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09-10-2007, 09:11 AM #1
2.5" shotshell sources and chamber length gauging2.5" shotshell sourcePrinted from: Gunboards
Topic URL: http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=240623
Printed on: 09/10/2007Topic:
Topic author: kirkp
Subject: 2.5" shotshell source
Posted on: 08/07/2007 8:52:44 PM
I was recently looking for other sources of 2.5" (65 mm) shotshells and came across the Pensylvania company "Classic Shotshell Company, Inc./RST Ltd.". I thought I would pass along the website (http://www.rstshells.com/) for those of you that are on the lookout for 2.5" (65 mm) shells for that prized SxS husqvarna. I have personally not used shells from this company yet, so I can't give a first hand experience with the product, but it looks promising. If anyone has used these shotshells before, I would love a report.
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 08/07/2007 10:44:00 PM
Have never used the RST shotshells because I have always loaded my own. However, many of my shooting friends do use them and speak highly of them. Most of the RST shotshells are supposedly loaded to the lower pressures and lesser shot weighs that the Husqvarnas were designed and proofed for (CIP, NOT the higher pressure USA SAAMI).
NiklasReply author: MPE
Replied on: 08/08/2007 09:40:13 AM
I too have heard very good things about the RST shells. I have used the Polywad Vintagers in my Husqvarnas. see http://www.polywad-shotgun-shells.com/ They are 2.5" and also lower pressure (less than 7500 psi i think). The guys at Polywad answer questiions quickly and ship right away. Give them a call.
<><Reply author: Pettson
Replied on: 08/08/2007 7:32:43 PM
I don't know if you can get British cartridges over there, but both Hull and Eley have a good assortment of 2,5" cartridges.
Here in Sweden, we are blessed with still having Gyttorp around, making their fine 12 gauge "Pheasant" cartridge, sporting both a sensible charge of 1 oz of lead shot, paper hull and fibre wad.
Gyttorp has just recently, following their merge, reworked their entire line of old school packaging. By the looks of it, I wouldn't be surprised if their aiming for the expot market, since the new style is very "international".
Check it out at www.gyttorp.se
PettsonReply author: kirkp
Replied on: 08/08/2007 10:56:27 PM
Thanks for the information on RST and the additional shotshell sources. I will certainly look into all of them with great anticipation for bird season.
Kirkp© 2000-2006 Gunboards
09-11-2007, 04:13 AM #22.5 inch Shotshells for Older HVAPrinted from: Gunboards
Topic URL: http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=216181
Printed on: 09/11/2007Topic:
Topic author: kriggevaer
Subject: 2.5 inch Shotshells for Older HVA
Posted on: 03/13/2007 4:27:26 PM
I just bought a Danish over/under shotgun and was looking around for 2.5" shotshell ammo and hulls. I stumbled on this over at Graf & Son and thought it looked interesting. Don't know a thing about reloading shotgun shells, but thought brass might be the ticket.
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 03/13/2007 5:51:54 PM
Been loading 16X65 for decades, both with older Fiocchi 65 mm hulls and with others shortened to 65 mm. Lots less fuss than loading brass hulls. Ditto for 12X65. I never have 65 or 67 mm chambers lengthened and shoot very little 70 mm factory ammo. What 70 mm ammo I do shoot is usually to get hulls for reloading.
Also, check Remington Black Promo hulls (at least those sold in USA). All I have seen are 67 mm, even though marked 70. Load them normally and shoot then in all my 16X65s. Never had any problem finding 65 or 67 mm ammo, although sometimes have to order it.
One really does not need a loading tool specifically for 65 or 67 mm hulls, just load them on normal 70 mm press and put overshot card wad in before crimping. The card wad, or most any other little peice of strong paper or thin cardboard, will cover the hole in star crimp that results from hull being shorter than previously, keeping the shot from falling out, one pellet at a time. This crimps are often called "hartin" crimps, in honor of fellow that wrote lots about them many years ago.
NiklasReply author: allanschisel
Replied on: 03/13/2007 6:59:46 PM
Here are places that sell 2.5" shotshells:
Allan SchiselReply author: Ordtech
Replied on: 03/13/2007 7:45:43 PM
We had a couple of threads on this.
Do a search for "Polywad" and they show up. There are links to data.
Hodgdon has 2.5" loads for 12 gauge Winchester shells. IMR has some under "Cowboy" loads.
Allen Schissel has just about every US source of loaded shells listed.
I've got a flat of 250 Polywad Vintagers that I plan to reload. They have Fiocci hulls. Pattern well and are mild - they break clays.
Brass shells are pretty easy. If you keep loads light you don't need to resize. You didn't state the gauge. You can find loads by googleing "cowboy loads", search the powder manufacturers. Basically you just powder, nitro-wad, buffer-wad, shot, overshot card. Then "liquid glass", white school glue, gluegun, some even use caulking, to glue the overshot card to the brass. The glue holds it for handling but goes bye bye when you shoot. Cowboy Action Shooters are doing it every weekend. Do a search for Cowboy "x" gauge brass data.
What brand shotgun and do you have pictures? I've sort of looked for one for Sporting Clays.
Hope this helps.
DennisReply author: kriggevaer
Replied on: 03/13/2007 8:02:19 PM
Mange Tak everyone - my education has been furthered greatly. The shotgun is in the midst of shipping at this moment, so I hope to get it late this week, or early next. It is a Schultz & Larsen over/under, 12 gauge, made in 1943-44. Not many of them in the world. It was designed by Uffe Schultz-Larsen, son of Neils, grandson of Hans Schultz. I'll post photos when it arrives.Reply author: Ordtech
Replied on: 03/13/2007 9:06:40 PM
With 12 guage you can get 1/4" brass adapters from Midway or
I just lowered a used 16 gauge MEC 600 shaft one bolt hole into the base for 2.5". It actually dropped 5/8" but it works because you can adjust all the dies.
DReply author: kriggevaer
Replied on: 03/13/2007 9:13:31 PM
Thanks for the tip Ord'. I'm going to take Niklas' advice too. Once fired hulls are plentiful and cheap out my way.Reply author: Ordtech
Replied on: 03/17/2007 02:58:53 AM
RCBS has brass shotshell dies for a single stage press.
If you do load black powder in brass cases take a jar of soapy water to throw them in before you leave the range. They stain and corrode pretty bad if you don't. I use purple degreaser you get in a gallon jug. Some use dish soap or Lestoil. Whatever detergent you like. I clean the barrels with hot water and the same solution - cheaper than the store bought stuff and works like the olden days. Main thing is plenty of hot water and then oil to prevent rust.
Also, petroleum based oils turn black soot into a hard crust. The extractor can get pretty sticky with regular oils. Ballistol is hyped, but it does work. So does mineral oil.
And a dollop of Crisco on top of the shot keeps the soot soft for me. Not too much, we're not baking cookies!.
DReply author: kriggevaer
Replied on: 03/17/2007 10:30:47 AM
Thanks Ordtech - the RCBS tip is going to get looked into for sure. It would be interesting to load up some in black powder. It is taking forever for the shotgun to get here, but I'm hoping Monday or Tuesday.© 2000-2006 Gunboards
09-19-2007, 12:51 PM #3Shotgun Chamber LengthPrinted from: Gunboards
Topic URL: http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=223652
Printed on: 09/19/2007Topic:
Topic author: kriggevaer
Subject: Shotgun Chamber Length
Posted on: 04/24/2007 12:28:12 AM
Well, after doing some more research on the Schultz & Larsen over/under shotgun I recently acquired I discovered some of these shotguns were made with 2 3/4"/70mm and 3"/76mm chambers and realized that my assumption that my gun had 65mm chambers was not grounded in accurate measurements. So, I went to the Brownells catalog and sure enough, I found a simple easy to use chamber gauge. These gauges are known as Walker gauges, after the inventor. The 12 bore gauge measures, 2 3/4", 3", and 3 1/2" chambers. I cleaned the chambers thoroughly and inserted the gauge and discovered my gun has 2 3/4" chambers.
According to the instructions that came with the Walker Gauge, simply seeing what length shell will fit into a given chamber is an inaccurate and possibly dangerous practice. The problem comes from the older chambers ending in short forcing cones. The short forcing cones were intended to be used for the old roll crimp - overshot wad shotgun shells. Use of the modern star crimp shells in a short forcing cone increases chamber pressures, sometimes to dangerous levels. At the least, it will shoot the action loose and cause undue stress on internal parts. So, if you collect the older HVA shotguns a modest investment in a Walker Gauge of the appropriate bore can ease your mind and avoid possible damage to you or the gun.Replies:
Reply author: Ken
Replied on: 04/24/2007 05:07:45 AM
Chamber length is only one part of selecting the proper ammo. You also need to know to what pressure level the sells are loaded and approx when your gun was made. Some of the modern "promo" shells (dove & quail or duck & pheasant) are often loaded to 14,000 psi so that they will function through every semi-auto ever made. These shells are far to hot for double guns made before WW2 when guns were designed for shells that were loaded to half that pressure (regardless of chamber length). There is little risk of the gun coming suddenly apart but it will beat them to death over time so that the barrels are loose and off face from the action.
Some recent testing has shown that the shell pressure can be more important than chamber length.
Steel shot can also destroy older guns that have barrels made of softer steel with tighter chokes.
Here is a good place to look and ask about info on the classic guns.
Reply author: kriggevaer
Replied on: 04/24/2007 07:34:58 AM
Thanks for the tip Ken. I'm just getting into the shotgun side of collecting. After examining and handling some very fine HVA double guns (Thanks Steve) I am very impressed with the very high level of craftsmanship that goes into making a top grade double gun. It is tragic that the older generation of Swedish gun crafters is too quickly disappearing and that there are very few young ones to take their place.
You are absolutely on track with the shotshell pressure situation. I had not realized there was such a wide array of pressure ratings, particularly with the promo rounds.Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 04/24/2007 10:38:52 AM
The whole business of which shotshells to shoot in older doubles and OUs is both more complex and simpler than indicated in above posts, speaking as someone that has been shooting almostly exclusively older Swedish and German doubles for about 3 decades.
For example, I NEVER lenghten the 65 mm chambers or the nice, short forcing cones of older Husqvarna or 67 mm chambers and equally nice, short forcing cones of older Sauer and Merkel guns. I do use modern shotshell hulls with star crimps, BUT, I make sure that the hulls are no longer than 67 mm. I also do not shoot loads that have higher chamber pressures than the guns were proofed for, which means under 10.000 psi, generally under 9.000 psi, for nearly all of those guns. Typically, I get nice, sometimes excellently even, patterns, from both open and tight choked barrels, especially with the 24 and 28 gram shot loads the bores were designed for, even with 30 gram loads generally, but not so nice generally with 32 or 36 gram loads (too much shot for design).
It really is that simple.
There is recent long thread on DoubleGunShop on this topic.
The ONLY USA loaded shotshells I will shoot in my 16X65 and 16X67 chambered doubles is the Remington black promo hulls (which have 67 mm hulls even though marked 70 mm). And then only in the stronger ones, just to get empties to reload. Fiocchi USA 16 gauge ammo is/was loaded in 67 mm hulls too and has much lower chamber pressures. I know of no 12X67 or 12X65 ammo loaded by USA ammo factories. There are some low pressure (5.000-7.000 psi) 12X70 ammo (Winchester Low Noise, Low Recoil, Federal recently came out with one too, maybe others too). These loads have about 24 grams shot at lower velocities of 950-1200 fps). I shorten Remington STS hulls to 65 mm and load with hartin crimps (modified star crimp, which has overshot cardwad to hold in shotpellets).
NiklasReply author: daniel phillips
Replied on: 04/24/2007 9:24:36 PM
i use 2" eley in most of the short 65 chambers 1 oz of shoot. its sporting and holds very nice patterns IN OLD TIGHT CHOKES. and doesnt hurt guns or me. and im considering chambers adaptors 12 TO 20 guages. ive read ads and the research and it has good points, makes your gun standard chamber for about $60, NON EXTRACTORS COMES OUT WITH HULLS,AND FOR A LITTLE MORE THEY STAY IN. havent made mind up yet.<>< daniel phillips.© 2000-2006 Gunboards