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Harrington and Richardson H&R MC-58 Model 65 Modified (USMC .22 Trainer)

183K views 425 replies 86 participants last post by  Cass 
#1 · (Edited)
I had posted some pictures and a request for information on the old boards, looking for any information and data on the H&R MC-58 trainers that were used by the USMC. A lot of people have contacted me with questions and information because of those posts, so I thought I would transfer some of the info over to the new Boards.

I'm specifically looking for information about the serial numbers and markings for the MC-58 rifles.

Most sources indicate that there were less than 3500 of these rifles made for the USMC with serial numbers running from about 6,000 through 9,500. They were an update of the MOD 65 H&R Reising procured for the USMC during WWII. The most noticeable difference was the relocation of the safety from the right side of the receiver to the front of the trigger guard to better simulate the operation to the M1 and M14 rifles.

I'd like to hear from any of you that have MC-58's.

Thanks,
Cass


There were two different types of receiver markings on the H&R MC-58 receivers. Both types are different from the earlier WWII era H&R Model 65 Reising trainers.

The two types are:

USMC PROPERTY, MODEL MC-58
H&R MODEL #65 MODIFIED
HARRINGTON & RICHARDSON, INC.

and:

U.S. MODEL MC-58
H&R MODEL #65 MODIFIED
HARRINGTON & RICHARDSON, INC.

The earlier WWII trainers were marked:

MOD. 65 - H.& R. REISING 22 CAL.
HARRINGTON AND RICHARDSON ARMS CO.
WORCESTER, MASS. U.S.A.

The USMC marked MC-58 rifles I have recorded seem to run in the earlier serial number range and the US in the later numbers.

I have US and USMC marked Remington 40X's from about the same time period, so they had apparently begun to require different marking around that time.

The first picture is of the USMC PROPERTY type marking.



The second picture is the US MODEL MC-58 type marking.



For comparison the third picture shows the WWII era Model 65 Reising markings.

 
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#30 · (Edited)
Sirs:

I am new to the forum, and found it through a google search. I am researching information on a rifle left to me by my father, and it appears to be a .22 of the type discussed in this thread. The markings are similar to this one mentioned above:

U.S. MODEL MC-58
H&R MODEL #65 MODIFIED
HARRINGTON & RICHARDSON, INC

I don't have the rifle in front of me, but if I recall it is in the serial # range 6xxx. It has the green mesh sling and 1 mag.

I do not want to sell it but curious about value for insurance purposes, as well as whether I should use it or just store it? I imagine the value is around $4-500 based on other things I've seen but cannot be certain. It doesn't appear to be one of the more rare versions based on what i've read.

Thanks in advance!

Chris

BTW, great thread with good information and pictures...

Edit to add and correct -- The serial # is in the 9xxx range. Also there is what appears to be a series of digits in grease pencil markings on one side of the rifle near the butt and a stenciled #4 in yellow. Otherwise all appears to be in great shape.
 
#31 ·
Chris:

I just saw your post as well as your other post with the pictures. Nice rifle!

I'm glad you found the forum. That is one of the reasons I have all the pictures and used every possible search term I could in the title, ha!

There were fewer of the U.S. Property marked rifles than the USMC marked, so you do have a rare version. All of the MC-58's bring a fairly high price. I have seen them run from about $650 (with some missing parts or other issues) up to over $2700 for a new in the box rifles at a Civilian Marksmanship auction. For insurance I would use from $1,000 to $1,500.

Since this is not a mint rifle, a little shooting won't hurt it at all.

Cass
 
#32 · (Edited)
Just got the one I've had for years sitting in a gun sock all cleaned up. Here's some pics of the first. Just have to find a magazine and a rear sight and I'll be good to go.

Found a "Department Of Interior" sticker with a number underneath th e buttplate. What in the world is this? Said somehting like Fisheries and Game or something.
 
#39 ·
Yea here you go Cass. Havn't had a chance to track down any parts for this thing.
I just noticed this thread - that sticker is very familiar :D It was used by what's now known as the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, back when they had a branch called the Bureau of Sport Fisheries & Wildlife. This branch existed between 1956 when it was created and 1970 when it was transferred to the Department of Commerce and renamed the National Marine Fisheries Service. So that sticker was applied to the rifle sometime between those years, when it was registered in a field office's inventory. I'm guessing it was used by FWS employees as part of their daily job, for controlling pests on a National Wildlife Refuge or for collecting biological samples for research. Interesting!
 
#37 · (Edited)
I seen your post on the tag under the butt plate. So I checked two of my three rifles. Under the USMC Model 65 MC-58 I found nothing. Under one of my Model 65 butt plate I found that someone drilled two 3/4 inch holes and had placed seven Winchester .22LR rounds in each hole for total of 14 rounds total. Interesting.
 
#38 ·
I found that someone drilled two 3/4 inch holes and had placed seven Winchester .22LR rounds in each hole for total of 14 rounds total. Interesting.
This is actually quite common practice on wood stock .22's. Obviously not a good idea in hindsight, but for a rifle that you would be taking camping, hiking, or just generally out in the woods, this ensures you always have ammo on hand incase of an emergency.
 
#42 ·
Let me try this again..are there any Model 65s that are NOT C&R right now? I know the 165 ran from 1947 to 1961, and the MC-58 is kind of obvious.
 
#45 ·
New to this rifle

I just picked up one of these in Tulsa last week. The serial is in the 6500 range. It has the USMC markings, safety like the Garand, I would rate finish 97% or better. Bolt has a little speckle to it. ( I have not tried to clean it ). The stock has a small DOD acceptance stamp on the inside of the pistol grip? Would the stamp be right? The stock is perfect and appears original to the gun. Does anyone know when it would have been made? It also had a garand sling on it. Web that is. I am new to these rifles and any information would be great.
 
#46 ·
I just picked up one of these in Tulsa last week. The serial is in the 6500 range. It has the USMC markings, safety like the Garand, I would rate finish 97% or better. Bolt has a little speckle to it. ( I have not tried to clean it ). The stock has a small DOD acceptance stamp on the inside of the pistol grip? Would the stamp be right? The stock is perfect and appears original to the gun. Does anyone know when it would have been made? It also had a garand sling on it. Web that is. I am new to these rifles and any information would be great.
Hello tut1559:

It sounds like you found a nice one. The MC-58 stocks are the ones that had the DOD stamp. The earlier Mod 65 stocks were unmarked.

That serial number is at the lower end of the range. They ran up to about 9500. The bolts were "in the white", so its common to see them with some speckling even on unissued rifles. The extractors can also rust in place.

They were made in the late 50's, 1958 and 1959. They were introduced at the time the M14 rifles were introduced.

I'll send you an e-mail too.

Thanks,
Cass
 
#49 ·
Confused a bit. Did only the 58s have the safety in the trigger guard? Also saw one with "APG" stamped on it. Meaning?
vintovka,

Yes, only the MC-58's have the Garand style safety in the trigger guard. Although I've never seen one marked "APG," it's likely to stand for "Aberdeen Proving Ground."

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
 
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#50 ·
Cass, Spotted another Mod 65 for your records however, this one is a bit strange. Standard Mod 65 markings except that right above the reciever markings it is stamped "USMC property" using what looks like standard die stamps. Two things that were on the down side. Someone had drilled and tapped it for a scope along the left side of the barrel (had to take a small bit of the stock out to fit). The two holes are drilled so the "22 long rifle" is centered in between them. The other thing that was on the down side was the price for the condition at $800 plus. Serial #15518. Seems like a high number for USMC use?
 
#51 ·
Cass, Spotted another Mod 65 for your records however, this one is a bit strange. Standard Mod 65 markings except that right above the reciever markings it is stamped "USMC property" using what looks like standard die stamps. Two things that were on the down side. Someone had drilled and tapped it for a scope along the left side of the barrel (had to take a small bit of the stock out to fit). The two holes are drilled so the "22 long rifle" is centered in between them. The other thing that was on the down side was the price for the condition at $800 plus. Serial #15518. Seems like a high number for USMC use?
type-14,

Any chance of posting a picture of the "USMC Property" marking on your Model 65? I'd like to document it and compare it to my Model 65 NM with a "USMC" marking.

Thanks!

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
 
#54 · (Edited)
Eureka! After 6 months of toil by me and 3 gunsmiths, I finally have my Model 65 up and running like a clock!
When I purchase it, the rear sight had been "hit" such that the adjustment screws would no longer turn. I sent that off to the "rear sight doctor" to be straightened up and fixed. Also the rifle refused to cycle 2 rounds consecutively-ever. My attempt to diagnosis the problem was without success. Gunsmith # 1 said he fixed it and it shot fine for him but never would for me. I came close to selling it at this point. However I tried another gunsmith this past weekend and by gosh he fixed it! I shot several magazines through it without a hitch. For what it's worth, he said there were was discernable roughness to the bolt face which prevented the base of the next round from sliding up and seating properly. He carefully smoothed the bolt face and that solved the problem.
The gun is immaculate so I figure the bolt face issue must have always existed and the gun must not have ever been fired much.
I probably have more gunsmith money in this rifle than what it is worth but that is no longer important. I'm excited about getting it up and running and am now curious at how well it will shoot. For those interested, the serial # on mine is 17190, has all the early pre-1947 features and is parkerized (it now has that greenish tinge to it).

Also a question: Is the barrel and receiver one piece or two pieces? Is the barrel screwed into the receiver?
Thanks!
Kim
 
#55 ·
My dad's Mod 65

Hello, my name is Doug Farrell from So Cal and I just found this site. I'm posting because I have un-earthed my dads Korean war target rifle. The last time it was fired was by me, in 1976. It has been lost, found, lost, and found again due to moving several times. But I have always held onto it and I have always had it in a rifle case.
I know nothing about this rifle. It seems to be in tact but I seem to be missing the mag(can't even remember how many rounds it holds). I'd like to get a couple of them if they are available.
The barrel has this stamped next to the three site dials:

MOD 65-H & R Reising 22 CAL
Harrington and Richardson Arms Co.
Worchestor, MASS USA

The serial# is 17142

Is there a way to find out when it was manufactured? My dad served in '50-'51. Any special hidden spots to look for? What is the big screw for in front where the mag goes in? It also has a sling that is in great shape. The whole rifle looks to be in great shape.

I am not looking to sell it but to get it back to operating order. It worked great in '76...25 years after it was in service.

Any help or guidance would be apprecated. I remember it being really heavy when I was 16. Not so much anymore at 49.

Thanks,

Doug
P.S. I can post pictures
 
#56 ·
You H&R 65 was probaly made at the end of WW11. The H&R 65 was a training rifle for USMC. Somewhere it was written about serial number 17,000 is thought to be the cut off serial number for military guns. There are no records known. So yours could be and it could not be military. In 1945 H&R started selling remaining Models 65 to civilians.
You should be able to get magazines from Dave McWhorter sales in Mich, 260-962-0214. clipgrip@aol.com Good luck.
 
#57 ·
Thank you for your information. My goal is to have this rifle in top firing order so I can take my dad to the firing range for his birthday while he can still shoot straight. I know he hasn't seen the rifle in at least 40 years and hasn't fired any firearm since the war.
Doug
 
#103 ·
"Rat Rifle" and Serial Number Assertions for Model 65's and MC-58's

I read through this thread again last night, and noticed one unanswered question that I could answer. I also noticed serial number assertions made in 3 posts, about which I’d like to inquire further. I thought I’d post again, and revive this excellent thread.

There is a posting over on milsup.com under .22 Smallbore rifles about a H&R 65 USMC "Rat-Gun". Posted as a H&R 65 Trainer during WW11 with a silencer on it to shoot rats in the garbage dumps in the South Seas Islands. Anyone ever heard of this?
Yes. A board member here, and also on one of my boards has a Model 65 “Rat Rifle.” The front sight is set back further than a normal Model 65, and a portion of the barrel is threaded. It also has a thread cover to protect the threads when not in use. It was designed to use a .22 Maxim Silencer, and saw use by Marines in the Pacific in WWII for shooting rats. It was apparently also intended for small game hunting. The person who sent me photos of his Model 65 “Rat Rifle” indicated that a WWII USMC Pacific veteran saw him carrying it at a gun show, and told him some stories of using one during the war.

My next comments are in regards to the following three assertions made in this thread about serial numbers:

Assertion #1
You H&R 65 was probably made at the end of WW11. The H&R 65 was a training rifle for USMC. Somewhere it was written about serial number 17,000 is thought to be the cut off serial number for military guns. There are no records known. So yours could be and it could not be military. In 1945 H&R started selling remaining Models 65 to civilians.
Assertion #2:
boyt44:

Nice rifle. By the serial number that was definitely one of the WWII USMC rifles.
Cass
Assertion #3:
Hello Scott:

From the serial number it would have been made for the USMC during WWII.
Cass
Does anyone have documentation to support any particular Model 65 serial number range being acquired by the Marine Corps? Has any contractual information been researched? I would be very interested to see any documentation that exists.

I have one theory that could support how the assertion came about. I’ve seen individuals on the internet say that approximately the first 6000 Model 65’s were Marine Corps rifles. I wonder whether the 6000 figure may originate from a misperception that the later MC-58 serial numbers were an extension of the Model 65 serial number range. From the data I’ve collected, I do not believe this to be the case, nor would it make much sense. My records indicate that Model 65 serial numbers probably ran from 1 to over 18000. (The highest Model 65 serial number I have documented is 18489) My documentation includes several Model 65 serial numbers from within the serial number range of observed MC-58’s, which are in the approximate range of 6000 to 9500, give or take a few hundred.

Another, more likely theory is that the misperception about the first 6000 rifles going to the Marine Corps originates from the Thomas D. Batha book, “U.S. Martial .22 RF Rifles.” He estimates that Model 65 production was limited to 6000 units, and indicates that MC-58 production began at serial number 6000, implying that it followed the serial number range of the Model 65. We know this to simply not be true, based on the many examples in existence well beyond his stated Model 65 serial number range, and also within the same serial number range for MC-58’s.

I believe this error by Batha is the reason Cass asked ‘type-14” in his 2/10/12 post to confirm whether serial number 7818 was a Model 65, and not an MC-58 in the post quoted below.
Dale:

Thanks. Is that definitely a Mod 65 and not an MC-58?

The bolt hold open parts are the toughest to find because they broke most easily. He'll just have to get lucky to find them.

Thanks,
Cass
The Batha book is a good guide, but it has several inaccuracies in the Model 65 chapter.

On the subject of H&R WWII serial numbers, my observations are as follows:

Starting serial numbers over for new models was consistent with H&R practices during the WWII period from what I have observed for their Reising family of firearms.

  • Serial numbers appear to have started at 1 for Reising Model 50 Submachine Guns (although the Paratrooper variant Model 55's were produced within the Model 50 serial number range)
  • Serial numbers appear to have started at 1 for Reising Model 60 Semi-Automatic Carbines
  • Serial numbers appear to have started at 1 for Model 65 .22 Rifles
  • Serial numbers appear to have started at 1 for Model 165 “Leatherneck” Rifles
I don’t know if this practice was changed by H&R after WWII, since MC-58 production began 13 years later. From MC-58 rifles observed to date, they appear to have started later in a serial number range, unless there were more produced than is known by anyone so far. I doubt this, so I think we’re dealing with an anomaly or process change in regards to MC-58 serialization when compared to WWII practices. Batha indicates production was limited to 3450 MC-58’s, and I believe that to be an accurate figure, probably based on researched contractual information. He indicates MC-58 serialization began at 6000, which is consistent with observed examples.

My own theory about distribution of the Model 65 during WWII was that the War Production Board allowed Model 65’s to be produced and sold by H&R beginning in 1943, and that the full serial number range may have supported both military and civilian sales. This is supported by a change made to the Reising Model 50 Submachine Gun manual that was advertised and distributed for free during WWII. This was the subject of my first article for Small Arms Review magazine in 2005. H&R was forward focused to sales after the war, while supporting the war effort. They only produced one pistol for civilian use during the war, and then added the Model 65 rifle in 1943. The Model 65 was advertised in the Model 50 SMG manual edition of 1943. Model 65 sales transitioned to the Model 165 “Leatherneck” in May, 1945. I have an H&R letter and flyer that documents the Model 165 changeover.

Others here may have different opinions, and that’s why I’m offering this post up for further discussion on the subject. I’m not one to accept the status quo, and I think this subject deserves more discussion and research.

Your thoughts?

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
 
#60 ·
Model 65

I just found a nice MOD. 65 - H.& R. REISING 22 CAL.
HARRINGTON AND RICHARDSON ARMS CO.
WORCESTER, MASS. U.S.A. at a local flea market it is in great condition unfortunately someone tapped a old weaver scope and frame on side. other than that excellent wood clean no rust or other damage. i removed buttplate it it stamped on wood B-400 serial Number 5746 i paid 120.00 for it. i sort of knew it was military this wonderfull website confirmed it. I am now in the market for the correct peep site for it ! does anyone here know from the serial number range the age of this? thanks Carlos
 
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