Winchester 1917 valuation opinion, and some questions - W/Photos
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Thread: Winchester 1917 valuation opinion, and some questions - W/Photos

  1. #1
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    Default Winchester 1917 valuation opinion, and some questions - W/Photos

    I have seen GB sold auctions all over the map, with some mixmasters going for well over $1000. Shown below is my mixmaster, that has Winchester:

    Barrel (Bore is very bright and shinny)
    Receiver
    Stock (Elmer Keith stamp from the Ogden depot)
    Safety
    Barrel bands
    Trapdoor
    Buttplate
    All sights/sight components and bases

    Not Winchester:

    Bolt
    Bolt sleeve
    Cocking piece
    Floor plate
    Follower

    Other parts I have not examined, so can't add what they are.

    I'm guessing the bluing is original, and I would assume the Winchester barrel is the one that was mounted in 12/1917? There is storage grease on the blued steel, so it looks muted. So, with what I told you, and looking her over, what would be a fair valuation? BTW, she is a hell of a shooter, and has a very nice trigger. Thank you.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC_3923.jpg   DSC_3929.jpg   DSC_3925.jpg   DSC_3924.jpg   DSC_3926.jpg   DSC_3927.jpg  

    DSC_3928.jpg  

  2. #2
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    700-750 in this part of the world
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    Could go as much as $800 in my area.

    John

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    That's a nice looking gun. Possibly close to a grand on the right day with brisk bidding on the broker. Between regular guys, the $800 range all day long.

  6. #5

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    $750-850 based on condition, even though a mixmaster. On line, the Winchester mania kicks in more. However I have recently looked at a number of blued full Remingtons for $850. I had to pass because I had been bad earlier in the show. I really wanted it but the seller did not accept plastic and I could not get that much cash at the ATM.
    "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." --Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

  7. #6

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    the stock should have a large "w" looking down from the muzzle end. If it has an "e" (eddystone) or an "r" (remington) the stock is not original to the rifle. Bolt should also have a "w" on the bottom. Looks pretty nice from here!

  8. #7

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    It's a nice example. I like 1917's and used to collect them. Had over thirty at one time and sold off all but three prime examples. I personally don't think they are worth the prices put on them and don't see any moving at local gun shows. But in the end they are worth what ever you can get somebody to pay.

  9. #8

    Default m-1917

    As most here know, the 1917 rifle was carried into battle during WWI in far greater numbers than the 03! Sargent York won his "CMH" carrying a 1917 rifle and a 1911 pistol! Some Marine units were still using 17's at the start of WWII. I have a picture of Marines hitting the beach at the "Canal" and one is cleaRLY CARRYING A 17 WITH THE SCABBARD ON THE BAYONET!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails marines-landing-at-guadalcanal.jpg  

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOFFHACK View Post
    As most here know, the 1917 rifle was carried into battle during WWI in far greater numbers than the 03! Sargent York won his "CMH" carrying a 1917 rifle and a 1911 pistol! Some Marine units were still using 17's at the start of WWII. I have a picture of Marines hitting the beach at the "Canal" and one is cleaRLY CARRYING A 17 WITH THE SCABBARD ON THE BAYONET!
    I don't think anybody knows for sure which model rifle York used for his medal Of Honor action.... In and NRA magazine article, York's son's asserted that York disliked the Enfield rifle and traded it for a Springfield... and claimed that that was the rifle that he used at that time...... York's own diary claims that he disliked the Enfield and preferred the Springfield,,,,,,, There are plenty of articles on the net with Proof's that he used one instead of the other......

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    Quick question and apologies for posting here, but if a 1917 has the red strip around the circumference of the front handguard and stock, is it lend lease WWII or I? It is chambered 30-06 original barrel.

    It wasn't that long ago the 1917 didn't receive the props of the 1903. Now it appears the popularity is rising. It may be heavy, but it's a fun piece of history.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOFFHACK View Post
    As most here know, the 1917 rifle was carried into battle during WWI in far greater numbers than the 03! Sargent York won his "CMH" carrying a 1917 rifle and a 1911 pistol! Some Marine units were still using 17's at the start of WWII. I have a picture of Marines hitting the beach at the "Canal" and one is cleaRLY CARRYING A 17 WITH THE SCABBARD ON THE BAYONET!
    Is it clearly a 1917? The image isn't all that clear, and 1917 scabbards were issued with '03 bayonets.
    As far as which rifle York used, not only is it by no means certain that he used a 1917, my personal opinion is that he probably did use a 1903. His division was armed with 1917 rifles, but a number of men had acquired 1903 rifles.
    Not proof, of course, but I have a "yard long" photo of a company from the 80th Division. It was also equipped with 1917 rifles, which most of the troops have, but every here and there is someone with a 1903.

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    Quote Originally Posted by columrick View Post
    Quick question and apologies for posting here, but if a 1917 has the red strip around the circumference of the front handguard and stock, is it lend lease WWII or I? It is chambered 30-06 original barrel.

    It wasn't that long ago the 1917 didn't receive the props of the 1903. Now it appears the popularity is rising. It may be heavy, but it's a fun piece of history.
    The red stripes indicate a .30-06 Lend Lease rifle. They were placed there because the Brits had similar rifles in .303 British caliber (designated P13 IIRR) and real problems could ensue if someone tried to load .303 ammo into a .30-06 rifle. My 1917 still has faint traces of this red paint. Mine in an Eddystone dated 1918 and is one of the straightest shooting rifles in my collection!

  14. #13

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    I've read the family confirmed he used an 03. Family said he didn't like the pep sight and traded a guy for an 03 which had open irons.

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    I don't think that is true (the red stripe story)../.......I used to buy P14's 7 at a time from SARCO with red and white bands painted on. They had plugged barrels. I used them to build magnum rifles with the larger boltface of the 303 caliber. They were 135.00 in lots of 7. I think red and white paint indicated the barrels were plugged for use as training rifles so the instructors could tell a live rifle from a drill rifle. I would bet that your rifles with traces of red and white paint have been rebarreled as the only thing disabled was the chamber being drilled and a bolt welded into it.

  16. #15
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    The red stripe around the forend of a 1917 is indicative of a WWII lend lease. The red and white stripes on the P-14 rifles indicate conversion to drill rifles.

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    That would make sense......

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    Hello Gents,

    Nice rifle! On a separate note.........

    Strictly a curiosity question Gents. Can anyone provide a current ballpark estimate for a British issue P-14? This is NOT a pretext for a WTS. I've had this rifle for well over 20 years and am just curious as to what P-14s are selling for these days. It's complete with volley sights.

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    Thank you in advance for any input.

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

  19. #18

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    All of the 1917's that were imported from Canada had a red stripe around the forend to denote non standard caliber same as the 03's that came back from England. The Canadian rifles were not lend lease they were sold directly to the Canadian Govt.

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    In reading this thread I got curious about the P-14 and the M-1917 that I have in my collection. The description of "Mix Bag" M-1917s fits my rifle, which is obviously a WW II arsenal rework. It has an HS (High Standard) barrel, a USMC (United Shoe Machinery Company) bolt, a 5-digit Eddystone serial numbered receiver (77575 / Oct 1917 production) and a Winchester Stock (W 62 on the front band portion of the stock). I can not find any inspection cartouches on the stock. Overall I would rate the rifle as being "very good", with no damage to the stock other than a small chip in front of the bolt rest. Just out of curiosity, can anyone suggest a ballpark value for this rifle?

  21. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by luftmarine View Post
    In reading this thread I got curious about the P-14 and the M-1917 that I have in my collection. The description of "Mix Bag" M-1917s fits my rifle, which is obviously a WW II arsenal rework. It has an HS (High Standard) barrel, a USMC (United Shoe Machinery Company) bolt, a 5-digit Eddystone serial numbered receiver (77575 / Oct 1917 production) and a Winchester Stock (W 62 on the front band portion of the stock). I can not find any inspection cartouches on the stock. Overall I would rate the rifle as being "very good", with no damage to the stock other than a small chip in front of the bolt rest. Just out of curiosity, can anyone suggest a ballpark value for this rifle?
    550-600 ish around here, if the barrel gauges well (likely will)
    what's so funny about peace love and understanding?

  22. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyman1903 View Post
    550-600 ish around here, if the barrel gauges well (likely will)
    Thank you......I paid a little less than that so I guess I am in the right ball park.......all-ln-all it makes a really nice display companion for my P-14.

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    I have inherited a wonderful Eddystone M-1917 rifle from my Father in law.It is all correctly marked with the Eddystone E where present.The barrel is marked 12-17.This rifle is one heck of a shooter,if you feed it 168gr or 180gr bullets.It has the original sling with it.After receiving this rifle I looked up the history of it and discovered that all rifle shipped to europe with the troops were either Eddystone or Remington Made M-1917 rifles.The reason given was that the war department instructed all three rifle manufactures to insure that all rifle parts were interchangeable,which Remington and Eddystone did.Winchester Engineers refused to commit to this rule,so as the War department refused to ship any Winchester rifle over to Europe with the troops.I was very surprised to learn this,but it explains why the Winchester made M-1917 rifles can be found in much better shape.I for one will keep my Eddystone and enjoy it very much at the range.Just thought that I would share this bit of history with fellow Gunboard members.

  24. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPS View Post
    Hello Gents,

    Nice rifle! On a separate note.........

    Strictly a curiosity question Gents. Can anyone provide a current ballpark estimate for a British issue P-14? This is NOT a pretext for a WTS. I've had this rifle for well over 20 years and am just curious as to what P-14s are selling for these days. It's complete with volley sights.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thank you in advance for any input.

    Warmest regards,

    JPS
    John, I am a rank amateur but considering the condition, original with the rifle volley sight (unicorn horn range), sling $50 and up, bayonet (scabbard?) $125 and up, I would not be surprised to pay upwards of $1000 for that rifle when you have that big sale in your back yard (with internet bidding of course). I have seen butt ugly ones bring $500 and nice ones but not complete like yours bring $900.00.

  25. #24
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    I had my grandfathers winchester 1917, he got it through the Civilian Marksmanship program for 6.00 had to sign a contract that if the government ever needed it back they could have it. He cut down the stock. It was his go to elk rifle.

  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjershooter View Post
    I have inherited a wonderful Eddystone M-1917 rifle from my Father in law.It is all correctly marked with the Eddystone E where present.The barrel is marked 12-17.This rifle is one heck of a shooter,if you feed it 168gr or 180gr bullets.It has the original sling with it.After receiving this rifle I looked up the history of it and discovered that all rifle shipped to europe with the troops were either Eddystone or Remington Made M-1917 rifles.The reason given was that the war department instructed all three rifle manufactures to insure that all rifle parts were interchangeable,which Remington and Eddystone did.Winchester Engineers refused to commit to this rule,so as the War department refused to ship any Winchester rifle over to Europe with the troops.I was very surprised to learn this,but it explains why the Winchester made M-1917 rifles can be found in much better shape.I for one will keep my Eddystone and enjoy it very much at the range.Just thought that I would share this bit of history with fellow Gunboard members.
    Winchester rifles were initially behind Eddystone and Remington rifles in interchangeability, but once adequate interchangeability was established between all three manufacturers, deemed to be by January, 1918, all were approved for overseas service. This took place in March, 1918.
    The AEF had asked that early production Winchester rifles not be shipped, but at the time, no 1917 rifles had been approved for service in France. Once approval was granted, rifles from all three manufacturers were shipped. The delay in achieving full interchangeability didn't really cause any problems in supplying​rifles to the troops, because the big buildup in AEF troop strength didn't really begin until about March anyway.

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    What exactly interchangeability problems were there? I have not heard much discussion into the matter. I wonder if it was small parts like ejectors or magazine parts or sights or critical parts like barrels bolts or even final machining for receivers or sights that caused the difficulty.

  28. #27
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    I believe my rifle, by virtue of the circled star on the LH side of the receiver (see photos), is one of these early, supposed non-fully interchangeable parts, Winchester rifles. I think any Winchester made on or after Jan 1, 1918, will not have this mark, was considered OK for foreign/overseas use, and considered to have fully interchangeable parts... Looks like mine, just missed this. My rifle has an Eddystone bolt, and headspace seems perfect. Not sure what parts were suspect, to not be considered fully interchangeable.

  29. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doco Overboard View Post
    What exactly interchangeability problems were there? I have not heard much discussion into the matter. I wonder if it was small parts like ejectors or magazine parts or sights or critical parts like barrels bolts or even final machining for receivers or sights that caused the difficulty.
    The British had not required the manufacturers of the P14 rifles to make them interchangeable between the different factories. They only provided sample rifles, and each factory had to work up its own production drawings and tooling. Each factory essentially made its own version of the rifle. When U.S. modified the design to the Model 1917 it did insist on interchangeability between the three factories, which meant all three manufacturers had to pretty much start fresh, agree on dimensions and drawings, prepare gauges, and then verify that product of the various factories did interchange. The companies were given the option of waiting for interchangeability to be verified, or beginning production earlier. Remington and Eddystone elected to wait, but Winchester began production early, which as noted above did cause it some problems.

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    Dear Jungles;Thanks for the update on my information.I was wondering if what I have also read to be true?I read that the War department took over these three factories and administered the factories during these rifles productions.I believe that this was the first and only time that the War department did this.Am I right on this topic?

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    Dear Jungles;Thanks for the update to my information.I was wondering if what I read is also true.I read that the US.War department took over the administration and supervision of these three production plants during the production of M-1917 rifles after Winchester at first balked at interchangeable parts for all service rifles,and if this led to Winchester finally complying with the mandate about interchangeable parts,and shipping was started in March of 1918?

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    I don't think that is true (the red stripe story)../.......I used to buy P14's 7 at a time from SARCO with red and white bands painted on. They had plugged barrels. I used them to build magnum rifles with the larger boltface of the 303 caliber. They were 135.00 in lots of 7. I think red and white paint indicated the barrels were plugged for use as training rifles so the instructors could tell a live rifle from a drill rifle. I would bet that your rifles with traces of red and white paint have been rebarreled as the only thing disabled was the chamber being drilled and a bolt welded into it


    I have a 1917 rifle that came to me WITH a red stripe around the barrel AND it has the British BNP 'released from service' proofs.

    The red stripe story is as true as it gets.

    I bought the rifle at a gun show back in 1967 (for $20 or $25, I can't recall any more) when I was 18, and not knowing any better at the time, the FIRST thing I did to that rifle was to get rid of the red stripe.

    By the way, that rifle is ALSO a 5 digit serial number (52854, in my case) Winchester-made rifle, with a November, 1917 barrel, much like the one in the OP.

    My Winchester may not have made it 'over there' during WWI, but you can be doggone sure it made it there during WWII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doco Overboard View Post
    What exactly interchangeability problems were there? I have not heard much discussion into the matter. I wonder if it was small parts like ejectors or magazine parts or sights or critical parts like barrels bolts or even final machining for receivers or sights that caused the difficulty.
    I can't tell you for sure about all the interchangeability issues on the M1917 rifles, but I can tell you for a fact that I had a Winchester P14 (It looked really nice. I bought it for REAL cheap, and THEN I found out why) that needed a different bolt to make it functional.

    There was nothing wrong with the original bolt OR the receiver/barrel, but the headspace was WAY excessive. Although protrusion was correct, the firing pin would just BARELY reach the primer, and would not set it off.

    I had to go through SEVEN P14 bolts that a 'parts guy' had at a gun show to find only two that headspaced correctly in my rifle (both were Winchester bolts). ONE of those bolts couldn't even be inserted into the action of my P14 (too big a diameter).

    The British gave all three US factories the drawings and one Pattern 13 rifle to work from to make the P14. It was up to the factories to convert the rifles to .303. In each case the factories 'did their own thing' and made their own tooling and gauges to build them.

    Since there was no clause about interchangeability of parts between manufacturers in the original contracts, parts interchangeability was of no concern at all to the three US manufacturers, who all 'did their own thing' throughout the entire P14 contracts. This is one major reason the P14 did not see very much use at all during WWI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twh View Post
    The red stripe around the forend of a 1917 is indicative of a WWII lend lease. The red and white stripes on the P-14 rifles indicate conversion to drill rifles.
    Actually, this was an indication and a warning of 'non standard caliber' (not in .303) for the users of the rifles..

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    Just a thought. Have you ever removed the buttstock disc to see what is on the other side? It may be marked to the last unit it was issued to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjershooter View Post
    Dear Jungles;Thanks for the update on my information.I was wondering if what I have also read to be true?I read that the War department took over these three factories and administered the factories during these rifles productions.I believe that this was the first and only time that the War department did this.Am I right on this topic?
    The manufacturers ran their own plants, although there were plenty of government inspectors overseeing production.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjershooter View Post
    Dear Jungles;Thanks for the update to my information.I was wondering if what I read is also true.I read that the US.War department took over the administration and supervision of these three production plants during the production of M-1917 rifles after Winchester at first balked at interchangeable parts for all service rifles,and if this led to Winchester finally complying with the mandate about interchangeable parts,and shipping was started in March of 1918?
    It wasn't so much that Winchester wasn't complying, so much as that the company chose to exercise its option to begin production before final interchangeability standards were approved. Remington and Eddystone elected to wait, although they also produced some rifles in 1917, just not as early as Winchester. No rifles made prior to January, 1918, which was when adequate interchangeability was deemed to have been reached, was approved for overseas service.
    Note, the rifles were never fully interchangeable. "Adequate" interchangeability was deemed to exist when percentages reached the high 90% range.

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