Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Walther Shotgun

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    557

    Default Walther Shotgun

    A local dealer imported a number of German shotguns and while going thru them I found a prewar Walther 12 ga. Side by Side Shotgun. I wasn't aware that Walther made shotguns, so if anyone here has any information it would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    UK, Ont Canada, OR USA & Tokyo Japan
    Posts
    1,448

    Default Walther shotgun?

    I have found reference to an auto-loading shotgun on pages 215-217 of "Walther, A German Legend", by Manfred Kersten. This shotgun was invented by Carl Walther in 1921, produced by Walther for a while, then turned over to the Deutsche Werke company for further sales. Internally, the shotgun works like an upside-down Luger, with a toggle that "breaks" downwards (the pages covering this shotgun are titled "Die Kniegelink-Flinte" / "the knee-link shotgun"). The magazine is contained wholly in the forearm, the rear of which swings down from the receiver to load, and the factory specs on this shotgun say it should have a 27.5" barrel.

    The Blue Book (25th ed) shows the Walther semi-auto shotgun as made in Zella Mehlis [Thur] from 1921 to 1931, with a top value of $875, which seems reasonable and would probably be about $1000 today. They are more desireable to Walther collectors than they would be as hunting shotguns.

    A blurb detailing a reprint of the 1934 Walther catalogue notes that - 'Walther’s only two hunting guns are shown in this reprint. They are side by side shotguns that are typical of the 1934 period in Germany. Both have Purdey-style dual under-lugs, utilize the Anson-Deeley boxlock design, and have the Greener cross-bolt locking system. These are the Models WSF and WSFD. For years an argument has been going on about whether Walther actually made these doublebarrel shotguns or not. Their ‘forte,’ or primary market, definitely was not in hunting guns of any type. Perhaps someday someone will definitely prove Walther did, in fact, make these double barrel guns. There was nothing different, fancy or unique about these guns.

    There are also vague hints of a side-by-side combination shotgun and rifle, known in British circles as a Cape Gun, but I can't find any more about it.

    That's it.

    tac
    Last edited by TFoley; 11-27-2008 at 04:58 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    461

    Default

    I have a Walther 12ga SxS shotgun. It is the non-ejector version. They also made the same gun with ejectors. All are pre WW2 mfg. The proof date (month/yr) is stamped on the bottom of the barrel flats of the guns. I think mine is 9/'37 IIRC. They generally have what appears to be the typical trigger guard made from buffalo horn material, but in fact it is made from Bakelite, the same material they used for the P38 grips. The insides are different from most other prewar German/Austrian guns in that they are coil springs instead of flat springs, Stampings are used for alot of the small internal parts. They remind you alot of a P38 pistol in so far as the manufacture technique when you look at the dissassembled small parts. Stampings, coil and wire torsion springs. There are some higher grade guns around with full engraving and a 'coin' finish (grey tone). Most are blued and were hot salt blued. The Walther markings on the lower grades were etched into place in the same manner as the PP and PPk commercial pistols of the period. Strong box lock actions. I've shot mine for some time now. I've owned it for about 10 years and recently the safety stuck in the forward position so I have it apart now to repair it. First ever problem I've had with it. Nothing serious! I've run accross a few others since then in 12 and 16 gauges. Nice big Walther banner logo on the butt plate is hard to miss hanging off the end of a gunshow table!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    557

    Default

    Thanks guys for your info. The shotgun is very plain but beautifully made as one would expect from a pre war German company. I just never knew they made shotguns and I just may have to buy it because of the uniqueness of seeing their logo on a shotgun. If I do buy it I'll post photos.
    Last edited by mag204; 11-28-2008 at 12:48 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    150

    Default

    The Walther SxS shotguns were made into the early war period, at least late 1940. Mag204, I take it you didn't purchase the shotgun?
    Last edited by senior1; 12-25-2010 at 09:13 AM.

  6. #6
    2520wcf Guest

    Default

    Given ktr's description of the mechanism, I suspect that Walther actually made most of the gun (possibly not the barrel tubes, which were usually sourced from a company that specialized in tubes). The design just doesn't sound like most of the "stock" actions that were bought by many German firms and finished under their names.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    150

    Default

    Ktr, how can you tell whether the trigger guard and butt stock/pistol grip caps are bakelite or actual horn, as Walther advertised them to be?

    I looked at the butt-stock and pistol grip cap of my Walther SxS. There are no markings on the reverse but filing marks are present. I don't believe Walther was using bakelite at this time for these parts. They were using Trolit and Trolitan for molding or injection molding (PPK grips). A butt-stock cap of a Walther Mod. I rifle is marked quite clearly with Trolit and is in the same configuration as the SxS butt-stock cap.

    Last edited by senior1; 12-25-2010 at 09:12 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    461

    Default

    The material could be the Trolit material you refer to if that is what they could use to injection mould with and not so with Bakelite.
    There are no markings on the back side of the parts I've seen. The material is brittle, and cuts, files like Bakelite.

    The trigger guard on the Walther SxS actually has a steel skeleton reinforcement inside the form and the black material (Bakelite, Trolit, etc) is formed around it.
    If you remove the guard you can usually see the steel form peeking out from a spot or two along the back side of the tang that didn't quite form completely during the moulding process.
    Also the front end that hooks into the trigger plate is steel and just looking at it out of the gun will tell you that the part is moulded around a steel internal form.

    It cracks easily. Even with the steel reinforecement inside the triggerguard, they usually have a crack or two in the material. One around the tang screw hole is not uncommon,,and one around the front of the bow isn't either. A bit of a twist to the guard or a bump will crack the material.. Some of that brittleness may have come about from age of course.

    The safety button is made of the same material and also has a steel inner form for strength.
    I'd guess that the butt plate was also made from the same material judging from the ones I've seen and had apart, but your thoughts on the Trolit material for the butt plate and grip caps would make more sense if they were already using it for other firearms.

    The Walter shotgun I had (I recently sold it) was a Model WSF, that's the Field or standard Model and does not have a grip cap,,just rounded wood forming the grip. The 3 other models all had a grip cap as standard.

    A Walther catalog from the era (a reprint in my case) says 'The trigger guard is of black artificial horn,...'
    In the same catalog section: In a model by model listing, it simply says "horn trigger guard and heel plate".

    They don't mention the safety button as made from an artificial material like the trigger guard is..


    Another bit of information I thought of. In the Walther catalog, they make a point of noteing that the barrels are joined with 'hard solder' (high temp silver solder in my mind) and not soft solder. Soft solder being an 'inferior' method of joining the barrels (their words).
    On one Walther SxS I worked on a few years back,,another WSF Model, it had a loose top rib for approx 5 inches back near the breech. I decided to soft solder it back into place as it was loose enough to easily clean and tin the area. When applying the heat with the rib clamped into position, I noticed that the solder ahead of it going down the barrels also melted and flowed nicely. The ribs were soft soldered on this one originally,,not hard/silver soldered as the factory info stated.
    That's the only Walther SxS rib I've ever resoldered so I can't say they were all soft soldered.
    Usually the reason for silver soldering is so hot salt blueing can be done to the barrel sets as opposed to the more labor intensive rust blueing. Hotsalt blueing started coming into common industrial firearms use in Germany in the mid 1930's.
    Last edited by ktr; 12-19-2010 at 01:54 PM. Reason: barrel info added

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    150

    Default

    Thank you for the very informative explanation. I should have tested the trigger guard before opening mouth and inserting foot. A magnet stuck like glue.
    Last edited by senior1; 12-25-2010 at 09:12 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    150

    Default

    Is there any way to determine viewing externally if the Walther shotgun has the double sear arrangement?
    Last edited by senior1; 12-25-2010 at 09:12 AM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    461

    Default

    Looking at the side panel/flat of the action,,,there is a screw (with a smaller lock screw) in the center,,,that is the hammer pivot screw.

    In the upper corner behind the breech, there is another screw,,,that is the working sear pivot.

    If there is a duplex sear (safety sear) in the particular gun,, there will be a third screw in the lower, rear corner of the side panel. That will be the pivot screw for the safety sear.

    The duplex/safety sear fits and works like many common SxS working sears, off of the bottom edge of the hammer.

    However, the working sear in this case is an overhanging design in the Walther,,a common type in many German & Austrian shotguns, working off the curved back edge of the hammer.
    Safety sear designs in box lock actions are rare. You see them much more often in high end side lock SxS's

    Pulling the trigger(s) lifts the safety sear clear of it's notch in the bottom edge of the hammer while at the same time pulling the working sear and allowing the hammer to drop. Parts must be carefully designed and/or hand fitted to make things happen correctly w/o an overly long trigger pull to get the job done. The Walthers look as if very little hand fitting was necessary to assemble the shotguns. Precise mfg'r and design no doubt.

    The safety sear never has a hard engagement,,instead standing just clear of the notch so the working sear can engage.
    It's there to catch the hammer should the working sear fail for some reason.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    150

    Default

    Ktr, thank you very much for the explanation. Then my Walther here would be a WSFD model.



    Note the receiver has the remains of a case-hardening finish. That was the alternative finish besides blueing.
    Last edited by senior1; 12-25-2010 at 09:11 AM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    461

    Default

    It is indeed! A very nice condition shotgun for sure.

    The only grade they cataloged beyound the WSFD was WSFD/L

    If you ordered the barrels of "Krupp Special 'Three Ring' Steel" (instead of the standard Krupp steel that they were all made from regardless),,your barrels would have the Krupp 3 Ring Steel logo stamped on them (3 intertwined circles/rings). This stamping is generally seen on the top side of the barrel (each tube) and not under the fore end wood. They were very proud of their product!

    The WSF/L (second grade) and up are listed as 'Casehardened action' but not Casehardened finish., Might be just symantics.
    All the non-blued guns I've seen had a 'coin' finish on them. Most probably the colors removed after the color/hardening process. The casehardened color finish is beautiful on a SxS. Can't be many around like yours.

    Walther did offer options of course, so most anything was available.
    One WSF I had had checkered 'ears' on the butt stock,,but I was somewhat suspect of their originality.
    Barrels were available anywhere from 24 to 30",,I don't recall what the metric measurements are in that!

    One odd thing they did catalog was a rear folding leaf rifle sight in the top rib on the WSF and WSFD "..to make use of the double barreled shotgun with ball cartridges".
    In typical German style, the sight was made to flip up under spring pressure once a small slide on the right hand side of the forend was activated by the shooters fingers on his left hand. They assumed everyone shot right handed I guess!
    I've never seen one, but given the same gimicky type of rear sights found on drillings from the time, I'm not surprised.

    Congrats on a beautiful shotgun. A rare one,,enjoy!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    /Free^State\
    Posts
    18,256

    Default

    just a guess but with Sauer furnishing may gun companies barreled actions in the white---
    couldn't this been Walters source FOR the action shown, looks to be shaped like JP Sauer royal, Huskquvarna's, Simson and many others. that used these same actions.
    Last edited by DK PHILLIPS; 12-25-2010 at 09:01 PM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    150

    Default

    The only problem I have with Walther procuring the actions from J.P. Sauer or Sauer selling them was the extreme animosity between the two companies in the early 1930s. This dislike was described and documented in the Cate/vn Gjin/Krause series on the J.P. Sauer company pocket pistols.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    150

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ktr View Post
    It is indeed! A very nice condition shotgun for sure..........
    The WSF/L (second grade) and up are listed as 'Casehardened action' but not Casehardened finish., Might be just symantics.
    All the non-blued guns I've seen had a 'coin' finish on them. Most probably the colors removed after the color/hardening process. The casehardened color finish is beautiful on a SxS. Can't be many around like yours.....
    I think it is a question of semantics, but more probably whether you use an English language Walther catalogue or another retailer like Stoeger.

    The original German text in a 1932 AKAH catalog indicates the lowest grade WSF is provided with "Garnitur schwarz brűniert", but the better grade WSF and the WSFDs offered "Garnitur bunt gehärtet". Garnitur is loosely translated as trimmings or finish? But whereas the lowest grade offered a dark blued "Garnitur", the higher grades offered (in translation) multi-colored case-hardening. I think the descriptions are refering to the coloration of finish of the gun, not the physical hardening of the action steel.

    This difference in finish is also described in the 1936 Walther anniversary catalog, as well as a 1937 Geco catalog, but there the word "Kasten" is used instead of "Garnitur". No doubt the case-hardening color was not well done and has disappeared from the exposed parts of most examples of the guns. But this coloration is still visible covered parts like the underside of the fore stock and the interior of this action.



    I enjoy very much this discussion.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    296

    Default

    At least up to WW2, all German made break-open gun frames made of steel were case-hardened after engraving by the leather-/charcoal process for surface hardness. More often than not the irregular colours were removed by pickling afterwards, as a "coin finish" showed the engraving better. Case-colouring just was not "in" then!

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    150

    Default

    Kuduae, I am just trying to understand what was advertised as against what was sold. If the colors of case hardening were more often than not removed by pickling as you write, then why would Walther go to the trouble of advertsing for all those years that the better quality SxSs could be purchased with a colorful case hardening finish on all the fittings instead of the plain vanilla blueing? Why differentiate in the sales brochures between the dark bluing and the multi-colored case hardening if it was to be removed with a dip in the pickle tank?

    I checked in with Jim Cate, author of the recent book on J.P.Sauer sporting arms, and he informed me that blueing and case hardening coloration were the most common finishes on Sauer long guns of the pre-1945 period. "French Grey" was an optional finish. Perhaps this is what you are refering to as "coin finish"?
    Last edited by senior1; 12-27-2010 at 03:41 PM.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    150

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ktr View Post
    Another bit of information I thought of. In the Walther catalog, they make a point of noteing that the barrels are joined with 'hard solder' (high temp silver solder in my mind) and not soft solder. Soft solder being an 'inferior' method of joining the barrels (their words).

    On one Walther SxS I worked on a few years back,,another WSF Model, it had a loose top rib for approx 5 inches back near the breech. I decided to soft solder it back into place as it was loose enough to easily clean and tin the area. When applying the heat with the rib clamped into position, I noticed that the solder ahead of it going down the barrels also melted and flowed nicely. The ribs were soft soldered on this one originally,,not hard/silver soldered as the factory info stated.That's the only Walther SxS rib I've ever resoldered so I can't say they were all soft soldered.
    Usually the reason for silver soldering is so hot salt blueing can be done to the barrel sets as opposed to the more labor intensive rust blueing. Hotsalt blueing started coming into common industrial firearms use in Germany in the mid 1930's.
    Ktr, check your catalog again will you. In a couple of the English language ones I have, the advertising pointed out that "Hard solder is used for coupling the barrels in inferior guns." Tin was used on Walther shotguns. This is also confirmed in the 1936 anniversary Walther booklet as well as a discussion in a 1934 issue of Kugel und Schrot.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    461

    Default

    I will do so. It's entirely possible I got it backwards! I am dyslexic,seriously,, and that's just the thing it does to alot of us. Makes for some interesting situations at times, most harmless thankfully.
    I will dig out the catalog and re-read the text carefully and get back to you.
    You probably just solved my (non-existing) mystery!

    Added..
    I checked,,and you are correct,, my reprint also states (when I read more carefully) as your sources do that the Walther bbls were joined with 'tin', and that the hard solder was used on guns of 'inferior' quality. I had reversed the facts in my post.

    Thank you for catching that and pointing it out to me. It's not the first time it's happened!
    Last edited by ktr; 01-09-2011 at 06:54 PM. Reason: added info..

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Upstate Ohio
    Posts
    7

    Default

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DBLweb.jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	110.7 KB 
ID:	514352Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Walther Model 80 web.jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	198.6 KB 
ID:	493778Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Walther 80 web.jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	162.4 KB 
ID:	493776Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MVC-179S.JPG 
Views:	6 
Size:	37.3 KB 
ID:	509820
    Thanks for the detailed info already posted here:
    Mine are two minty SxS Walther W.S.F. (Model 80) Shotguns 16/65 Ser. # 1445 and base upon (ktr Post 461) it's dated 10.35...with a WaA359 acceptance stamp on the stock... The other is a W.S.F. SxS 16/65 Ser. #498 dated 08.33 (#495 is offered for trade, for a 12ga SxS Walther) Both have 29.4" barrels...
    I also had the Semi-Auto Walther Patent Shotgun and I am very familiar with it and the process of re-assembly...
    I have at least 2 two dozen pictures of parts assembly and origin instructions available at reasonable cost...
    Last edited by ohdsmith; 02-14-2012 at 08:24 PM. Reason: update

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    150

    Default

    Hello, thanks for adding your serial number to the data base. Does yours have 720mm barrels? And what is the chamber size? 16/70 or 16/65? Thank you.

    The Walther model designation was WSF. The Model 80 designation was Stoeger Arms' catalog number for the shotgun. Wish you well in finding a 12 ga. example.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •