up on scopeless rifles (as yours has) or on "repro" rifles made up in civilian hands. One of the reasons for my research is to help buyers identify the "fakes" that are out there.

One factor is the numbers stamped on the bases on the rifle and ring mounts on the scope, as well as on almost every part of the scope itself. More than half of the rifles I have info on (over 50) either have miss-matched scopes (rifle serial number engraved on the scope tube not matching number on rifle), or no number on the scope (one of the unused left-over scopes)

If you could check the numbers on the front of the bases (see the pic on page 1 of this thread posted 31/3/06) and the numbers on the rings as well as on the brass ring at the eyepiece end of the scope (very small) and confirm the rifle serial number I'll be able to tell you more about it.

If you say it's alright I'll email you the updated question list for my survey. All info on specific rifles and their locations/ owners is kept confidential, but I will answer any other questions contributers to the survey have.

We can get onto the collector value of "built-up" or "repro" rifles later too.

Cheers,
Brad.

YGT>
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superbee
Gunboards Member
Canada
76 Posts
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 3:15:39 PM


Hi.I like to add mine to the list.

1- serial#28526
2- lithgow
3- 1915
4- scope # erased
5- mount # 1423
6- ring # 1464 same # on brass ring
7- date on butt 08/45
8- low mount
9- no paint
10- no cheek piece
11- standard king screw
12- has adjustment windows
13-barrel date 1956 barrel replaced??Forend wood is also dated 1956.
14-normal butt
15-no rubber eye piece

scope case has # 59526 written in ink

Glad to finally be in the HT club!

Cheers,Eric
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Son
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
Australia
1167 Posts
Posted - 12/24/2006 : 01:54:06 AM

Welcome aboard, Eric!
Thanks for contributing to the survey. As for all contributors, if there is any questions you might have about these rifles, ask away. I have similar details on over 60 seperate rifles from all over the planet. The only info I won't give out is owner's and rifles exact locations (if known).

I'll collate your rifle's details into my spreadsheet and check the numbers against others and dates etc. May be able to fill in a bit of info on it for you then.

Cheers,
Brad.

YGT>
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Terry Willson
Gunboards Member
54 Posts
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 7:27:50 PM

Better late than Never - imported to South africa about 25 yeares ago.

1) 35971
2)Lithgow
3)1915
4)46535 (Electric Pencil)
5)Nil
6)1088
7)Nil
8)High
9)No
10)Yes - Close
11)Standard
12)Windows - one larger than other
13)???? (Not stripping)
14)Normal (Slazenger)
15)No

Regards and greetings from South Africa,

Terry Willson

Terry W
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Son
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
Australia
1167 Posts
Posted - 03/29/2007 : 08:14:37 AM

Hello, Terry.
Welcome aboard the Gunboards group of forums. If Lee Enfield rifles are of interest to you, there is a very good bunch of people on the Lee Enfield forum. I guess you have an interest in your Lithgow sniper! First one I've noted from South Africa. So far I have gathered details on over 80 rifles, and to people who contribute details as you have, I will answer any questions I can about these rifles, except their exact locations or any info on the owners. That stuff (if known) remains confidential.

One other thing, since Vulch initially set this list of questions, I had refined it a little further and provided a picture to help owners find the markings on the scope, mount rings and mount bases.
Here is the pic, could you please double check your rifle for numbers.

Thanks again for the details, is there anything I can do for you?

Cheers from Australia

Brad (Son)

YGT>
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enfield_addict
Gunboards Member
USA
18 Posts
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 02:25:12 AM

fun

It's not MY fault for becoming an Enfield Addict!

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Terry Willson
Gunboards Member
54 Posts
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 4:17:58 PM


Dear Brad,

Thanks for your reply. I note your arrowed picture, but the only indicated marking that I can find is that minute one on the brass rim of the eyepiece. I originally exchanged the rifle from an Australian collector in 1973.

I have a great interest in the Lee Metford/Enfield range and althogether have about 48 in my collection including 5 sniping rifles (Martin, Periscopic Prism scoped No.1 Mk IIIs, the Lithgow, No4 Mk 1(T) and an L42A1.

My e-mail address is terry.willson@telkomsa.net (PLEASE note the double "l" in Willson)and I'd be very happy to correspond individually with others having similar interests. In addittion to my Lees I have a fairly compelte range of the British military muzzle loaders, Sniders and Martinis in both .450 and .303 calibre. I'm particularly interested in the weapons of the Natal Volunteers as used in the Zulu and Boer Wars.
Regards,
Terry



Terry W
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DEMO
Starting Member
Australia
1 Posts
Posted - 07/09/2007 : 07:51:26 AM
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Hi all
Here is my sniper details.

Serial no 37349
Lithgow action
1916
Matching scope
Mount no 1288
Ring no 1819(matching brass ring)
Blank butt
Low mount
No paint
No cheekpiece
Standard trigger screw
Nosecap windows
Barrel 10/54(FTR'D)
Butt length ?
No rubber eye piece

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Son
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
Australia
1167 Posts
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 7:36:03 PM


G'day DEMO and welcome to the forums. I've been gathering this data for a couple of years now, so if there is any questions you would like answered about these rifles I'll do my best to help you out. When I get your answers input into my spreadsheets, I may have another question or two and possibly some info straight off about your rifle. If Lee Enfields are of interest to you, go to forum 44 at the link below. Lots of friendly people, quite a few of us aussies as well.
Cheers, Son. (NSW)

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdis...aysprune=&f=55

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YGT>

....and here's one of the pictures that didn't transfer with the messages. The marking locations on the scope and mounts.

[Son]

Vic, any chance of making this survey a sticky again, either here or at the Lee Enfield forum?

For entertainment value, here's a pic that was taken recently at a gathering of Lee Enfield addicts at the Lithgow S.A.F. range. As some here would appreciate, not often you see four of these rifles in the one place.
The picture shows clearly the difference in height of the two mount set-ups. There were 1132 "High Mount" rifles completed first from 10th November, 1944 to 3rd July, 1945. Then 480 "Low Mount" rifles from 2rd July, 1945 to 15th Feb 1946 were finished when the D^D cancelled the contract at 1612 total, well short of the 2500 originally ordered.

[FlightRN]

Greetings All,
I purchased this rifle (sn#70657) and submitted my paperwork on 1 Sept 2001. It took 8-9 months to receive it from Australia but I'm glad I did it. It is one of my jewels of the collection. The rifle is matching and complete. I haven't had time between all the deployments of the past years to fire it and am hoping to one day to see what she can do.

The chest is not an original item but I had a friend build it for me. The transit chest needed to be "slightly" longer in order to fit the No1 Mk III. She just looked "naked" without one and I had it marked with what I thought would be appropriate nomenclature.

I submitted my information shortly after the original survey was started in '03 (?) If you don't have my previous information, please let me know.

Best Regards,
Michael

[Son]

Thanks for re-aquainting us with your rifle. Yes, I have the info on yours in the survey already, and also kept a copy of your pic of it back then. One of the nicest examples of the rifle anywhere! You really have to get out and fire it. Photograph the day and let us all know how it goes.
Remember, if there's any info I can help you with, just ask.

Cheers
Brad (Son)

[Mauser308]

1. 56382
2. Lithgow
3. 1916
4. none (not original butt, but the one that came with rifle was not original either!!)
5. Normal with no H, although the butt that came on the rifle had a 1/2" H crudely carved.
6. 1-'44
7. 56382
8. 1009
9. 1009
10. 1009 front and back
11. High
12. Yes (nosecap that came with rifle not matching/modified, but opened for range work...)
13. No (original sling swivel type present, early LSA trigger guard matches rifle)
14. No
15. Yes (now)
16. Rifle foreend (not matching) and nosecap had been floated for range work, have replaced with non-matching but correct stamped 'H' and 'R' stamped foreend, nosecap replaced with old stock 'A-in-star' un-numbered nosecap, butt replaced with Lithgow SLAZ '45 HT butt with cheekpiece. Rifle now in excellent condition, scope is structually O.K. but with lens seperation. When I get around to it I will get it rebuilt... You forgot to ask if anyone has the eyepiece, case or lens covers. I have the case and lens covers, but would really like two eyepieces!

HTH

[Son]

The rubber eyepiece just doesn't seem to exist. I've never struck anybody that has actually seen one, let alone have an original. As far as scope cases and lens caps go, they seem to be a bit of a lottery. With the original survey Vulch put together they weren't noted but quite a few respondants mentioned them, either as having or looking for. Some cases have had thier scope number written on them- I even had a fellow willing to trade his miss-matched case to the bloke who had the matching scope, but the knucklehead had packed the poops over finding out one of his rifles was a fake and never responded to my messages. Oh well, you just can't help some people.....

Vulch was working on a way to re-pro the rubber eyepiece.... if you spot a posting from him, ask if he ever did any more about them.

Cheers,
Brad. (Son)

[Son]

Just took a pic of two rifles with a Scout Regiment Telescope on a tripod. Thought I'd post it here. The telescopes were issued here in Aust. with these and subsequent sniper rifles up untill the early 90's I understand.

[Simon]

Brad,

Now I think about it I'm certain the HT rifle in the weapons collection at Warminster has an original, although very perished rubber eye cup on it. it maybe worth mentioning it to Pete Laidler over on the Jouster board, if it's still with it he may be able to supply photo's and dimensions.

Cheers,
Simon.

[Son]

Thanks for the tip, Simon. I'd all but given up ever finding even just a decent picture to look at. The best so far is this blown up pic from Korea....

[bad czech]

Here are the details of my rifle.

Serial number - 75341
2. Action make - Lithgow
3. Action date - 1917
4. Scope number - 1255
5. Mount (bases) number - 834 and 66 both front and rear
6. Scope raer ring number - 1255, no # on front ring
7. Date marking on butt - 12/44, 'H' stamped (actually large H stamped over a small H)
8. Low mount
9. Preservative paint or not - None seen
10. Cheekpiece - None
11. triggerguard king screw - none
12. Nosecap - modified sn 75341
13. Barrel date - n/k
14. Butt length - long
15. no cheek piece
16. scope engraved, 'Rifle No 75341'

Right side of action, stamped 'FTR'
Left side of action ring stamped 'MA/54'

Cheers,

Joe

[LongLee]

If I am posting this on the wrong forum, please let me know where to post it.

I'm writing the biography of my Aussie ancestor who trained at Ballarat in 1916. The recruits were issued with rifles in March of that year. The weapons would have been SMLEs, I know, but that's about all I know because I'm no expert. Would they have been MkIII or MkIII*?
How do you say MkIII*, do you say 'mark three star'?

I'm guessing the guns would not have been called No1 back in 1916 because that nomenclature did not come in until the 1920s? Is that right?

Why are some of these Lee Enfields called 'Lithgows'? Would the 1916 recruits have had Lithgows?

Just hoping to get it right.
Thanks if anyone has time to answer. Much appreciated in advance.

LongLee
(Also looking for written descriptions of loading, cleaning, fixing bayonets, etc.)

[Son]

Hello, LongLee and welcome to Gunboards forums. This thread is about the Lithgow Sniper rifles, but I suppose it answers one of your questions- Lithgow is a town west of Sydney where the Small Arms Factory was set up in 1913 and still produces weapons today. I don't have time at the moment to go through all your questions, so I have put a copy of your posting on the Lee Enfield Forum. Click on this link and it will take you to the forum, the title of the thread is "New Member, LongLee, Question brought over from Sniper forum".

The guys (all great people) at the Lee Enfield forum will start put info on it when they find it. I'll get back later and fill in any gaps.

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=55

[LongLee]

Thanks Son, very much appreciated. Interesting to know that Lithgow is still in operation today. I'll check out the link.

Hello, LongLee and welcome to Gunboards forums. This thread is about the Lithgow Sniper rifles, but I suppose it answers one of your questions- Lithgow is a town west of Sydney where the Small Arms Factory was set up in 1913 and still produces weapons today. I don't have time at the moment to go through all your questions, so I have put a copy of your posting on the Lee Enfield Forum. Click on this link and it will take you to the forum, the title of the thread is "New Member, LongLee, Question brought over from Sniper forum".

The guys (all great people) at the Lee Enfield forum will start put info on it when they find it. I'll get back later and fill in any gaps.

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=55

[drew62]

here are some pics of some sniper rifles hope you all like them my dad collects them and mk 4 expermentals .....

[Son]

here are some pics of some sniper rifles hope you all like them my dad collects them and mk 4 expermentals .....

Welcome aboard, drew62. That's some pretty impressive wallpaper your dad has there- I'll bet you never get tired of the view!
Which part of the planet are you on? I'm in NSW, Australia. There's people here from all over the place, so you'll be a local to somebody!

If there's any questions you have about the Lithgow snipers, or even the experimentals, ask away.

Cheers,
Brad.

Jan 20, going to be off forum for a couple of weeks. Please be patient if you post- I will reply as soon as I get back on line.

[drew62]

hi sorry about late reply but ... any way im in aust and wont say much more as old boy is tight about his snipers think he has most of them but still wants more he is avid collector he picks up some from time to time will keep you informed if you like...

[Son]

Drew, I've gathered a fair amount of data on these rifles mainly through the generous contributions of a lot of people worldwide. If there's anything you or your father would like to ask me about the Lithgow snipers, feel free to post it here. By the same token, all the guys on this forum together seem to cover just about everything there is to know about just about every sniper rifle produced. I'm sure any input or enquiry on any rifle would be well received here below.
Cheers,
Brad.

[Son]

To any that are interested, I've gone through the posts and re-posted all the pics that went missing at the upgrade a while back.
Also, if anybody would like any info on these rifles or even a particular pic taken, let me know and I'll get to it.

Here's another couple overall views of mine in an Enfield aiming stand and with a few other sniper bits.

[Mike1967]

Here are the details of mine
1)Rifle serial number - 22996
2)Receiver manufacturer - Lithgow
3)Receiver year stamp - 1915
4)Butt date stamp? 9/45
5)Butt size (S, N, L) "H" stamp - H and Normal
6)Barrel date stamp-
7)Engraved Scope serial number - Yes- 49787
8)Scope brass eyepiece ring stamped number
9)Mount ring stamped number
10)Mount base stamped number
11)Mount type (high or low) - low
12)Nosecap ears modified for sight adjustment - No
13)Kingscrew swivel fitted -No
14)Preservative paint under woodwork -No
15)Cheekpiece fitted to butt -No
16)Comments - I believe this was once a range rifle as it still has a Central front sight fitted. Stock has been re-done at some stage but very professionally. Probably been re blued at some point as well. I will complete the scope details shortly.

Cheers Mike

[Mike1967]

The rubber eyepiece just doesn't seem to exist. I've never struck anybody that has actually seen one, let alone have an original. As far as scope cases and lens caps go, they seem to be a bit of a lottery. With the original survey Vulch put together they weren't noted but quite a few respondants mentioned them, either as having or looking for. Some cases have had thier scope number written on them- I even had a fellow willing to trade his miss-matched case to the bloke who had the matching scope, but the knucklehead had packed the poops over finding out one of his rifles was a fake and never responded to my messages. Oh well, you just can't help some people.....

Vulch was working on a way to re-pro the rubber eyepiece.... if you spot a posting from him, ask if he ever did any more about them.

Cheers,
Brad. (Son)

I have a rubber eyepiece. And in excellent condition.