VERY long-range 6.5x55SE data needed, please.
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Thread: VERY long-range 6.5x55SE data needed, please.

  1. #1
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    Default VERY long-range 6.5x55SE data needed, please.

    A fellow shooter over here in UK is determined to shoot his 6.5x55SE Tikka rifle out to not just 1500 yards, but hopefully, a full mile.

    Is he farting in the thunder, or has he any hope of achieving his aim, so to speak?

    He is, of course, a keen handloader, but knowledge of shooting this round at such a distance is way over my pay scale. He has the choice of any bullet you might mention, BTW.

    He is also looking to find a scope that has sufficient magnification and clicks to enable him to do it.

    On a budget of around $1K.

    TIA

    tac
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  2. #2
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    Tac: I've forwarded your query to friend in Minnesota that shoots a 6.5X55 Tikka long range.

  3. #3
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    I don't think he can get the velocity to make it, but then again I've shot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yds with a Rem 510 .22. He might get them out there, but can he score?
    If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention!

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    You won't find a scope to do it, not enough internal elevation, for pretty much ANY cartridge.

    The people doing it over here are using "slanted" scope bases/rings.

    Most are doing it with AR's of some caliber, and so they get a "20-MOA base", which basically tilts a set of rings to START with close to 22" of elevation at 100 yards.
    Something along this line is how he's going to have to mount a scope, not parallel to his bore.
    I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.

  6. #5
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    while i consider the swede a 100 years before its time,
    i think bullet weight will kill the task.
    how long is the bbl on the rifle ?
    i shot this week end with a guy that had
    a custom 6.5 creedmore. we were shooting
    875 to 2023 yards. he came in second to last.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldstuffer View Post
    You won't find a scope to do it, not enough internal elevation, for pretty much ANY cartridge.

    The people doing it over here are using "slanted" scope bases/rings.

    Most are doing it with AR's of some caliber, and so they get a "20-MOA base", which basically tilts a set of rings to START with close to 22" of elevation at 100 yards.
    Something along this line is how he's going to have to mount a scope, not parallel to his bore.
    This is probably the easiest way to mount a scope with additional elevation: http://www.burrisoptics.com/mounting...ignature-rings

  8. #7
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    Many thanks, Gentlemen - food for thought indeed.

    BTW, he has a 24" bbl Tikka.

    My own view is that the short barrel is going to screw him on this one.

    Not enough velocity developed, unless he's going to use nuclear power...

    tac
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    if he can find old copies or source of 'PRECISION SHOOTING"
    a guy did 1000 yd br with a swede. with all the work he did,
    in the end it was not competitive.

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    Shepards....have interesting set ups and repertation.
    I owned one short while.....two many things going on in the scope interfering with what was shot at out side the scope....
    I traded for swarioskia.><> Dan

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    Quote Originally Posted by ar10ar15man View Post
    if he can find old copies or source of 'PRECISION SHOOTING"
    a guy did 1000 yd br with a swede. with all the work he did,
    in the end it was not competitive.
    Limes and oranges. Modern 6.5X55 rifles, e.g. Tikka T3, CZ550, SAKO 85, can take much more pressure than an M96.

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    i guess i missed the PUBLISHED plus p data.
    the new case with a stronger base to take the pressure ?
    saami is 51 kpsi
    and cip is 3800 bar/55kpsi
    as always do what you feel safe with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ar10ar15man View Post
    i guess i missed the PUBLISHED plus p data.
    the new case with a stronger base to take the pressure ?
    saami is 51 kpsi
    and cip is 3800 bar/55kpsi
    as always do what you feel safe with.
    Some reputable reloading manuals have separate data for the M96/M38 Swedish Mauser and for modern rifles. The Vihta Vuori manual has data that is tested in the Sauer STR 200, and since this rifle has three barrel options - 26.4", 27.6" and 29.1" - the tables have three columns listing MV. For example, the Scenar 136 gr over 49.4 gr Vihta Vuori N560 will yield 2956 FPS from the 29" barrel.

    Listed brass is Lapua, of course. I am not aware of any "+P" brass for rifles.

  14. #13
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    geez, if you guys could only push a little harder, the sweede will turn into a 264WinMag. In my M96s w/about 140gr Norma and handloads speeds can approach 2900fps and with 156grainers a little over 2500fps. Work up carefully Norma and others can push pressures past 45KCUP. There is a lot more going on other than speed in long range accuracy. BestAll

















    kcup

  15. #14
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    for the brave at heart.
    '96's are converted to 30/06 in sweden
    and CERTIFIED for 4050 bar or 58.7kpsi.
    you should note that this is LESS than std saami 30'06,
    but obviously more than 6.5x55

    again this is an area to tip toe into.

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    [QUOTE=Oldstuffer;6697826]You won't find a scope to do it, not enough internal elevation, for pretty much ANY cartridge.

    The people doing it over here are using "slanted" scope bases/rings.

    Most are doing it with AR's of some caliber, and so they get a "20-MOA base", which basically tilts a set of rings to START with close to 22" of elevation at 100 yards.
    Something along this line is how he's going to have to mount a scope, not parallel to his bore. i've shot long range with 2 or more targets stacked in a row just shoot the top target and score the bottom target , just for fun before you make up bases for elevation better to try it before spending $$$$$$$

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    actually there are a few target scopes that will do this out of the box.
    while a 15/20 moa base makes it easier, it is not always required.
    a nightforce 5.5-22x has 100 MOA built in on the elevation turret.
    several do a bit less and lots at 50 or so.
    you will not really know what you need till you work out the balistics.
    i used a tilted base in my mk 13 sniper rifle with a nf 5.5-22x, and my
    100 yard zero is almost at the bottom of my elevation, which means i can
    go about 1.5 miles on the turrets, and then go to the reticle for more.

  18. #17
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    Thanks, Sir, for that. Given he's trying to do this with a scope buy of around the equivalent of $1000, I reckon he's on a loser.

    tac
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley2 View Post
    Thanks, Sir, for that. Given he's trying to do this with a scope buy of around the equivalent of $1000, I reckon he's on a loser.

    tac
    Tac, you're an old artilleryman too, so show your chum how to put out aiming stakes and lay on an azimuth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leon View Post
    This is probably the easiest way to mount a scope with additional elevation: http://www.burrisoptics.com/mounting...ignature-rings
    Yes, something like those. 40MOA are apparently possible with those.

    The Vihta Vuori manual has data that is tested in the Sauer STR 200, the Scenar 136 gr over 49.4 gr Vihta Vuori N560 will yield 2956 FPS from the 29" barrel.
    I test drove this past Realguns' external ballistics calculator, it would only let me have 1,000 yard max (call it 900M for you metrical folks).
    At an 800 yard zero, the bullet hits 1,000 yards 85.5 inches below line of sight.
    At around 430 yards, it peaks out at almost 60" above line of sight.


    JBM's calculator let me have more range, I set a 1200 yard zero and a 1700 yard (1 mile) end target.

    You lob the bullet 177" high at 700 yards, 1200 yard zero, and still comes in 744 inches below line of sight at 1700 yards.......................

    Your buddy has a mortar, waste of effort to try this IMO, but hey, that just means I won't be doing it................................................ .
    I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.

  21. #20
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    Is there a Vortex scope with tons of elevation? If so, he could make the $1000 scope limit along with 20 MOA base/rail.

    24" barrel might get extreme ranges...I'd bet a 26" is the way to go.
    Last edited by milprileb; 04-22-2017 at 06:43 AM.

  22. #21
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    from my shooting buddies,
    the top end vortex's are great scopes.
    end of comment

    maybe look at used.
    i did 2000 plus yards with 22X
    so high mag is not REQUIRED if
    the target is over 1ft sq.

  23. #22
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    Question

    Having 33x44 X fixed powered scope being put on my tikka varmint bull barrel....
    Rifles In 223 (started work last week) ..hope I like the scope.?
    It's the third scope I've tried to put on this rifle...
    can't find a scope my poor eyes like !
    Last edited by DK PHILLIPS; 04-22-2017 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Fixed

  24. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DK PHILLIPS View Post
    Having 33x44 X fixed being put on my tikka varmint bull barrel....
    In 223 last week ..hope I like it..?
    .third scope I've tried to put on....can't find something my poor eyes like !
    Dang DK, you are writing like that Cajun over on mine fields these days. How about complete sentences for a change !!!! I need a translator to break the code on what you wrote above !!!

  25. #24
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    Pressure confusion exists all over Swederland and elsewhere too. 30'06 pressures can be 50KCUP or 55Kpsi by strain/piezo. Some of Norma's hotter Swede loads can also push 55Kpsi by strain/piezo. All swdeish mausers were factory proofed at 4050 bar or about 59-62KCUP. And I am led to believe that in modern europe, guns are reproofed with ownership change

  26. #25
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    where do people come up with this stuff ??
    saami for 30'06 is 60k psi.
    cip is pretty clear on 6.5x55 .
    NOT ONE OF MY SWEDES HAD A PSI/BAR REPROOF LISTED,'
    unlike finn m39s which were clearly marked.


    Quote Originally Posted by lonniemike View Post
    Pressure confusion exists all over Swederland and elsewhere too. 30'06 pressures can be 50KCUP or 55Kpsi by strain/piezo. Some of Norma's hotter Swede loads can also push 55Kpsi by strain/piezo. All swdeish mausers were factory proofed at 4050 bar or about 59-62KCUP. And I am led to believe that in modern europe, guns are reproofed with ownership change

  27. #26
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    Default Tikka 6.5x55 long range shooting

    +1 on the 20 MOA rail, which is the way my T3 Sporter is set up (24" barrel). Even a top line drop in steel rail will only set you back up to $150, and aluminium is cheaper again.

    Many may not know the first accuracy revolution during the long period when .303 Br was the norm (out to 1000 yards) was when European rifles in .256 Mannlicher and the Ross in .280 appeared around the WW1 era. They totally eclipsed the heavier .303 rounds of the day and triggered feverish development of a lighter spitzer target bullet for the .303.

    With moderate velocities you will need more than 40 MOA for a 6.5 x 55 to get to 1000 yards from a 300 yard zero and would probably need a high end 30 or 34 mm tube scope if you mount it parallel to the bore.

    One of the worst scopes for a limited adjustment range is the older Bushnell 6-24 x 44 Mil dot, but you shoot what you have is my motto. This scope has less than 30 MOA adjustment but the rail gives me a zero at 100 yards when wound right down and goes to 800 yards easily. Still yet to prove an elevation setting for 900 yards as my home range goes only to 800 but it will get there in time. I expect it will reach to 900 with the full adjustment and at 1000 yards I will probably hold two mil dots to get a good elevation, so there should also be no issue there either.

    Lots of people here in Aus are using Tikka's in 6.5 x 55 (search for Australian High Power Rifle) with the serious guys rebarelling to longer tubes but using short Match chambers. There is no problem loading for excellent accuracy in a longer tube.

    For the factory 24" barrel and using Lapua case/139 gr scenar loads I am still just at the start of exploring the accuracy potential but so far it is very good. The advantage of the standard long throated chamber is long seated rounds (which fit easily in standard or aftermarket magazines) give relatively low chamber pressures, leaving plenty of scope to push loads up in a modern action like the Tikka. I am using two bullets so far, Sierra with COL = 78 mm and Scenar with COL 80 mm. I am still in the process of exploring the pressure limits. Shooting single shots from the magazine (no recoil effect on any other round) frees you up to some extent when long seating bullets and using a short engagement length in the neck.

    The most common round for long range shooting in the Commonwealth is still the 155 gr in .308W. It is extremely successful out to 1000 yards when driven at speeds anywhere up to 2950 fps. In a long barrel the 6.5 x 55 will easily reach that and beat the .308W hands down with a much higher BC for less wind drift. The older target rifles in .308W (when up to 26" was the norm) easily produced good 1000 yard accuracy using much lighter bullets and shorter barrel lengths than today, so I don't believe there is any evidence to say only a very long barrel will work.

    Finally, going to beyond 1500 yards, I would again expect the cartridge to be able to do it, but not without a custom tapered rail a lot more than 20 MOA. Without having checked any ballistic program I would expect a rail in the range of 40 MOA would be needed, which in effect move the minimum rifle zero to near 1000 yards. With the standard Match Rifle format in the Commonwealth the will be lots of trajectory data for the usual .308W using very heavy bullets above 200 grains. Obviously the 6.5 can't go down that path since there are no heavy match type 6.5 bullets unless you were to make your own (hence cost prohibitive). The lesson there is real long range performance does not depend solely on velocity at the muzzle.
    Last edited by swedeM63; 04-26-2017 at 07:08 PM.
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  28. #27
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    Tac, try the Hornady on-line ballistics calculator. It has been dead on for me to 1000yds.

    I did a quick check; Looks like for 1600yds you would need around 100MOA or a bit less if you could squeeze 2800+ fps.

    Daniel39

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    Tac:

    What your friend is planning was already done more than a century ago. When NORMA had their 100 year anniversary in 1994 they printed a book, with some interesting storys from the old days. One of the three brothers who started NORMA in 1894, Johan Enger, is claimed to have a world record in shooting at 2000 meters, with 20 hits of 20 shots, on a 3 x 3 meter target. The last 5 shots had an average score of 6,4 points.

    Johan Enger was an interesting character. He was involved in starting the Norwegian shooting associations magazine “Norsk skyttertidende” (Norwegian shooters times) in 1881, and was the editor for many years. The magazine is still running btw. He was also one of the shooting associations leaders in the 1880’s and ‘90s. He was also the brain behind several of Normas early bullet designs. In 1910, Norma supplied a spitzer bullet for the Norwegian army for testing. After many delays (WW1 etc..), the army finally adopted a 139 grain boattailed spitzer bullet in 1925. The book also have the story of how NORMA tested their ammo in the 1920’s. The Enger brothers used to set up a range on Mjøsa (Norways biggest lake). On the snow covered lake they could observe where the bullets hit the ground, and then measure the distance. With 0’ elevation, the bullet hit the ground at 1200 meters. It doesn’t say what bullet or load it was though. Kind of interesting to read how they did things before the chronographs and ballistical apps.

    Johan Enger was also constantly trying to improve precision. He had several Krags fitted with scopes and set up trials for the army already in the autumn of 1905. These trials are refered to in Haneviks book about the Krag. Johan was then part of the armys “scopecommission” who did several trials in 1906, with shootings out to 1500 meters. In September 1906, the commission did tests with seven Krags fitted with Voigtlander, Krogh, Hensholdt and Winchester scopes. With one of the rifles, with a Voigtlander scope, and fitted with a slightly shorter (60 cm instead of the normal 76 cm) and thicker barrel, the commission achieved what was claimed to be a world record at the time. 20 hits of 20 shots on a 2,1 x 1,5 meter target at 1800 meters. This could be the same incident as the NORMA book talks about. The army adopted a Krag sniper in 1910. It looked like this:http://www.kvf.no/vaapen.php?type=Ri...aponid=RIF0247
    You can see that the scope has elevation to 2200 meters.

    This was a bit of topic, but I find it interesting to see what the 6,5 x 55 cartridge was capable of already 111 years ago.

  30. #29
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    fwiw using Berger ballistic program from a 100y zero a 140gr Berger Hybrid at 3000fps requires 59 moa for 1600y
    I have a F Class rifle in 6.5 Super Lr (based on a 260 Rem cartridge) I am driving a 140gr VLD at 2980fps from a 100y zero I use 26 moa for 1000y
    get a 30" tube and a 6.5 Swede could get closer to 3050fps maybe even 3100fps with some of the newer powders
    I think it could be done depending on what size target you would be shooting at a Fixed 10X Bushnell Elite has 100moa adjustment might be a bit light on for magnification but plenty of adjustment wiyh a 20moa rail

  31. #30
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    I'm sure it's feasible. Practical? who knows, one way to find out. I think the best bet would be to push these as fast as his rifle stoked with VN560 will allow if his rifling twist will support it. https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...roductId/73907

    I've been shooting their 75 grain 5.56mm version of this bullet at 600 yards this summer. The published BC seems to be very accurate. Elevation call is exactly where predicted based on velocity and the Hornady calculator. I believe the G1 for the above projectile is somewhere around .697.

    I have played with my M96 on larger targets at ranges north of 1000 yards with the Hornady 140 HPBT and 44 gr IMR 4350. I was able to reliably hit aprox 2'x2' ice blocks with some spotting shots on a frozen lake. The farthest was GPSd at over 1200 yards.
    I like ugly and cheap rifles that outshoot their looks and price tag

  32. #31
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    40MOA one piece base + Vortex Golden Eagle HD (that one has 50MOA, I believe of elevation, may be more) - this way 90MOA of playing room and 60x scope that you can ACTUALLY use at 60. Badger Ordinance or Ken Farrell can make you custom one piece rail to your spec - I have several custom jobbies from Ken Farrell and while not the quickest - end product is OUTSTANDING.







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