T99 sniper with 4x7 scope
Results 1 to 31 of 31

Thread: T99 sniper with 4x7 scope

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9

    Default T99 sniper with 4x7 scope

    I have what appears to be a Kokura T99 sniper with 4x7 scope. Was told they didn't make any with the 4 power scope. Honeycutts book references there being 4 know rifles with them. Would like to know more about mine.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20170320_183012_1490057560398.jpg   20170320_182922_1490057579453.jpg   20170320_182924_1490057593168.jpg   20170320_183124_1490057609009.jpg   20170318_185357_1490057624726.jpg   20170318_185423_1490057643306.jpg  

    20170318_075823_1490057670272.jpg   20170318_185445_1490057690501.jpg  
    Last edited by Japnut99; 03-23-2017 at 02:19 PM.

  2. #2
    fredh is offline Platinum Bullet Member with clusters
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,946

    Default

    In an early edition, I included the info because they were being reported here and there. After examining one, I knew the rifle was bogus and had to delete that info. All Kokura 7.7 snipers are equipped with 2.5X scopes. The origin of the Kokura 4X scope rifles goes back to the early '80s where an industrious individual in Ca was turning out fake snipers. If you familiarize yourself with the fonts on the snipers, it's easy enough to spot the fakes without trying too hard. Denny was good but not that good. There are other features that are wrong, but I just don't want to provide a cookbook for sniper production.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9

    Default

    So with that being the case was this ever a real sniper rifle?

  4. Remove Advertisements
    GunBoards.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    4,716

    Default

    So a four power scope block, Kokura arsenal mark & serial numbers were added?

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Posts
    278

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fredh View Post
    All Kokura 7.7 snipers are equipped with 2.5X scopes. The origin of the Kokura 4X scope rifles goes back to the early '80s where an industrious individual in Ca was turning out fake snipers. If you familiarize yourself with the fonts on the snipers, it's easy enough to spot the fakes without trying too hard. Denny was good but not that good. There are other features that are wrong, but I just don't want to provide a cookbook for sniper production.
    Fred, Do you have any estimets about the quantity that the CA faker made? As Jareth asked - did he make 4X mounitng blocks, bend bolt handles, front bands and stamp numbers into all of these to match as well? It would be helpful to get some of the story down in print and maybe pin the thread. The last thing anyone wants to find out is that they bought a fake and are stuck with it. These will end up on some auction sites for sure. I'm sure there is a way to outline this at a simple level without arming fakers But protecting future buyers??

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    4,716

    Default

    The original poster still would like confirmation one way or another if his rifle is a total fake or?

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    5,821

    Default

    I see that the clearance cut for the spring latch is not correct. I know that Kokura made less than 1000 sniper rifles. The 4 digits serial number should be a good clue as to it's possibly bogus. Also I'd love to see what is under the mount?
    Preserving history. One rifle at a time.

  9. #8
    fredh is offline Platinum Bullet Member with clusters
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gratefulwon View Post
    Fred, Do you have any estimets about the quantity that the CA faker made? As Jareth asked - did he make 4X mounitng blocks, bend bolt handles, front bands and stamp numbers into all of these to match as well? It would be helpful to get some of the story down in print and maybe pin the thread. The last thing anyone wants to find out is that they bought a fake and are stuck with it. These will end up on some auction sites for sure. I'm sure there is a way to outline this at a simple level without arming fakers But protecting future buyers??
    Jareth, Ed, I'm not an authority on Denny's work. I've been told he did the whole enchilada, but there are others on the board more knowledgeable than me on his work. Did he make many? I aint got no clue, but he did make some. He was in Ca, and the 'net wasn't here yet, so I was late learning about him. I didn't attend the shows, except a couple times/year here in Fl, 'til retirement, and I still don't get around much. I started paying attention to him when he tried to pass a T2 sniper off on me. To be honest, I really wanted that rifle to be right, but it didn't make sense - a sniper rifle is a defensive weapon, and a T2 is an offense weapon. I wanted him to send the rifle to me on approval in the end, and I never heard from him again, so I knew something was up. From that point on, I was on a learning curve. If he did make that rifle, the photos he sent showed really good (but not perfect) work. Wish I could be of more help, but that's about the limit of my knowledge on his activity.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    174

    Default

    The first time I ever encountered a Kokura type 99 sniper rifle was here in Sacramento , Ca. The dealer was selling 2 type 99 snipers 1 was a Nagoya and the other was a Kokura both with 4 power scopes 3500.00 for each I called Victor Soto and asked him about them and he said Kokura never made a type 99 with a 4 power scope. I was very disappointed because the Kokura was very nice it had the beaver chewed stock and a nicer blue job on it they both had ground mums but nice all matching guns. I didn't know Victor very well and I hoped and prayed he knew what he was talking about ,I even mentioned Fred Honeycutts book Victor got really stern and told me don't be a fool with your money you have been warned ,Im glad I took his advise and passed on the Kokura, I seen the same dealer at the big Reno show the next weekend he had just sold t he Kokura to another dealer everybody I talked to about it acted like Victor didn't know what he was talking about but I now know better . Buyer Beware I do think someone could and should print a book about all the fake stuff out there German ,American & Japanese. Rick

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Posts
    278

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Japnut99 View Post
    So with that being the case was this ever a real sniper rifle?
    I think not due to the right, left combination punches of there being no 4X Kokura's ever made AND the the serial numbers for the Kokura's that were made probably were under 1,000 or so (per Soto and Allan). BUT - let the final verdict be from the authors themselves. Sorry friend but it doesn't look good at this point.

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    5,821

    Default

    I'd like to see inside the receiver were the screws end. Bolt must be pulled back to view.
    Preserving history. One rifle at a time.

  13. #12
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9

    Default

    Attachment 2066370Fred's book referes to the highs known being in the 1700s is this not true?

  14. #13
    fredh is offline Platinum Bullet Member with clusters
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Japnut99 View Post
    Attachment 2066370Fred's book referes to the highs known being in the 1700s is this not true?
    That data is in an earlier printing. Printings of MROJ for the past 20 years or so show Kokura production using the 2.5X scope only. We're focusing here on the Kokura rifle, but please don't forget that Denny played with Nagoya production also.

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Posts
    278

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fredh View Post
    That data is in an earlier printing. Printings of MROJ for the past 20 years or so show Kokura production using the 2.5X scope only. We're focusing here on the Kokura rifle, but please don't forget that Denny played with Nagoya production also.
    Wow - guess I missed the obvious (Denny faked Nagoya's too). So, the swimming pool has dangerous sharks in it - we kind of suspected that at this point on the Kokura 4X7, but it sure would be helpful to know more about the various habits of that shark. I assume Denny isn't alive or isn't making them anymore or ??

    I sure would like to hear from the Sniper Book authors on this subject please - people are losing their ass out there and if we, the "Banzai remnant", don't know the who, what and why - or won't document it for fellow collectors then who ever will! This isn't chump change we are talking about here.
    Last edited by gratefulwon; 03-22-2017 at 12:09 PM.

  16. #15
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Where's the like button

  17. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gratefulwon View Post
    Wow - guess I missed the obvious (Denny faked Nagoya's too). So, the swimming pool has dangerous sharks in it - we kind of suspected that at this point on the Kokura 4X7, but it sure would be helpful to know more about the various habits of that shark. I assume Denny isn't alive or isn't making them anymore or ??

    I sure would like to hear from the Sniper Book authors on this subject please - people are losing their ass out there and if we, the "Banzai remnant", don't know the who, what and why - or won't document it for fellow collectors then who ever will! This isn't chump change we are talking about here.

    +1 I agree. How's anyone going to know what is real or not if the people who know refuse to inform? That's just setting the stage for fakes to be more easily sold.

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    5,642

    Default

    Did some enhancement of the arsenal marking and serial number. The circles of the arsenal stamp aren't overlapped correctly and the entire marking looks to have been added over the top of something else. Just my $0.02.

    C/
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20170320_183012_1490057560398.jpg  

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    7

    Default

    I agree, that is the most frustrating thing about this addiction. I love every other aspect of it and spend lots of money on it. But at times I just want to walk away thinking even with all of my homework my chance of getting the original untouched nice example is next to no chance and the chance of being duped is extremely high. Arrrgh. If someone is fraudulently selling, even after questioning, then that person should be exposed. And those in the know should not hesitate to expose them. I see it as a duty to the rest of us that have the sincere honest passion.

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Glendive, MT
    Posts
    784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by seinen View Post
    Did some enhancement of the arsenal marking and serial number. The circles of the arsenal stamp aren't overlapped correctly and the entire marking looks to have been added over the top of something else. Just my $0.02.

    C/
    I seen this too!
    Is it just me or is blueing not matching the rest of receiver or the rest of the rifle?

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    7

    Default

    And I should add, I wouldn't expect the identifying aspects to be explained so that the cookbook for fakes are created. No, just give the name of the person and the various sites and names their items are sold under. Just my $.02

  22. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Within earshot of the sound of freedom from Camp Pendleton, Ca
    Posts
    1,024

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldpilot View Post
    And I should add, I wouldn't expect the identifying aspects to be explained so that the cookbook for fakes are created. No, just give the name of the person and the various sites and names their items are sold under. Just my $.02
    I agree Op. The only problem is being sued for libel. These people being unscrupulous to begin with, would probably not hesitate to hire some shyster lawyer to file a lawsuit also, if their name was associated with fraud.

    It is unfortunate that our hobby has been discovered by crooks looking to make a fast buck. But the smell of easy money has a strong attraction.

    The main thing is educate yourself as best you can. The authors that participate on this forum have put a lot of effort into their works, and I am grateful. As our friend Trenchwarfare says,
    "Before starting any serious collection: Spend your first thousand dollars on reference material. It's money in the bank."

    Dean (the other one)

  23. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    6,905

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldpilot View Post
    And I should add, I wouldn't expect the identifying aspects to be explained so that the cookbook for fakes are created. No, just give the name of the person and the various sites and names their items are sold under. Just my $.02
    As Fred mentioned, this problem began decades ago. I can recall Doss White's posts in Banzai back in the '80s where he described on many occasions his attempts to identify and confront the crook who was assembling the fake snipers. The same guy was suspected of creating fake Test Type 1 Type 38 paratrooper carbines with the folding stock as well as fantasy pieces like a "night fighting" rifle with a flashlight attachment.

    If my memory is accurate Doss described this guy as a skinny man with the face of a rat who wore a funny hat. Evidently this character brought a change of clothing and other disguises to gun shows to conceal his identity.

    To the best of my knowledge the faker was never photographed or identified in any detail. There may have been a few allegations and nasty words exchanged at shows, but I can't recall reports of any satisfactory resolution or no holds barred confrontation. This guy was like Doss' white whale, talked about, seen only in the dark or shadows, pursued relentlessly, but never caught.

    We have lost so many of the old hands I can't help but hope this miserable old bastard is now six feet under.
    Purists of the world, unite!

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
    Samuel Adams

  24. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    5,821

    Default

    In my 20 years of collecting type 99 rifles I have seen maybe 6 Kokura sniper rifles. All I saw were real and every one had the additional Kanji on the receiver. That's all I'll say about that. That particular stamping appears to have be done by hand. That's another item that would immediately raise a red flag for me. The lack of it on this rifle.
    Preserving history. One rifle at a time.

  25. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Posts
    278

    Default

    Big Ed - by extra kanji I am assuming that you are referring to the characters for "DAI" under where TYPE 99 appears on the receiver? Per Soto and Allan it "appears extensively on the last approximately 500 Kokura sniper rifles, and less often in the initial 500".

    Good point! Not conclusive, but a good indicator to look at.

  26. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Posts
    278

    Default

    So Richard in NY - I don't know if the "guy" in your story is the same one but the guy we are talking about is Denny Goodwin and he is no longer alive per accounts. He actually was somewhat of a master counterfeiter, according to my friends who knew him he also did some IJN officers two-strippers caps, some near perfect stencil anchor helmets , even one attempt at a navy paratrooper helmet! He moved on to German sniper rifles with a now defunct outfit called "Waffen Arms". Story is that when the hordes of Russian captured came in they hand selected K98 rifles for the conversions. Supposedly being sold as "accurate reproductions using authentic parts. All this is 2nd hand.

    Anyway, I think this forum should have a "Pinned/Sticky" with something like "FAKE KOKURA SNIPER - NO SUCH THING AS A "4X7" SCOPED VERSION EVER MADE!" Or something like it if this is too long.

    Some brief explanation as to why these 4X7's became suspect. Mention that there was/ is still is some confusion stemming from early MROJ versions based on data that seemed to validate the existence of 4 known examples of a 4X7 variant. This was cleared up in MROJ version xx (published 19??) and then buttressed by years of continuous research data and serial number collection efforts in Banzai Special projects... to show these were never wartime produced rifles... yada yada yada Then just a quick reference that the only true Kokura made snipers were all 2.5 cutbacks, etc and the highest number found on these rifles has been XXX. Maybe a photo or two - if even required - because the Sticky title really broadcasts the clear "Heads Up!" and STOP!! sign. Fairly short and sweet and to the point about this particular and obvious (now) fake only.

    Fredh or Victor or Francis - if you think this is reasonable would any of you volunteer to author/coauthor a short Kokura 4x7 fake sticky for the Banzai collector community? Other fakes could be addressed later on or not, but this one, IMHO is a must. I gave it a rough outline above but I don't have anywhere near the rifle and sniper resume that you guys have and I don't want to add error - your input would be greatly appreciated and would pay dividends for years and years.

    Sincerely
    Gratefulwon

  27. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    5,821

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gratefulwon View Post
    Big Ed - by extra kanji I am assuming that you are referring to the characters for "DAI" under where TYPE 99 appears on the receiver? Per Soto and Allan it "appears extensively on the last approximately 500 Kokura sniper rifles, and less often in the initial 500".

    Good point! Not conclusive, but a good indicator to look at.

    That would be correct. There is a "real" Kokura sniper on GB right now. But I'm not liking the stock.
    Preserving history. One rifle at a time.

  28. #27
    fredh is offline Platinum Bullet Member with clusters
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,946

    Default

    I've got a Kokura packed away. I wouldn't have responded to this posting, but my name was mentioned. Since I seem to be the only one talking about identification, sometime in the near future, I'll unpack the rifle and take photos of the obvious. One thing I do not want to do is set myself up as a go-to guy for authentication for these things. An important fact that has come out of this posting is that we're all vulnerable, but at the same time we're learning. MROJ is a living document and will continue to change as more info is accumulated. It was only after 2000 or so that the 'net became so important. Now, info is growing asymptotically. I've got one Kokura, got it back about '66 and have never had an opportunity to pick up another. So, maybe if I provide a few photos, someone else who has one can do the same.

  29. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    11,511

    Default

    I am not sure it is needed to have a sticky or explanation that no 4X Kokura 99 snipers were produced. They simply were not.

    I have several Kokura 99 snipers now and have had others. Not all have the additional DAI receiver markings and I have never heard that disputed. Every one I have, and have ever owned, has been reviewed here as being original by Vic, and others. Any serial numbers over 1000 is automatically a no go IMO.

    To simply say no 4X example has ever been authenticated should not take a sticky, just there is no such animal and buy one on a million to one chance is enough said IMO.

    Some sniper fakes are hard to detect. A 4X Kokura or serial number over 1000 is not a hard one at this point in time.

  30. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Posts
    278

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mike radford View Post
    I am not sure it is needed to have a sticky or explanation that no 4X Kokura 99 snipers were produced. They simply were not.

    I have several Kokura 99 snipers now and have had others. Not all have the additional DAI receiver markings and I have never heard that disputed. Every one I have, and have ever owned, has been reviewed here as being original by Vic, and others. Any serial numbers over 1000 is automatically a no go IMO.

    To simply say no 4X7 example has ever been authenticated should not take a sticky, just there is no such animal and buy one on a million to one chance is enough said IMO.

    Some sniper fakes are hard to detect. A 4X Kokura or serial number over 1000 is not a hard one at this point in time.
    Mike, Sorry I think I might not have communicated my central point very well. I think you know they SHOULDN'T EXIST because you collect and specialize in snipers and climbed up the learning curve years ago - but the guy who started the post bought one! If he had referenced his old MROJ reference book (which he quoted below) it will say they might exist! It's no fault of Fred's, he just went with what seemed accurate at the time and of course the collective knowledge grew and later revisions of MROJ don't say that. But the need to communicate the truth is there.

    And so - my central point - ultimately where do you want such a basic the truth to be found? In Victor's book it's "implied" they don't exist but that can only be deduced after you can't find a category in the serial number section for 4X7 Kokuras! If you reference an older MROJ - well it "might exist". So this all of this just muddy's the water and leaves a clear pot hole in the road unfilled IMHO. I think a sticky on "All Kokura 4X are Fake" is a simple way to help the community of Japanese rifle collectors that might want to expand into IJA snipers from getting a big hole blown in their wallet. I understand "buy the book -then buy the gun" and I even quote that all the time but sometimes life and gunshows just don't unfold that way :-P

    I also find it ironic as hell that the cheater who made these (and we don't know how many total "these" amounts to) over thirty years ago, has been dead for over 7 years, but his thievery still lives on to rob honest people today. Not trying to stir anything up guys! -Just seems like the right thing to do in this situation. Anyway I've beat this dead horse long enough so I will retire from the conversation -unless personally attacked :-)
    Last edited by gratefulwon; 03-24-2017 at 10:44 AM.

  31. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    11,511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gratefulwon View Post
    Mike, Sorry I think I might not have communicated my central point very well. I think you know they SHOULDN'T EXIST because you collect and specialize in snipers and climbed up the learning curve years ago - but the guy who started the post bought one! If he had referenced his old MROJ reference book (which he quoted below) it will say they might exist! It's no fault of Fred's, he just went with what seemed accurate at the time and of course the collective knowledge grew and later revisions of MROJ don't say that. be the need to commincate the truth is there

    And so - my central point - ultimately where do you want such a basic the truth to be found? I think a sticky is a simple way to help the community of Japanese rifle collectors that might want to expand into IJA snipers from getting a big hole blown in their wallet. I understand "buy the book -then buy the gun" and I even quote that all the time but sometimes life just doesn't unfold that way :-P

    I also find it ironic as hell that the cheater who made these (and we don't know how many total "these" amounts to) over thirty years ago, has been dead for over 7 years, but his thievery still lives on to rob honest people today. Not trying to stir anything up guys! -Just seems like the right thing to do in this situation. Anyway I've beat this dead horse long enough so I will retire from the conversation -unless personally attacked :-)
    I see your point. The hobby has long been full of faker scum. A quick search or posting a few pics here before purchase would probably work.

    The book by Vic and Frank is affordable and probably a good investment. Both have taken calls and emails from me and both have posted their emails.

  32. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    174

    Default

    Sorry to beat a dead horse but here it goes. I went back in my old emails and I found the a email to Victor dated 3-15-2012 about the Kokura I found at the Sacramento show the # was 1795 .I knew the rifle # 1648 wasn't it because the stock on # 1795 had that beaver chewed look. The rifle #264 that Fred Honeycutt wrote about in his book has been converted from a 2.5 to a 4 power. Victor figured that out when a Kokura with the same number and being 2.5 surfaced in his research. Im no expert but from what I have been told, the rifle could be a real sniper with a 2.5 mount that has been converted to a 4 power or a regular Kokura made into a sniper ,looking at 1648 I think it was a regular Kokura rifle that was turned into a sniper . The dealer selling the rifle at the Sacramento show told me he was selling some old guys collection ,I looked at it Saturday called Victor with numbers and info and when he said the Kokura was a fake I went back on Sunday and told the guy what Victor had said .He acted like Victor didn't know what he was talking about ,the next time I seen him was at the Big Reno Show ,he had just sold it to another dealer, I once again told the fake story to that dealer he also acted like Victor didn't know what he was talking about.Kind of like a hot potato your just trying to get rid of so you don't get burnt yourself. O yes no body likes the messenger, after telling these dealers the truth they no longer want to deal with me,Go Figure . Ive heard the 1 many times spend your first 1000 on books and research ,Ive got a lot of books some with incorrect info . My advice, spend your first 1000 on a computer and research before you buy ,books are also good for research but there not perfect this is a good example. Rick
    Last edited by General Gordy; 03-24-2017 at 10:59 PM. Reason: mispelled word

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •