A Commercial [Military Competition] MK IV
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Thread: A Commercial [Military Competition] MK IV

  1. #1
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    Default A Commercial [Military Competition] MK IV

    This rifle appears to have been well cared for over the years. It came with the sight protectors still on it. Does anyone know if there are sales records for Jeffery & Co? It would be nice to pull together a little history of this rifle.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20160930_071919.jpg   m.jpg   ATT00001.jpg   20160930_072458.jpg  

  2. #2
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    Very nice find. I'm pretty sure Jeffrey was not a gunmaker, but rather a retailer, though he did hold patents for various accessories & developed a number of proprietary cartridges. Here's some further info I found on the 'net:

    William Jackman Jeffery may have started his career in the gun trade as a salesman for Cogswell & Harrison in the late 1880s. In addition, he also worked for P. Webley & Son, but he set up on his own account in 1887 at 60 Queen Victoria Street, in the City of London. In 1891 the business became known as W.J. Jeffery & Co.

    Jeffery was interested in rifles and was granted several patents for shooting accessories, including a bore mirror, a telescopic sight and a sight protector. He also developed a number of proprietary rifle cartridges which bear his name. He is best remembered for the mighty .600 nitro express but also designed the .450 No. 2, the .404 Jeffery, the .433 rimless and flanged cartridges, the .333, .280 and .255 rook rifle.

    The .333 cartridge proved effective in the early months of World War I by defeating the steel mantlet plates used in the trenches by German snipers.

    W. J. Jeffery died in 1907 and the firm was taken over by his brother Charles, who died in 1920. His nephew, F. Jeffery Pierce, took over and in 1927 the firm moved to Golden Square, where it remained until 1955. It was bought in 1957 by Westley Richards and then by Holland & Holland in 1959.

    So, according to the business address on your rifle, it seems it was made in 1891 at the earliest.....which does seem a little late for a Martini intended for military-style competition (as the Lee Enfield was the service rifle by then), but perhaps not. My Westley Richards ZAR was made in 1898, & there were a number of contracts for .577/.450 M-Hs into the early 20th century so the rifle/caliber were not totally obsolete. Both Westley Richards and Holland & Holland are still in business, so they could have access to Jeffrey's records.

  3. #3
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    First thought, where did you get that?

    I have limited references on Jeffery. The one volume I do have is Wal Winfer's British Singles Shot Rifles, Jeffery and the Trade Farquharson's.

    Something caught my eye and I went through the entire book looking at the Circle Logo. There are 15-20 or so different photos of rifles with this logo. On the rifle posted above, I noticed a number of discrepancies. The Jeffery logo consists of a belt with Jeffery name and Address. There is a number of Address variations. There are couple of different belts style.

    Here are the discrepancies I noted.

    No belt is in the style or pattern of the above gun. The details on the belt above are of low quality. The markings on the known examples are professional, artistic, lines are straight and parallel. No belt holes appear to have been made with a round nose pinch, those belts that do have holes appear engraved-cut, not stamped

    The Address line does not match any others in Winfer's reference. There are several different versions, but none like this one.

    The quality of engraving is not up to the quality of those in Winfer. The circles making up the belt in Winfer are perfect circles cut a to a uniform depth. These on this gun are not.

    The name engraving in the Winfer book is perfectly centered and parallel to the arc of the lines of the belt. The letters in the gun above are not. Some letters in the one above are even tilted.

    The last thing and the thing that jumped out at me is the lettering itself. It is the wrong font. None of the logos in Winfer have this font, in fact those in Winfer, all have the same font. The font in the logo on the gun posted above appears to be the type that we have seen a number of times on counterfeit guns coming out of Afghanistan. The letters are a modern font produced on possibly on CNC milling machines, laser engraver or sand blaster.

    I could be wrong, but really don't think I am. The Accessory's look real, but I believe the Jeffery mark is counterfeit. I would like to be wrong, but I don't think I am.

    Are there any other markings on the gun, particularly under the fore end wood.
    Last edited by DoubleD; 03-30-2017 at 02:42 PM.
    Douglas

    "And don't forget. That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it." Malcolm Cobb, The Martini Henry Note-book
    *********
    To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com

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    The barrel is marked with the same information as the side. I can see about some images of the barrel. The rifle came from the estate of an advanced collector of British single shot rifles. He knew more about these things than anyone I have ever known and had nothing but the best in his collection. Nothing was for sale during his lifetime. It's hard to imagine that he would have a MH with fake markings.

  6. #5
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    Here is a real logo.



    Here is the one from above.




    You can debate lot of points. But the one stand out point is the letter font. All the Jeffery logo in Winfer use the same letter font.

    I am relying only on Winfer to come to my conclusion. I could be dead wrong. You need to post this over on British Militaria. There are some fellows over there who are far more knowledgeable than me. http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/ Those people will know.

    The markings I am referring to are not just the commercial maker make, those are need also, but all the proof marks, amd particularly those u nder the wood.

    If you go to BMF and have probelms posting pictures, I can help you with that.
    Last edited by DoubleD; 03-30-2017 at 11:32 PM.
    Douglas

    "And don't forget. That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it." Malcolm Cobb, The Martini Henry Note-book
    *********
    To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com

  7. #6
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    I did some more digging in my library this morning. I came up with two additional references. Jonathan Kirton's The British Falling Block Rifle and Nigel Brown's British Gun Makers.

    Brown has a general list of serial numbers showing approximate years the number was used. There is no information on what gun the number was applied to. This serial number is not on that list.

    Kirton has a number of photo's of guns bearing the logo, but they appear to be the same photo's used in Winfer. So nothing new there.

    Kirton does have serial number list compiled from Jeffery ledgers and known specimens. Serial number 3821 is not on the list. What that means is, that serial 3821 is not on the list, nothing more. Records were not all complete and the photo's in the two references I used show serial numbers not on the list. The 3800 block of number of numbers is not complete, with 31 guns listed. The list starts at Serial number 1762 for Jeffery-Sharp. The Jeffry Sharp were Winchester Highwall's. Not all guns are described on the list.

    Winfer makes reference to a Jeffrey 577/450 Martini serial number 1523. Another Martini serial number 1582 is reported from Queen Victoria St. It is described as a 577/450 with pistol grip stock and full ribbed barrel and bears Francotte's trademark AF .

    This thing about the font is the most telling for me.

    This Jeffery Sharp has the Queen Victoria St. address. This address is the earliest address used. Later address was 13 King St. St. James.



    If this logo was updated and the font was changed to reflect a more modern font, why did the later logo's not have this updated logo. Although this picture from Winfer is not very clear, you can see that St. James address logo bears the font style used by the original Victoria street address.



    Also note the belt holes are circles, not round nosed punch marks.
    Last edited by DoubleD; 03-31-2017 at 10:46 AM.
    Douglas

    "And don't forget. That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it." Malcolm Cobb, The Martini Henry Note-book
    *********
    To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com

  8. #7
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    If I was young and knew very little about antique firearms the above comments might befuddle me into thinking my fine antique Jeffery was a fake. Then in a state of disappointment I might sell the ďdarn fakeĒ to a knowledgeable collector for a fraction of the true value. Happily, after collecting and restoring antique arms and timepieces for many decades I am not a novice. I have a good eye and a system for evaluation.

    Thatís take a look at the evaluation process, some of which is similar for both firearms and timepieces:

    The engraving: The images of the logo on other guns copied from books are not all that clear, but what is clear enough is that each engraving is different from the others. Some of the differences are slight and some are more noticeable. This is to be expected, given that some guns have different addresses on them and higher or lower serial numbers they were clearly done at different times. Some of the details of the logo engraving on my rifle are the same as those pictured in your books, like the belt buckle. Many of the logos were engraved many years apart.

    In the 1890ís and early 1900ís British retail establishments and gun makers often farmed out such things as engraving to more than one craftsman. Even the same engraver might change his style slightly over the years. I donít understand your myopic focus upon fonts. This was not done on a computer printer or a typewriter. We are talking about hand engraving here. The fonts an engraver chose to use back then were highly subjective. Though there were early pantographs in use back then when one of the soft brass dies became worn or damaged there was no guarantee that a replacement set would be like the old one because they were made by hand. The engraver might have to change the size and style to conform to the space at hand on the rifle.

    The engraved logo on my rifle is in fact of good quality. It is deep, properly laid out and attractively executed. The engraver clearly had a strong and steady hand. Because you donít own any of the guns in your books itís impossible to see good images of those engravings to compare them to the higher resolution image I posted. The quality of the engraving is important for evaluating an antique and this logo is good quality consistent and similar to the others.

    Then there is the quality of the rifle. I have handled modern and antique watches and guns with false names placed on them. Unscrupulous persons past and present have engaged in such practices for a long time. In my evaluations I first look to the quality of the item. Is it up to standard or not? For example I was asked to repair a fake Rolex watch by a good friend a few years back. It had a self winding mechanism (like the real thing) but upon closer examination the fake Rolex had a cheap Shenzhen self winding movement built with many shortcuts. There were other shortcomings as well. The point is, it was made cheap to make a fast buck. Fakes are of fair to poor quality thatís always been the economy of fraud.

    Now if this rifle was a fake Jefferey I would definitely expect cheap wood, maybe beach with an old dark varnish stain applied to make it look like walnut. However, what we have here is a high quality figured walnut stock. After wiping it down with a little furniture polish there is splendid fire in the wood grain as one would expect on the finest quality British guns and rifles. The fit of this top quality walnut stock to the action and butt plate is flawless.

    On a fake I would expect various shortcuts in the fit, finish and quality of the components. For this rifle even the butt plate is extra nice. It is checkered with color case hardening. I took a picture of it next to a military MKI checkered butt plate for comparison with the MKI rifle on the left.

    As indicated by the attached images the other parts are equally excellent in fit finish and quality. Not what one would find on a fake.

    To sum it up, this rifle is of high quality materials and workmanship. If you could go back in time and walk into W. Jefferyís shop this is exactly the high quality rifle you would expect to be offered. A fine burled walnut stock with fire in the grain. The fake would be offered under dubious circumstances maybe at a train station on an over cast day so you could not see the low quality of the details. Itís always in the details.

    I hope the above as well as the attached images will clear up any misunderstanding regarding the authenticity of this fine rifle. More importantly I hope I have been able to provide some guidelines to other collectors about how you can responsibly differentiate a fake from the real thing.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20170331_093337.jpg   20170331_093841.jpg   20170331_092804.jpg   20170331_092840.jpg   20170331_092921.jpg  

  9. #8
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    You do indeed have a beautiful rifle there. Finely made and not a dressed up military gun as it bears commercial proofs. This rifle is no ordinary Martini, it extraordinary.

    What I have laid out above is my opinion. It is heavily focused on a conflict of sans serif font versus serif font. I support my opinion with documentation.

    It is my opinion, nothing more, and as they say, it is worth what you have paid for it.

    I have suggested you post this over on British Militaria and get additional opinions from folks far more knowledgeable than me. That recommendation still stands.

    You may have a very unique rifle and I would dearly love to be wrong.

    Please keep us advised as to what you learn.
    Douglas

    "And don't forget. That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it." Malcolm Cobb, The Martini Henry Note-book
    *********
    To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com

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    Thank you for your free un-requested critique of my rifle. I detect some slight back peddling in response to the additional images and observations, above. However, over on the British Militaria Forum you redoubled your attack before there were very many comments about this rifle. (Serif vs. sans serif fonts on 125 year old engraving?) Not that itís all that important but as previously noted, the holes for the belt are in fact engraved little circles, not stamppings. But, itís only an opinion, and I know you hope you are wrong.

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    When you post here you invite the comments.

    You may have a very uniquely marked Jeffery rifle. Right now I can find nothing to support that. Everything I find contradicts that.

    I can find no documentation to support your belief. I can however find documentation to contradict your claim and have provide it.

    On the other hand you have provided nothing, no evidence what so ever to legitimize the assertion, yet stand by it. That is myopia.

    I on the other hand suffer the title, pedantic. But not so much so that I would not welcome being proved wrong. You certainly have not done that.
    Douglas

    "And don't forget. That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it." Malcolm Cobb, The Martini Henry Note-book
    *********
    To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com

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    I note the small dot between the 8 and D,geometric centre of the inscription.Regards John.

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    I think the rifle & markings are all legitimate but, speaking as a former industrial engraver, feel that the trademark was engraved using a pantograph machine, with some hand shading added later. We know by the address on the rifle that it was made no earlier than 1891, so the benefit of using semi-skilled labour & machine to do the engraving may have been employed, rather than the more time consuming & expensive hand gravers.

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    Its called "gilding the lilly".The contentious dots are a dead giveaway.A too large cutter has been used resulting in the centres being cut away.The letter font used is more suited to plastic signs.The shading is a shocker.Done by a rank beginner,overconfident in their own abilities,and foolish enough to deface a very nice gun.Regards John.

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    How do you explain away the fact that each of the above Jeffery engravings is different from the others? Even though the images posted are of poor quality it is clear that some of the Jeffery logos are better than others and certainly very different from each other.

    As to quality, no one has posted good enough images of other Jeffery engravings from which to make a valid comparison.

    Further, how do you account for the fact that the engraving was done before the gun was blued? It has aged consistently with the finish of the rifle. It's not new. The collector who had it before me had it for a very long time.

    An appropriate response to the above points would be more welcome than the defensiveness and justifications I have been reading so far. But, what the heck, itís only an opinion.

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    How's it shoot...hopefully as good as it looks...real or not is money....
    Shooting accuracy the honey!

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    The variations in the address and the logo detail are simply the product of change of time, location and engravers, and is not unusual.

    Jeffery first worked at 60 Queen St. In 1887 with P. Webley and Sons. He had a disagreement with Webley and since Jeffery held the lease on the address, Webley had to leave. For a while the business was known as Jeffrey and Davis. In 1891, the business name became WJ Jeffery & Co and remain that for the rest of its existence. In 1898, additional premises were acquired at 13 King St. In 1900 workshops at 1 Rose and Crown Yard, St. James were added. In 1914 Jeffery moved to 26 Bury St and closed down the Queen Victoria St and King St. premises. In 1927, the Bury St. business was closed and moved to 9 Golden Sq. where it remained until 1955. It then moved to 5b Pall Mall where is was bought up by Westley Richards and 1959 merged with Holland and Holland at 13 Bruton St. (paraphrased from The British Gunmakers Volume One-London, Nigel Brown 2004)

    British Single Shot Rifles Volume 3 Jeffery by Wal Winfer 1999 has photos of 14 guns bearing the circle logo. Winferís Volume 8 copyright 2009 has an additional photo of a Francotte Martini with the belt logo no pantograph. The British Falling Block Breech Loading Rifle from 1865, Jonathan Kirton, (Second Edition 1997 has number of pictures that are shared with Winfer, plus one additional. These rifles span from 1887 to the early 1920ís about 40 years. There is not one single example of a machine engraved (pantograph-thank you Martyn) Jeffery logo. All lettering is serif.

    Neil Aspinshaw has posted a picture of a MK IV Martini on BMF. That Logo also is serif font.

    All of the Jeffery logoís in the documented rifles are serif font. None of the documented Jeffery logos are sans serif. While that may seem to be a minor detail, it in fact is not.

    All the documented Jefferyís I found are hand engraved, except one-maybe. Neil Apinshawís rifle may be roll stamped, but none are machine engraved. I have asked Neil when he returns from his business trip if he can provide close detailed pictures of his markings

    While the photos from the books are not as sharp as the photo posted, details such as font and marking style are identifiable. Beyond the number none of the rest of the letters on this Mk IV are in the style used in the documented examples.

    I thought I would Illustrate what I mean about the quality of this marking.

    Wavy erratic lines and over runs.



    Variable non-uniform line depth-look at the variation in the circle lines.


    Erratic lines that do not flow our have proper continuity, and over run. This belt line just does not extend and flow to its mate on the other side of the overlap. It takes an unsightly jag as it over runs. Look at the detail line below the slight fold or crease in the belt. The fold is arced. the lines are straight.





    One last comparison. Concentrically.





    Now Compare these two documented rifles.



    Not how the details line in the roll of the belt are also rolled, giving the illusion of, well a roll. On the MK IV markings the belt has a roll but the detail line are straight.



    The blue lines of course are concentric circle graphics I added to make the comparison.

    Even though these two are scans of pictures in books the details are clear.

    Sorry gents for this, I was feeling a bit pedantic again.
    Douglas

    "And don't forget. That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it." Malcolm Cobb, The Martini Henry Note-book
    *********
    To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com

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    "The variations in the address and the logo detail are simply the product of change of time, location and engravers, and is not unusual." Thank you. At least you are willing to concede one of my points.

    Serif vs. sanserif? Are you willing to state that all sanserif engravings on British weapons are fake? Are you saying that no engravers to the firearms trade in 1890's Birmingham or London engraved sanserif letters? This is a really thin argument.

    The quality of engraving argument is trivial. And, I could do the same thing. For example, look at the belt buckle engravings within the images in your books, the ones you claim to be genuine and of high quality? - I think my 8 year old granddaughter could draw a more authentic looking belt buckle. And what's with that silly triangle which is supposed to be the belt buckle tongue. Missed lines and minor errors? Let me at them with high resolution! The quality critique is grasping at straws. For reasons I will discuss more fully comparing the logo engravings of different companies amounts to a comparison of apples to oranges.

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    Zulu Neil on the British Militaria Forum posted images and information about his rare Jeffery MK IV rifle some years ago. It looks like my rifle. He also noted that several more rifles like his and within the same serial number block exist and that many of them appear to have gone to S. Africa. Zulu Neilís rifle is of the same configuration as mine and with the same London street address as my rifle. In all fairness, the image is not as good as the one I posted and the serial number of his rifle is over one thousand lower than mine. The serial number scheme of a large scale British retail establishment is at best an educated guess.

    Zulu Neilís rifle has the Jeffery Co serial number of 2668. The ledger which Zulu Neil posted an image of lists rifles by number and shows the wholesale price Jeffery purchased Zulu Neilís No. 2668 in 1894 from Thomas Turner who manufactured it and a number of other rifles of the same configuration for Jeffery. The date and retail price Zulu Neilís rifle was sold by Jeffery Co. is also listed in the Jeffery ledger.

    Given that the Jeffery Co ledger lists the serial number when purchased and that the logo and number were not engraved over the factory blue it is clear that Jeffery and Co. ordered the rifles with logo and number engraved by the manufacturer prior to delivery, which is in keeping with industry practices.

    With each manufacturer tasked with engraving the Jeffery Co. logo on the rifles they produced on contract for Jeffery there would naturally be variations in the engraving by manufacturer as well as by the individual engraver. This further illustrates the fallacy of comparing the logo engraved upon various dropping block rifles made by someone else to the logo on rifles made at other times by a different manufacturer years apart. In other words, a Thomas Turner logo must be compared with other Thomas Turner logos. If not then you are comparing apples to oranges.

    I posted a request for Zulu Neil regarding the Jeffery Co. ledger book for my serial number but he has not responded. A sharper image of Zulu Neilís rifle might also help but since our rifles are numbered 1153 apart and this factory no doubt employed a number of engravers there still might be some slight variations in the engraving. And it only takes the slightest variation for Double D to pounce upon.

    The old Jeffery company ledger would be most welcome all the same. At least it would confirm who Jeffery Co. bought my rifle from and when it was sold and how much it sold for, if not to whom.

  20. #19
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    Neil is away on Business and he has said he will post something when he returns. The one picture Neil posted of his gun shows serif font. It also appears to be roll stamped.

    You gun has a serif font serial number and sans serif lettering.

    No other documented Jeffery has a sans serif font.
    Douglas

    "And don't forget. That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it." Malcolm Cobb, The Martini Henry Note-book
    *********
    To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com

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    I look forward to learning more about my Jeffery MK IV. I hope Zulu Neil can also help out with the Jeffery records.

    The engraving will always have trivial variations the result of different engravers. After looking at all those different logos artistic licence is the only established fact

    The most important evidence is the quality of the rifle itself.

    The documented evidence that Jeffery sold other rifles of the same type and configuration within eleven hundred of this rifles serial number should have closed the argument.

    The fake logo argument can only stand if the rifle is of low quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 45Auto View Post
    The fake logo argument can only stand if the rifle is of low quality.
    I've been reluctant to wade into this one because my knowledge of Brit logos is shallow compared to Douglas and many others. However for the sake of others that read these posts, I must strongly point out that when it comes to later day embellishments, the exact opposite is true. High quality arms are the only ones that are worth the time and money to embellish and is rampant (pun intended) among Colt and Winchester collectibles of which I am very familiar owing to the household I grew up in. For these the quality of engraving and the tools used are often debated literally under a microscope. In that realm, the higher the quality of the basic arm the higher the suspicion of later day embellishment.
    Rich in West Virginia, savoring life one cartridge at a time.

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    Interesting Rich, I have alot of experience with antique American arms. But mixing apples and oranges again. This is no single action army Colt or early Winchester '66. The only fake Martini Henry's I know of are low quality arms or reworked military. That's not what we have here. Also, the engraving is under the original finish.

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    In order to get outside the 'friend zone' I decided to contact noted author Ian Skennerton for an evaluation of my Jeffery MK IV. I told Ian about the serif vs. sanserif argument and sent him the same high resolution images as posted here. After reviewing the above images this is what Ian Skennerton had to say about my Jeffery MK IV:

    "The Jeffery serial no. uses a serif font and from the quality of engraving, I have no doubt that yours is original.

    I have observed variation in Jeffery logo engravings, so I would not worry about it.

    They all could not have been done at the same time by the same engraver!

    Consider the other factors... Commercial proof Mk IV, all the markings I can see (some out of focus) are correct.
    I have not seen any other commercial Mk IV M.H. rifles unmarked without the maker or retailers name.

    So if yours is a 'fake', what was it? Definitely not a refinished military Mk IV.

    I regard your rifle as being original, I cannot see any indicator for the rifle being re-finished as the stamps are nice and clear, no rounded edges.

    Cheers, Ian"

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    As I plainly said, I'm not wading in on the authenticity of this particular logo, but rather your blanket statement that the high quality of the arm precludes the possibility of fakery. Embellishments on high end firearms is hardly the exclusive purview of American arms. I'm not dragging the crude products of the Khyber Pass in on this, or the products of Bubba on military arms, I'm talking high end embellishments added to authentic....but now not factory original....commercial high end arms. If you wish to believe such don't exist, that is your choice. The flat earth is still popular in some circles. However talk to any major auction house dealing in antique arms and they'll disabuse you of that in a hurry. The key factor when moving above the common place collection is buyer beware. The big money in fakes is in the truly high end items and I'm unaware of any aspect of collecting or nationality involved that this isn't true. The arms we collect here are well past the century mark and most often have gone through many many hands before arriving at ours. What someone in an earlier age may or may not have done depends on their character and motive.....not on nationality.
    Last edited by richardwv; 04-20-2017 at 11:30 AM.
    Rich in West Virginia, savoring life one cartridge at a time.

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    Maybe it would help if you went back and took another look at my short reply to your comment. Try not to read anything into it other than what I wrote. And please try not to attribute beliefs to me that I don't have.

    I started this thread looking for some info on Jeffery Co. records for what I think is a really nice rifle. But instead of friendly help I found myself having to defend the authenticity of my Jeffery MK IV (which I have done thanks to Ian Skennerton). Now a sarcastic blast.... including.... "The flat earth is still popular in some circles." -?-

  27. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Spokane WA, USA
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    .45 Auto, you have received some "friendly help" (see posts #2 & #12 for starters). However, you also seem to be reading things into what some others have said.....I don't think anyone has questioned the quality of the rifle, that's aspect is self-evident, but some have suggested that it may have been 'enhanced' with some additional markings to make it more attractive. As I said earlier, personally I don't think the trademark logo is a recent addition, just of a bit lower quality due to it been done with a machine (pantograph) rather than hand engraved, which gives it a more austere look. I haven't seen any other markings on your rifle other than the London Proof House stamps, but is there any other engraved marks (ie. address on barrel)?

  28. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    1,677

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    X-Ring, I do thank those, such as yourself, who made helpful comments. I like gunboards because it's usually a very friendly place. The negative comments may have been restricted to the company logo but such allegations made by a forum moderator can have a very serious impact upon the value of the rifle to serious collectors. It has a Jeffery Co. serial number and people can look this thread up. As to other markings: At first I thought this rifle was marked with the company name on the barrel and action but after I unpacked the rifle for another look I discovered that I had confused this rifle with others, such as the W.W. Greener M-H MK II which has barrel and action markings, as seen in one of my other posts. Your post that the logo might have been made on a machine is interesting and not at all negative.

  29. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Under the big sky, in the shadow of the Sweetgrass Hills
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    3,419

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    I think I have been very diligent in offering up what I call discrepancies about this rifle. I have been very careful about documenting my opinion. No hearsay, or "I was told stuff".

    I recognize you may not be pleased with what I have to say. I don't know how much you paid for the rifle, but in fact if someone was questioning the legitimacy of my purchase I certainly would not feel pleased. I am sorry for that.

    This debate can go on for ever. I could be very wrong. In fact, I hope I am.

    Given the circumstances your responses are not unexpected. But be careful. There are limits. Please remain polite, do not drift off into personal attacks.

    What you need at this point is the opinion of a creditable and knowledgeable collector of Jeffery Arms. I would suggest you contact Jonathan Kirton at http://www.gunandswordcollector.com/...s/contact.html. This the link to Mowbray Publishing, who published Jonathan's book. Write to Janathan care of Mowbray. Jonathan does occasionally show up on BMF, that is why I suggested you post over there. If Jonathan can't help you he should be able to refer you, if you ask. You might also contact J.V. Puleo at Mowbray he may be able to refer you some one who can authenticate this rifle.

    You might also acquire a copy of Wal Winfer's Volume on Jeffery single shots. In the front is a list of contributors who are also knowledgeable collectors of Jeffery's. Those would be good contacts.

    Please what ever answer you get from those sources, share here. It will establish the bona fides when some one queries the Internet and this topic comes up.

    The rifle and serial number are not questioned at all. Should the number come up on Neil's list, then that is a good. It does not establish this as a Jeffery, but should help. Finding the serial number on the list does not validate the logo. You need those experts to do that.

    Good luck.
    Douglas

    "And don't forget. That isn't your Martini you have. It belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone. Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it." Malcolm Cobb, The Martini Henry Note-book
    *********
    To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com

  30. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,677

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    Ian Skennerton's evaluation is more than sufficient. That's not to say other collectors would not have interesting info to share, but at this point the validity of the logo is settled.

  31. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    668

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    Is it possible that original engravings have been "freshened" during some previous restoration?

  32. #31
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    Dec 1969
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterChief View Post
    Is it possible that original engravings have been "freshened" during some previous restoration?
    As noted by Ian the rifle has not been refinished.

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