Persian 98/29 Stock Finish Question
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Thread: Persian 98/29 Stock Finish Question

  1. #1
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    Default Persian 98/29 Stock Finish Question

    Just recently put a nice Persian 98/29 on lay away. The finish looks exactly like everyone I've seen. My question is what is the stock finish made of? Looks like many coats of linseed oil?

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Unknown for sure but many feel it's a shellac+oil based varnish.
    Also used on prewar walnut Mausers used by the Germans such as DSM34 and Banner's..

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mauser1908 View Post
    Just recently put a nice Persian 98/29 on lay away. The finish looks exactly like everyone I've seen. My question is what is the stock finish made of? Looks like many coats of linseed oil?

    Thanks
    We discussed this years back and a noted wood worker agreed it was some sort of long oil based varnish. After much experimentation with many recipes we ended up thinking Tru-Oil was about as close as we could get. The orangish tint could added by using an additional component.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
    befus

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    Quote Originally Posted by befus View Post
    We discussed this years back and a noted wood worker agreed it was some sort of long oil based varnish. After much experimentation with many recipes we ended up thinking Tru-Oil was about as close as we could get. The orangish tint could added by using an additional component.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
    What would you add for the "orangish"' tint? I'm refinishing one right now.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gustro79 View Post
    What would you add for the "orangish"' tint? I'm refinishing one right now.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    Here are most of my notes from back in the day, which include that information. Thanks to friend Dave.

    here are three choices of varnish and four of oil, leading to a
    > lot of possible combinations. Of course various varnishes and oils
    > can be combined!
    >
    > Varnishes: (1) Polyurethane, (2) Alkyd, (3) Phenolic
    >
    > (1) Norm Abrams uses it. He also builds furniture with an
    > airnailer.
    > (2) Alkyd is made from soybeans and other stuff, and is the de
    > facto "Oil Varnish" these days. It cures mostly by solvent
    > evaporation. (3) Is old-fashioned (pre WW-II) It cures mostly by polymerization. The only phenolic
    > resin varnish I've found in commercial channels is McCloskey's
    > Man-O-War brand spar varnish.
    >
    > Oils: (0) No oil, (1) BLO, (2) PTO, (3) Polymerized Tung
    > Oil.
    >
    > No Oil: most old-fashioned varnishes can be thinned out with
    > thinner and applied by hand, like oil. They are sold as "padding
    > varnish", but one can do it oneself. Some varnishes are more
    > suitable for this than others, but adding some BLO will make nearly
    > anything suitable.
    >
    > BLO: Makes a nice mix.
    >
    > PTO: Will cure much nicer than by itself. Will be satiny or
    > whatever.
    >
    > PolyTO: Have not tried. Should be fairly glossy.
    >
    > Formula: About 50:50 varnishil, thinned with an equal or 2*equal
    > amount of thinner is a good starting place. Increase the oil, it
    > becomes more oil-like, decrease the oil, it becomes more
    > varnish-like.
    > Of course.
    >
    > My current favorite is McCloskey's Man-O-War:PTO:Thinner 2:1:4-5.
    >
    > One can use MinWax stain (itself just a really thin varnish-oil
    > vehicle) instead of thinner, which adds color to the mix. If you
    > use an orange stain, you'll have something VERY similar to the
    > varnish used on Persian Mausers
    , and a good replacement for the
    > stuff on Soviet stocks. (More waterproof than shellac). Phenolic
    > varnish was originally very dark, much "progress" has been made in
    > making it paler, which is valued in a varnish by current tastes.
    > Oil-soluble dyes can reverse "progress", of course. This is what
    > colored Watco is -- dyed oil-varnish mix. Unlike some other
    > products, Watco doesn't pretend that it is anything else.
    >
    >
    > Applying oil-varnish mixes.
    >
    > Method 1) Done in the same way as BLO. Less rubbing is needed, it
    > will start getting tacky under your hand. A lot can be put on, it
    > builds much more quickly than BLO or PTO.
    >
    > Method 2) Like a French Polish. Apply with a cotton or wool pad,
    > specially constructed, lubricating with straight BLO or drops of
    > thinner... This I *hear* of people doing, and have made some
    > experiments with it, with success, but don't have enough data to
    > really say what to do. It is very promising, though, and the
    > possibility of combining it with pumice to ultra-polish the wood
    > and fill pores is "exciting". Well, exciting to me. (True French
    > Polish is done with shellac, and is what you see on a Steinway
    > grand piano. Perfect, mirror gloss. So perfect that the surface
    > seems to vanish, the eye does not focus on the surface. On fancy
    > wood it can be breathtaking.)
    >
    > Finishing the finish.
    >
    > Oil, Oil-varnish, varnish (including shellac) finishes are not done
    > until they are rubbed. The ugly-glossy effect is due to a lack of
    > rubbing. Little dust nubbies and similar things create an uneven
    > sparkling effect. This is cured by rubbing with an abrasive and
    > a liquid that will not dissolve or damage the finishing material.
    > Steel wool is sometimes used, and is OK, and can be used dry. (It
    > works better if wet with something.) Rubbing out is tricky on the
    > very thin finishes typical of gunstocks.
    >
    > Finishing the finished finish:
    >
    > One method: Wax. Rub with a cloth.
    >
    > Another: Rub out, then apply a layer of BLO:Japan Drier:Thinner
    > in ratio 5:1:12, Apply as thin a coat as is humanly possible.
    > Let cure in dust-free place. Gives a nice result.

    You are welcome
    befus

  7. #6
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    Apr 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by befus View Post
    Here are most of my notes from back in the day, which include that information. Thanks to friend Dave.

    here are three choices of varnish and four of oil, leading to a
    > lot of possible combinations. Of course various varnishes and oils
    > can be combined!
    >
    > Varnishes: (1) Polyurethane, (2) Alkyd, (3) Phenolic
    >
    > (1) Norm Abrams uses it. He also builds furniture with an
    > airnailer.
    > (2) Alkyd is made from soybeans and other stuff, and is the de
    > facto "Oil Varnish" these days. It cures mostly by solvent
    > evaporation. (3) Is old-fashioned (pre WW-II) It cures mostly by polymerization. The only phenolic
    > resin varnish I've found in commercial channels is McCloskey's
    > Man-O-War brand spar varnish.
    >
    > Oils: (0) No oil, (1) BLO, (2) PTO, (3) Polymerized Tung
    > Oil.
    >
    > No Oil: most old-fashioned varnishes can be thinned out with
    > thinner and applied by hand, like oil. They are sold as "padding
    > varnish", but one can do it oneself. Some varnishes are more
    > suitable for this than others, but adding some BLO will make nearly
    > anything suitable.
    >
    > BLO: Makes a nice mix.
    >
    > PTO: Will cure much nicer than by itself. Will be satiny or
    > whatever.
    >
    > PolyTO: Have not tried. Should be fairly glossy.
    >
    > Formula: About 50:50 varnishil, thinned with an equal or 2*equal
    > amount of thinner is a good starting place. Increase the oil, it
    > becomes more oil-like, decrease the oil, it becomes more
    > varnish-like.
    > Of course.
    >
    > My current favorite is McCloskey's Man-O-War:PTO:Thinner 2:1:4-5.
    >
    > One can use MinWax stain (itself just a really thin varnish-oil
    > vehicle) instead of thinner, which adds color to the mix. If you
    > use an orange stain, you'll have something VERY similar to the
    > varnish used on Persian Mausers
    , and a good replacement for the
    > stuff on Soviet stocks. (More waterproof than shellac). Phenolic
    > varnish was originally very dark, much "progress" has been made in
    > making it paler, which is valued in a varnish by current tastes.
    > Oil-soluble dyes can reverse "progress", of course. This is what
    > colored Watco is -- dyed oil-varnish mix. Unlike some other
    > products, Watco doesn't pretend that it is anything else.
    >
    >
    > Applying oil-varnish mixes.
    >
    > Method 1) Done in the same way as BLO. Less rubbing is needed, it
    > will start getting tacky under your hand. A lot can be put on, it
    > builds much more quickly than BLO or PTO.
    >
    > Method 2) Like a French Polish. Apply with a cotton or wool pad,
    > specially constructed, lubricating with straight BLO or drops of
    > thinner... This I *hear* of people doing, and have made some
    > experiments with it, with success, but don't have enough data to
    > really say what to do. It is very promising, though, and the
    > possibility of combining it with pumice to ultra-polish the wood
    > and fill pores is "exciting". Well, exciting to me. (True French
    > Polish is done with shellac, and is what you see on a Steinway
    > grand piano. Perfect, mirror gloss. So perfect that the surface
    > seems to vanish, the eye does not focus on the surface. On fancy
    > wood it can be breathtaking.)
    >
    > Finishing the finish.
    >
    > Oil, Oil-varnish, varnish (including shellac) finishes are not done
    > until they are rubbed. The ugly-glossy effect is due to a lack of
    > rubbing. Little dust nubbies and similar things create an uneven
    > sparkling effect. This is cured by rubbing with an abrasive and
    > a liquid that will not dissolve or damage the finishing material.
    > Steel wool is sometimes used, and is OK, and can be used dry. (It
    > works better if wet with something.) Rubbing out is tricky on the
    > very thin finishes typical of gunstocks.
    >
    > Finishing the finished finish:
    >
    > One method: Wax. Rub with a cloth.
    >
    > Another: Rub out, then apply a layer of BLO:Japan Drier:Thinner
    > in ratio 5:1:12, Apply as thin a coat as is humanly possible.
    > Let cure in dust-free place. Gives a nice result.

    You are welcome
    Wow, fantastic! Thanks!

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Durand, MI
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gustro79 View Post
    What would you add for the "orangish"' tint? I'm refinishing one right now.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    Time---wood and fisnish change color over time, usually getting darker and slight color change.

  9. #8
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    Jan 2012
    Location
    Dayton, Ohio
    Posts
    59

    Default

    You might want to try the finish that is described on the Swiss rifle sight. This is from the Museum in Switzerland. This involves a mix of turpintine, linseed oil, beeswax, and fruit vinegar. I am thinking that most manufacturers of the time used a formula similar to this one................

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