Need 45/70 carbine load
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Thread: Need 45/70 carbine load

  1. #1
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    Default Need 45/70 carbine load

    Haven't loaded this round for years and found some 500 grainers I had cast when I used to shoot 45/70 before. I have two TD carbines, one is an 84 and the other is a "all period" correct #35616, pre Custer one.
    I might as well use up the bullets and I had always used black powder before but want to try smokeless this time getting lazy and clean up is so much easier with smokeless.
    I have a number of powders to include, 2400, 3031, 4198, Unique and others I could use and I need a nice easy load to shoot in the carbines as the shoulder is not as forgiving as it used to be, and not only that but I certainly don't want to abuse the Custer carbine if I do shoot it. I would appreciate any recommended loads, Ray

  2. #2
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    i believe the Hornady manual has trap door specific 45/70 load data. Don't have mine handy right now.

  3. #3
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    If you want to load for the carbines, you'll want to get some 405 grain bullets; the 500's were for the heavier infantry rifle loads.

    see some smokeless data here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...74#post6814674

    Even Hornaday's Trapdoor data has some starting loads heavier than what a lot of long-time shooters recommend for better accuracy.
    "Hey Look! We've got Guns ... and We've got Snacks!"
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  5. #4
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    I'm old and so is my memory, but...300gr seems to to be what the carbine loads were. Or am I mixing it up with some "Express" load from that island over by France.

  6. #5
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    The Carbine specific load was a 405 gr bullet and reduced 55 grain BP load with filler wads. The 500 gr load came in 1884. The Buffington ladder sight is marked for that load.
    IMR powders load data is on the Hodgdon website as 45-70 (Trapdoor) in the pulldown. (The IMR, and Winchester powder names are owned by Hodgdon now.)
    http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle
    How many psi in a CUP?

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZshooter View Post
    If you want to load for the carbines, you'll want to get some 405 grain bullets; the 500's were for the heavier infantry rifle loads.

    see some smokeless data here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...74#post6814674

    Even Hornaday's Trapdoor data has some starting loads heavier than what a lot of long-time shooters recommend for better accuracy.
    The data lists 38.5, 3031 for 405 bullet. Being I have a a 500 gr bullet, (a little heavier), should I reduce or increase the powder a little? Ray

  8. #7
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    Ray,
    I PM'd you some data from the Speer manual for 3031 and 4198.
    Check your mail.
    D
    How many psi in a CUP?

  9. #8
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    Ray,
    The only Carbine load was 405 grain bullet, 55 grains of black powder and filler wad for 1100 fps.
    You can't duplicate that load with a 500 grain bullet. There never was a 500 grain carbine load.
    Just use the start loads in the loading data if you want a lighter kicking load. But a lighter bullet is the answer to that.
    There's another board dedicated to cast bullets that can help you find a resolution.
    How many psi in a CUP?

  10. #9
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    Well I decided to give up using the 500 gr bullets I had left over thad I used in the rifles. Maybe a bit heavy for the carbine. I looked up loads in the castboolit site and found an interesting idea which is using a round ball .457 with unique. Post says 10 grains but may reduce that a bit for the carbine. One poster stated he gets 4" groups at 100yrds. This would be a nice easy load to use with the Custer carbine, Ray
    Last edited by RayG_Wisconsin; 05-14-2017 at 12:08 PM.

  11. #10
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    Happy day, I just found my 405 gr bullet mold among my molds. So I will load up some rds with that mold but will reduce the powder charges a few grs. for the carbine.
    I will still try the round ball load as it looks like it would be fun to shoot. Ray

  12. #11
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    Get a copy of the Lyman cast bullet handbook. It has plenty of Trapdoor cast bullet loads.

    Be very careful with UNIQUE. It has 2 potential problems.

    1. You can easily double or triple charge a case with it destroying your rifle. Use a flashlight to compare the powder height in all cases before you begin seating bullets.

    2. Even the light loads may ring the chamber of an antique original because the steel is so soft.

    I don't think you will get 4" groups with a round ball at `100 yards or even 50 yards.
    I know 2" groups at 50 yards is possible with 300 grain bullets though.

    The best powder is either 5744 or the discontinued SR4759 since they are not very position sensitive.

    If you ever get a more modern 45-70 there are a lot of reduced loads at GMDR.com. I would not recommend them for a trap door.
    You can see that the 500 grn bullets are more accurate across the various powders though there is a recoil penalty to pay.

    http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm
    Last edited by ireload2; 05-14-2017 at 04:08 PM.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG_Wisconsin View Post
    Happy day, ....
    Ray
    YAY!!!
    How many psi in a CUP?

  14. #13
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    here are some smokeless loads that i shoot in my original trapdoor carbine with out any problem, the bullet that i use is a 200 grain cast round nose. powder 12 grs UNIQUE- 22 GRS- 2400- 23 GRS. 4227- 23 GRS. 4759- 20 GRS. 4198. all loads have cotton, tissue or drier lint on top of the powder to keep it against the powder. recoil is like shooting a 38, Revolver. i use these loads, if you use them you do so at your own risk!! so use caution!!.

  15. #14
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    i do not have a mold for the 200 grain cast heads, so i get them from- BOB HAYLEY- 211 north river, PC BOX 889, SEYMOUR, TX. 76380. PHONE # (940) 888- 3352. I have been getting odd ball size bullets and odd ball brass from him for years, he has it all. when you call leave a message and he will get back to you.

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    if wanting a light smokless load, try trail boss.

    The action on the carbine will handle a 485gr projectile ... it's for sure trap door safe.

    that's 8-10grs trail boss by the way
    Sent from my Nokia 1020 win 8.1 phone

  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundguy View Post
    if wanting a light smokless load, try trail boss.

    The action on the carbine will handle a 485gr projectile ... it's for sure trap door safe.

    that's 8-10grs trail boss by the way
    Take a long hard look at Trail Boss data: pressure vs velocity & you'll discover Trailboss isn't the wonderful powder for .45-70 many thought it would be a number of years ago. I've also read of .45-70 reloaders complaining of pressure spikes that also make it less than ideal for 140 year old guns. There are too many better powders for .45-70 that will give you better performance at lower pressure.
    "Hey Look! We've got Guns ... and We've got Snacks!"
    - Cdr. Samuel "Sam" Axe, USN, (ret) -

  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZshooter View Post
    Take a long hard look at Trail Boss data: pressure vs velocity & you'll discover Trailboss isn't the wonderful powder for .45-70 many thought it would be a number of years ago. I've also read of .45-70 reloaders complaining of pressure spikes that also make it less than ideal for 140 year old guns. There are too many better powders for .45-70 that will give you better performance at lower pressure.
    Agreed. The load and pressure bands are very narrow. It's just not the best choice. I was quite disappointed.
    How many psi in a CUP?

  19. #18
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    If I remember right the #457406 is a 485 grain bullet with gas check. Will make .459" with wheel weights plus 2% tin. That one gets shot in a Ruger #1 in 45/70 and should be good to go in my Pedersoli sharps infantry rifle. Unique,2400,IMR 4227, IMR 4759. Frank

  20. #19
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    i heard TRAIL BOSS can be trouble with pressure spikes with re doused loads? 8-10 grain load you listed, what weight bullet are you using with it? i missed it. is the load for a 458 grain cast bullet?

  21. #20
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    i re read the post, i understand it. answered my on question. just a senior moment. we all get them, sorry.

  22. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZshooter View Post
    Take a long hard look at Trail Boss data: pressure vs velocity & you'll discover Trailboss isn't the wonderful powder for .45-70 many thought it would be a number of years ago. I've also read of .45-70 reloaders complaining of pressure spikes that also make it less than ideal for 140 year old guns. There are too many better powders for .45-70 that will give you better performance at lower pressure.

    If someone thinks they had spikes, I'd like to see visual evidence of the charge on the load they tested, and the transducer data.

    Many people unfamiliar with tb load it incorrectly.

    I've shot tb exclusively in a double rifle that is only rated for trapdoor loads for years. Gun is still super tight, no pressure signs on cases or primers, still have 10 digits and 2 eyes, and my shoulder tells me its less of a load than commercial trapdoor loads from major manufacturers.

    So where's that transducer data and start to finish video proof you wanted to show me, I'm eager to see it and have my experienced opinion changed via fact.
    Sent from my Nokia 1020 win 8.1 phone

  23. #22
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    On Trail Boss:
    It seems with most of the rifle cartridges I've looked into, I will get way lower velocities at the same pressure level as say IMR4198 (run through Quickload). The exceptions were smaller, more pistol-like rounds like 41 Swiss.

  24. #23
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    To each his own. Trail Boss turned out to be a poor choice amongst many good ones. Been there, done that, took notes, moved on to greener pastures.
    How many psi in a CUP?

  25. #24
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    I think maybe what they mean by pressure spikes and Trail Boss is how quickly it can get very high. Looking over the data closely like mentioned above you can see the potential for this.

    I know this is a little apple to oranges thing but I've been using Unique in 500 S&W. The start load is 12grs. I've used 12grs with 250gr 365gr and 440gr cast bullets with excellent results.

    The 500 case is shaped different than the 45-70 but there overall pretty similar. I just started casting the 340gr Lee for the 45-70. I haven't tried any really light loads (Unique loads) using it yet. I'm currently using the starting load from the Lyman cast bullet manual using a traditional rifle powder.

    I'm very pleased with these bullets you may want to give this mould a try.

    Motor

  26. #25
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    Good notes Motor. That's exactly what I was referring to, you just said it much better.
    How many psi in a CUP?

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    Got a picture of those projectiles? sound interesting.

    thanks.
    Sent from my Nokia 1020 win 8.1 phone

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundguy View Post
    Got a picture of those projectiles? sound interesting.

    thanks.
    Are you asking about the 340gr Lee ? If you are I'll try to get some posted later.

    I've posted pictures of my 500's several times. Two of them are muzzleloader bullets.

    Motor

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