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Israeli marked Indian No.1 MkIII*

3K views 15 replies 10 participants last post by  ExecChef 
#1 ·
A while back someone asked about Israeli marked Lees. I found this in the pile and thought someone might be interested. It is a 1948 FR marked socket Ishapore rifle with Israeli markings on the receiver ring. Also somewhere in the pile is a No.4 Mk1(T) with Israeli markings.

 
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#2 ·
That is just gorgeous. I'd be very interested in that one!

Any way to tell what it was before it went through Ishapore in 1948? Also makes me curious if it was captured originally; it would be a heck of a coincidence for a rifle to ship from Ishapore to British forces before their withdrawal on 14 May 1948.
 
#3 ·
That's a pile I wouldn't mind tripping over. My money would be on capture for this one.
 
#4 ·
It is doubtful this was used by British troops, they had stacks of their own stuff after WWII, nor would Indian forces have been there after independence, 1947.
Maybe, they were used by the Jewish battalion in the British army, but if factory repaired in 1948, who repaired it?
 
#6 ·
There seems to be a problem between dates and events.
If it is confirmed to be an Indian refurb, dated 1948, then the possibility of capture by the Israelis isn't likely. Altho' Indian troops served in Syria, North Africa and Italy during WWII, they were never involved in the UN mandated post war episode in Palestine. The British were withdrawn 14th May, 1948 in some confusion and loss of materiel (even deserters to both Arab and Israeli forces).
India became independent 14/15th August, 1947, soon to be involved in the 1st war with Pakistan, the early clashes dating from 3/4th August, 1947 with further incursions on 22nd October, 1947.
The refurb date of 1948 fits nicely into this particular series of events, as a cease fire didn't occur until 27th November to 31st December, 1947. However, this was not finalised until a UN resolution of 13th August, 1948 was ratified 5th January, 1949.
Israel was de jure recognised by India on 17th September, 1950, so a more mundane explanation is a real possibility. It is common knowledge Israel was purchasing armaments from diverse sources in those days, so perhaps it was acquired govt from govt.
 
#9 ·
The FR 48 is entirely plausible. No mystery there.
Israel used US, British, and German etc. weapons No mystery there.
Independent India supported the idea of Israel. No mystery there.
India had a history of funneling arms for the British for a century. No real mystery but doesn't necessarily mean it's also a factor.

It's only a question of "when". Since the supply of small arms into Israel was somewhat covert at the time it's an ongoing mystery. Why do we need to build up our own? Why must we go down the road of British/Indian deployments and captures? Look at what it was in the late 40's and well into the 50's.
 
#11 ·
Additional photographs

Since there was some interest after all, I looked at the rifle further. With glasses on and a magnifier, the rebuild date is 1946, not 1948. All components are Indian manufacture. It would appear that the final refinishing was done by the Israeli's. This is based on removal and refinish over receiver and barrel serial numbers. The rear sight leaf serial and inspection markings are removed and refinished. The sight leaf is also fully blued. Bolt and receiver are renumbered and blued. Nose cap has straight ears and number removed from bayonet boss. Nose cap is reblued.

Israel could have bought it off the surplus market in the 1950's.
 

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#12 · (Edited)
Interesting rifle. Anything on the right side of the buttsocket?
 
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