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Straw purchase

3K views 47 replies 20 participants last post by  DK PHILLIPS In Memoriam 
#1 ·
Yesterday, I was with a buddy who was doing a transfer at a pawn shop. The pawn shop has a so-so reputation about buying/selling stolen stuff but they have a high turnover of firearms and cheap transfer fees.

As I was going through a box of unidentified magazines, there was a couple buying a hand gun and filling out the 4473. The guy was all tatted up, rough looking and talking loudly. The girl, it was obvious by her body language, that she didn't want to be there.

When she came to the question of who the actual buy is, she asked rather loudly, "What do I put here, am I the actual buyer?" in a tone that was, well, sassy. The counter guy turned around and the guy with her, said in an un amused way said, "Yeah, you are."

Kind of puts everybody in a bad position, doesn't it?
 
#3 ·
I'd have called the police and/or ATF.
 
#6 ·
Say, I called the police, it's a non-emergency call on a Saturday, 30 mins before the shop closes. The response time for a non emergency call for APD is horrendous. Same thing for the ATF. Am I going to stick around for what could be hours in the parking lot in 100+ degree heat? No.

While, in my opinion, I think it was probably a straw purchase, what do I say when I call the operator? Do I say, "There was a couple buying a firearm and I think there was a straw purchase because I saw an odd couple and heard a conversation"? I could be wrong in thinking the guy was a felon, when he could just be some dude who likes looking like a thug.

When I left, they had just finished the paperwork and my buddy had gotten the OK - so I didn't stick around to see if it was a sale, delay, or no-go.

Is it my responsibility, or the guy behind the counter to make the judgment call?
 
#7 ·
The guy selling it is responsible. You have zero connection to it unless it is yours (consignment) or you are LEO or ATF.
 
#10 ·
Best to report it to the ATF. They'd open an investigation of the shop and you wouldn't have to do anything except tell them of the circumstances.
 
#11 ·
It the shop owner doesn't have the name and address of the "straw buyer" any investigation will go nowhere without a ton of effort. Won't happen.

The shop owner is obliged to halt a transaction if he has ANY suspicion that it is a straw sale. I read that in one of the ATF e-newsletters.
 
#12 ·
No good turn goes un punished...and involvement is a decision only you can make during, or later after the deal.
its a gray area of personal concerns, values, overt actions we choose, or pholosphy of our life's purposes not reacted on in time or too late to cause but the gun shop owner much unforeseen troubles?
 
#13 ·
I can't believe we're having this conversation. Op is laboring under premise of a preconceived misconception of his role in the affairs of complete strangers. Rumors about the pawn shop's "reputation" on the street? A "tuff looking guy" with a tattoo collection? A crabby woman with an attitude that day who may or may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer? My old grandpa use to say, "Boy, you mind your own business or the Regulators will."
 
#15 ·
You mean to tell me you have NO situational awareness to anything that goes on around you? You wouldn't pay attention to a loud talking tattooed gangbanger looking guy? Must be nice to live in your world where one can be oblivious.

I, on the other hand, live in the real world and in one of the most dangerous violent cities in the nation with a huge resent increase in crime. I can't afford NOT to pay attention.

BTW, maybe I misunderstood, but, I didn't know if you all saying you'd do something are speaking from the perspective of he customer or the FFL.
 
#36 ·
There ain't enough popcorn for this thread. Colloquial legalities aside, this argument has been rubbed into the ground so hard it just popped out of the dirt in China. If the check comes back clean, then its a good sale. To deny based on action, attitude, or appearance is discriminatory to say the least. The old woman and the store owner both did EXACTLY the right thing. And , the second bit of sagacity posited here was MIDE YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
 
#25 ·
If I were in that situation, I'd have turned around and walked out, and that would have been the end of it. Its up to the store employees to be watchful for straw purchases, etc. The instant you put your nose into the situation, you'd likely get a healthy dose of "go F yourself" by one or more of the actors or the store clerk, if he got annoyed that some customer was trying to tell him how to do his job. Nope, I had a scenario go down with me once, where I got involved in something, but for a completely different situation mind, and was bluntly told to "go F myself", so these days I just stay out of things that aren't my business.
 
#26 ·
While we're on the subject......
Older woman comes in today and wants to buy a 1911 gift for her husband, said he surprised her with a pistol last year. The owner and manager said they couldn't do it, it would be a straw sale. I kind of squinted at the guys but did not interfere as I'm the low man on the totem pose, but the one with the most gun and FFL (03) experience. She said ok, paid a 100% deposit, but the husband now has to come in to receive the pistol. I questioned them after she left, thinking that there was no belief at all that she was purchasing it for a prohibited person, and that it was not a straw sale. They insisted that that was how it was explained to them by the area ATF agent. I shrugged and let it go.
What say you.......straw sale/don't do it, or would not have been an issue, make the sale?
 
#27 ·
that is one of those fine line type things, that is\could be interpreted differently by the local ATF folks,

husband wife should be able to purchase for each other,,
however, I know of a husband wife that the husband was a felon,, so what do you do in that situation?
 
#28 ·
A gift isn't a straw purchase. This is NOT a gray area and the instance above illustrates ATF agent's ignorance of their agency's regulations.

FEDERAL
FIREARMS
REGULATIONS
REFERENCE
GUIDE
2005

Straw Purchases, page 164

Where a person purchases a firearm
with the intent of making a gift of the
firearm to another person, the person
making the purchase is indeed the true
purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
in these instances. In the above example,
if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
lawfully have completed Form 4473.
The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases.
The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.
 
#30 ·
The cop would have won if his uncle didn't pay him for the gun. That is what turned the uncle into the actual buyer instead of the cop and made it an illegal straw sale instead of a legal gift. No BATFE "solution" or gift card needed.

Nonetheless, this is a case where the law is an idiot.
 
#31 ·
Agreed jjk, on both counts.

Had the cop bought the gun with his own money, then "sold" it to his uncle,, legal.

Had the cop bought it with his own money and gave it to his uncle,, legal.

Had both of them stayed Shut-The-Heck-Up about "transfers of money", no-one would ever have known, and no-one would have gone to prison.
The Triple S Rule of dealing with Cougars here in Oz (Mountain Lions). Shoot, Shovel, Shut-up.
Shooting one is illegal unless you are being attacked, someone else is being attacked, or it is attacking livestock of yours.
The 3rd "S" is the one no-one seems to be able to follow.


Yes, the law is also faulty.
The law was written to prevent (or punish) a legal purchaser from buying a gun in leu of a prohibited person (in order to get the prohib. pers. a gun), yet it punishes legal purchasers from buying a gun for a legal purchaser if the legal purchaser actually gave the buyer money and basically says "pick me up a "X" while you are there".
If both people can legally buy a gun, it shouldn't matter a bit who actually pays for it and when. No other laws broken, no other crime committed, no other harm done.
Same for every other purchase you can possibly make today, knives, cars, even booze, let alone food, dog treats and cat litter, except firearms.
 
#32 · (Edited)
If your in a gun shop in my area....
get in a three way arugnment about "me" or anyone else buying a personal gun!

Your in "my" business, in my conversation, in my face....????
then the deal falls through....
Further Embarrassing "me" to the owner, people in the store....!!!

.....if your wrong on your hunch .. some people,
your no longer in a gray area because it just turned Bright Red!

yes right is right and WRONG ......is permently wrong!
 
#33 ·
OK, just thought of another variation:
Couple comes in, possibly married. They talk about getting a gun for the "wife". She picks it out and does the paperwork. He hands me his card to pay.
Issue/problem/concern?
 
#34 ·
Again,,,,,,,,,,,, with the screwball interpretation of the Supreme Court, him paying for it is "buying" it, yet he's "buying" it "for her" and SHE is running the 4473. It's a Straw Purchase, even if neither of them are "prohibited persons".

To do it legally she has to use HER CARD (even if it is a Joint Account) to pay for it or HE has to complete the 4473, and HE pays for it, and "gifts" it (or sells it) to her.


jonny,, it isn't really that hard, and there's a million variations you can try to come up with,,,,, but if you just think it through, it's usually quite clear.

The buyer, must use HIS OWN MONEY AND run the 4473 FOR HIM (or her).

If I give you a grand for your birthday, that's YOUR money, not mine. Spend it as you see fit.
If you buy a gun with it, fine.
If you buy a gun with it and decide to either sell it to me OR just give it to me, for MY birthday for instance, fine.
If I give you a grand to buy me a Garand, that is a Straw Purchase, no matter my legal or prohibited status, no matter our relationshipal status.

If I know you are headed to a gun show and I tell you "If you run across an "X" at an acceptable price/condition, buy it and I will buy it from you, THAT is LEGAL (unless you have reason to believe I an a Prohibited Person) because YOU are buying it, with your money, not mine, and your decision later to sell it to me is, again, LEGAL (unless I am not legal to buy/possess).
 
#37 · (Edited)
Go to: NICS web sight....I did explains everything, QA area. Other things of interest.

my Yaman friend needs a gun for store protection....called me. A store robbed 8 miles away worried him.
we went to one of my guns shops..picked out tarsus 9mm. Ammo ...
we have been delayed!
 
#38 · (Edited)
He was turned down?
Gun Store showed no paper work the NICS turn down.
guess this ended it?
can he challenge or have the information open for review?

can buy enough gas at his petro station to burn up the town....

But turned down on purchase for a gun to protect same station?

that being said:

I was wondering is he restricted from buying a used gun locally, from gun traders.
I've never read about or known any one in this situation.....
i dont have any advice, he doesn't want any legal trouble....?
 
#40 ·
I wouldn't have done squat. I don't own the gun shop and it's not my duty to tell the man behind the counter how to do his job. If it's a straw purchase & the gunshop gets busted, it's not my duty to have corrected their actions to comply with the law.

Call the local cops? over a Federal Violation? Seriously?

There are informants, squealers and tattletales out there - usually people who want to prove they know more about something happening than they really do. Interjecting themselves into a situation that's not their business can bode ill for them.

So, all you junior crimefighters, put away your capes and masks and enter the real world of "it's nunya bidness". If you feel that mankind struggles and can't succeed without your intervention, then go volunteer doing patient transportation at a local hospital or maybe donate a pint of blood.
 
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