PEM ex-sniper with PE scope install & question
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Thread: PEM ex-sniper with PE scope install & question

  1. #1
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    Default PEM ex-sniper with PE scope install & question

    I have been working on a PEM Igor repro mount install in this thread.
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...ength-question

    QUESTION:>> does anyone know if the indexing hash mark on the turret can be easily relocated for the turret markings?
    This is on a PE repro., (non self centering reticle). Could be Chinese or Ukrainian., dunno. For economic reasons I'm using this scope. The scope performed very well without issue.
    I had purchased a repro (Feldscheer?) PEM for my ex-PEM 1942 re-sniper but that was pretty $$$.., but very nice.

    When I first purchased the scope (shame on me) I did not note the location of the index hash marks.
    The elevation mark is facing forward at 12 o'clock.., not very handy for he shooter to adjust.,. and the windage is at 2 o'clock Plan B is to just place an additional indexing mark at 6 o'clock and call it done for elevation and ditto for the windage.

    Here is a pic of the locations>>


    **********************************************
    The re-snipering went very well>
    I completed it and test fired the PEM on Saturday. It was very close to zero from the start. I only had to shift the rough windage screws about 1/4 urn shifting the POI to the left about 3 inches +/-.

    The elevation was off by about 6 inches and a quick turn of the turret and the reticle height was nicely positioned above the centerline of the view at 100 yards. All good and a couple 1.5-20 in groups in the 15 rounds I used. Did not shoot much more as I was zeroing another rifle as well.

    The less good news is that the stock interferes with the mount sliding onto the base. I had to mount the scope with the action out of the rifle then drop it into place.
    Otherwise the stock protrusion behind the base will not allow the mount to slide onto or off of the dovetail. Darn.,this is hit or miss on PEM mounts. My 1942 PEM did not have this issue.
    I will have inlet the stock about 1/16 th (.065" +/-) of an inch and back to the rear some distance to allow the mount to slide into place. Not what I had in mind and a bit of extra shellac and transtint mixing when the wood work is done.

    As in this pic with credit to mosinnagant.net>>



    Pics of the stock interference area>> The stock action is not fully seated in the pic so the area can be more clearly shown. Staining/ Shellac not completed.


    Last edited by AKBLUE; 03-26-2017 at 07:39 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default PEM

    Ah yes, to notch for clearance, to be able to slide mount off of base. I gave this a lot of thought when I rescoped my first PEM. Would it be worth the work involved, and how many times would the scope and mount be removed from the rifle? And the Igor and Feldscher bases are different thicknesses. And the stocks are different also. I ended up notching my '42 and not my '39. As far as the indexing marks on the turrets, I just added new ones with a fine line permanent marker and called it good. I didn't want to take the scopes apart.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 42 PEM 001.jpg  

    42 pem 009.jpg  


  3. #3
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    Yes.,probably I'll add a rear index mark for the windage and elevation turrets. Not a big deal but if it was an easy fix someone had done I would follow suit.

    Not sure yet on inletting the stock. I would try another stock that is more narrow but a pre war step tang stock is not too easy to find. The extra stocks I have are late or post wartime pressed escutheons.

    The 1942 PEM is in an early war time stock with half liner front and naked rear sling slots. Shortened about 1 inch for repair at some point.

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    The PEM mount and scope really transform the 91/30 into a fine sniper rifle. They are a joy to handle and shoot. I have one original, much used, PEM scope and my other one, is one of Feldschers. It is really a nice scope. I see that there are chinese scopes and mounts for sale on ebay, but I don't know much about their quality. If they were acceptable, a guy could put together a replica PEM for not much money. Accumounts has a PEM mount also, so that might be an option?

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    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think that the stocks were always modified to allow the mount to be slid off the base as in the mosinnagant.net reference pic. I have a '42 ex-PEM and I believe it is in it's original stock. Notice that the stock was only cut-out where the mount would be, and not behind. Would you have to remove the stock before you could remove the mount or does it vary, as AKBLUE seemed to indicate on his '42?


  7. #6
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    The stock on my Finn captured PEM isn't relieved for removing the scope mount. The scope slips off just fine.
    "The only real power comes out of a long rifle."- Joseph Stalin

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    It depends on the stock width or to some extent the thickness of the base and the offset from the receiver. I believe the base I have is standard thickness.

    I dropped the action into the stock and shot the rifle as described above to zero it. Worked perfectly. But in this particular case if you want to remove or install the mount with the action in the stock the stock must be relieved.
    This is the case with this stock and mount/base unit. It was not uncommon as noted in the msosinnagat.net sniper section.

    Some require inletting and some do not as noted. My 1942 PEM did not require any stock mods for the PEM mount. It is a more narrow stock. As I noted if I had a different more narrow pre war stock I would use that and make a new cut for the PEM base. But I have only late and post war stocks.. and no guarantee any stock will work. Though I think a measurement of stock width would answer that question.

    I'll decide to cut it or leave it. Not what I wanted but I can do the stock work.

    I have a re-snipered 1942 and it is not inletted., the mount clears the stock as noted also by capnduane on his 1939 PEM in his post above., he has one of each. Relieved/inletted and non.

    My 1942 Izhevsk PEM., stock uncut behind the base.., the mount slides off and on no problem.
    Last edited by AKBLUE; 03-26-2017 at 07:43 PM.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKBLUE View Post
    It depends on the stock width or to some extent the thickness of the base and the offset from the receiver. I believe the base I have is standard thickness.

    I dropped the action into the stock and shot the rifle as described above to zero it. Worked perfectly. But in this particular case if you want to remove or install the mount with the action in the stock the stock must be relieved.
    This is the case with this stock and mount/base unit. It was not uncommon as noted in the msosinnagat.net sniper section.

    Some require inletting and some do not as noted. My 1942 PEM did not require any stock mods for the PEM mount. It is a more narrow stock. As I noted if I had a different more narrow pre war stock I would use that and make a new cut for the PEM base. But I have only late and post war stocks.. and no guarantee any stock will work. Though I think a measurement of stock width would answer that question.

    I'll decide to cut it or leave it. Not what I wanted but I can do the stock work.

    I have a re-snipered 1942 and it is not inletted., the mount clears the stock as noted also by capnduane on his 1939 PEM in his post above., he has one of each. Relieved/inletted and non.

    My 1942 Izhevsk PEM., stock uncut behind the base.., the mount slides off and on no problem.
    Yes, this is consistent with conversations we have had over the years. Some need an inlet, some do not. Stock thickness and the thickness of the bases matter. It will vary.

    These PEM side mounts are fine rifles and were highly regarded by the units that used them wartime. Someone posted the field surveys. Dmitry repro mounts, scopes and bases are quite impressive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller Tyme View Post
    The stock on my Finn captured PEM isn't relieved for removing the scope mount. The scope slips off just fine.
    Yes. Most original PEMs do not have a stock modification. I even looked through all my pictures of war time pictures and could not find one rifle that had the modification. So I think it is rare to find it on original rifles. But post was re-snipering is a different story.

  11. #10
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    Default PEM clearance cut

    Here's one I grabbed off the net.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1513737[2251].jpg  


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    ^^^^^^^^^^ Yes.,like the original I posted from mosinngant.net., there are some that are relieved and some not. Of course in production they had the choice of hundreds of stocks to choose one with a profile that would be a good stock to mate with the action without the need for a cut etc.

    Another example is on the mosinnagant.net site here>>

    http://www.mosinnagant.net/sniper%20...nipertext1.asp

    I found a discussion here on the reproduction scopes. They mention the 180 (off axis) degree indexing hash mark on the turret etc. Also the answer to my question in this post etc. the index ring is non adjustable so I will add a new index mark at the rear of the turret.
    A somewhat good read for anyone contemplating a repro PEM/PE scope & mount etc.

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-repro-(china)
    Last edited by AKBLUE; 03-27-2017 at 10:57 AM.

  13. #12
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    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by capnduane View Post
    Here's one I grabbed off the net.
    How do we know that is a original rifle? Or that the stock is original? The one fuzzy picture doesn't give us a lot. I am not trying to come across as a jerk but I have studied PEM snipers a lot and have seen some people go to great lengths to fake them. I am sure that the Russian did relieve some stocks. But again, I couldn't find any war time pictures showing it and the small amount of original rifles that I have either seen in person or detailed pictures (and without a doubt had their original stocks), none had the relieve cut. I truly believe that originally very few needed it (or the rifles that did are long gone) and many we see today are done by collectors. I would guess that the ones that did receive it we earlier rifles.

    But I am totally open to seeing original war time pictures or detailed pictures of a original rifle showing it. I have seen some, but not very many. Again, when re-snipering a rifle, it makes no difference. I would most likely do it because 1. it looks cool and 2. it is probably needed to get the scope on without taking the scope off.

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    I assumed those couple shown in the mosinnagant.net links above are original PEM rifles. Could they be repro., reworked etc., dunno.

    No matter really. The stock and the mount tell the tale. They fit without stock mod or they do not.
    The base I have is the same as the original thickness AFAIK. So the rest is just how they fit to a stock.
    I used a pre-war screw escutcheon stock ha was on the rifle as purchased for the 1938 re-sniper.

    Whether the original stocks were specifically chosen so not to interfere with the mount or were hand contoured to fit vs a slot cut., also dunno.

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    Pictures of Zaitsev with his sidemount show a stock cut so the action had to be removed to slide off the scope.

    I have done both cuts on my rescoping of Tulas and found the "can't slide off" cut to look better.

  17. #16
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    Yes., I agree., the fortunate ones do not need the horizontal cut in the rear area of the stock. My 1942 was such and the scope slides off and on nicely..

    The 1938 is not so. I'm going to enjoy shooting it for a while and decide a some future time about any additional stock inletting.
    I spiffed up the trigger pull today. Hope to get back to shooting on Wednesday if we do not get too much rain.

    Next up is zeroing a couple more ex-PU's I re-scoped several years ago but really never spent much trigger time or logging their performance.
    I have some Czech silver tip, Serbian brass 54r, and some Hungarian heavy ball yellow tip to try in addition to the Russian 54r I normally shoot. Want to see if one like a particular round over another.

  18. #17
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    Hello,

    I think you all are missing the reason for the relief cut. the base was thicker in WWII like Fed and Dimitry mounts. Igor and Accumounts and all other made the bases thinner. I was told that the thick base is for TULA rifles and thinner was for Izhevsk rifles. this is why the 2 versions Ratnik will know more in depth info.

    later
    vaughn
    Tula 91/30 Ex-Snipers WANTED!!!!!!! See List Below
    Zeiss Type Any Date
    Walther Type Any Date
    1932 PE, Top Mount, Hex Receiver
    1933 PE, Top Mount, Hex Receiver
    1936 PE, Top Mount, Round Receiver
    1938 PE, Top Mount Siege Built
    1939 PE, Top Mount СП Marked
    1939 PE, Top Mount Siege Built
    1940 PE, Top Mount Siege Built
    1943 PE, Top Mount Siege Built

  19. #18
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    In the case of original PEMs with no relief cut on the stock, it is not required to remove the stock to take the scope mount off. The scope mount will clear the stock when slid off the base. This is only the case on post war ex-snipers. I am guessing because, as Vaughn99 mentioned, they don't have their original stocks and original bases (which are very rare). Here is my reasoning for these theories.

    Here are pictures of authentic PEM snipers with their original stocks (but not all have original bases). None have the relief cut.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	39 PEM (9).jpg 
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ID:	2086850Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	2086858Click image for larger version. 

Name:	39 PEM 3 (15).jpg 
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    Here are pictures of war time snipers. On none of them can I see a stock relief cut. Some are not very clear.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	PEM side Mount (10).jpg 
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ID:	2086914Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	2086906Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	2086898Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	2086890Click image for larger version. 

Name:	PEM side Mount (3).jpg 
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ID:	2086882Click image for larger version. 

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Name:	PEM side Mount (20).jpg 
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ID:	2086922

    I do have pictures of one of CH's rifles that is original and has a stock relief cut. So they do exist. But again, I believe this is not common and most we see today have been done by collectors.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1 (7).jpg 
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ID:	2086930

    Please keep in mind that I am only debating what was originally done at the Tula Factory from approximately 1938 to 1940. When it comes to ex-sniper that are being returned to sniper forum I say go for the relief cut if it is needed. Hope this helps.

  20. #19
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    Thank you vaughn99 & msniper19 for the pictures and response.

    I suppose it is also possible that the rear horizontal stock relief cut was not always made and the scope was not removable while the action was in the stock.
    Picture no. 4 in your 12 pic series appears to be one where the base sits below the stock profile. So it appears in the picture. Or is that one with the replacement base?

    I'll shoot he 1938 for awhile as it is and decide if I wan to cut the rear relief. No a big deal but interesting part of the rework and how he originalswere assembled.


  21. #20
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    Enjoying both PEM ex-snipers. Both are very nice shooters and the PEM mounts are great to get a good zero with minimal fuss.

    Top - 1938 ex-PEM Tula
    Bottom - 1942 ex-PEM Izhevsk





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    Nice looking rifle. That is a nice set, the first and last year the PEM was produced.

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    Very nice, AKBLUE!

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    Here is an example of a relief cut on what I believe to be a German captured PEM. Whether the relief cut was made by the Soviets or the Germans would be a difficult call.



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    Quote Originally Posted by martin08 View Post
    Here is an example of a relief cut on what I believe to be a German captured PEM. Whether the relief cut was made by the Soviets or the Germans would be a difficult call.


    Any more pics of the rifle?
    ***ASK ME HOW TO "ACCURIZE" YOUR MOSIN OR MAUSER AND MAKE IT MORE ACCURATE***
    ***LOOKING FOR "DMITRY" (Feldscher) AND "IGOR" PEM MOUNTS***
    ***LOOKING FOR "DMITRY" (Feldscher) DYNAMO "D2" GECO BASE, MOUNT, AND SCOPE***
    ***LOOKING FOR PE AND PEM SCOPES***
    ***LOOKING FOR ZF-39 ZEISS 4X ZIELVIER SCOPES***
    ***LOOKING FOR RUSSIAN CAPTURE K-98'S (43-44 BNZ AND CE 44)***
    ***LOOKING FOR COMPLETE DOUBLE CLAW OBJECTIVE MOUNT ZEISS/HENSOLDT SETS***

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    ^^ Interesting. I have seen another one or two with that type of relief cut. If I decide to inlet the stock I may go that route with less material removal needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raupleminze View Post
    Any more pics of the rifle?
    Yes. I believe you have seen this one before. Plenty of pics in the following link.

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...ook-and-a-Talk

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