What are the differences between Polish and Soviet/Russian Kalashnikovs?

[KVL]

I recall that Peter Kokalis once said that Polish Kalashnikovs were among the most distinct of the Eastern European Kalashnikovs, if I'm not mistaken. So I was wondering what are the differences between the Polish PMK/KbK AK-47 and the KbK AKM and the Soviet originals?

[anarchy]

I recall that Peter Kokalis once said that Polish Kalashnikovs were among the most distinct of the Eastern European Kalashnikovs, if I'm not mistaken. So I was wondering what are the differences between the Polish PMK/KbK AK-47 and the KbK AKM and the Soviet originals?

Well, not to be too negative, but I'm somewhat skeptical of what Kokalis says...........

[jjk308]

Maybe he's thinking of the Tantal?

[AKBLUE]

I agree the Tantal is quite different than most AK74's.
But overall there are various differences in design by country of origin. Yugoslavian rifles have a number of distinctive features and mechanicals that differ from the soviet original. The Hungarian AMD65 is distinctive as well.
Mainly, Piolish AK variants are not very different than Soviet standard except the AK74 Tantal.

[Comrade Antibiotika]

Tantal has a number of parts that are not interchangable with other AK-74s. I am guessing that is what he was thinking of. Fit and finish is better than some eastern block stuff but i don't think it's such a big difference it's instantly recognizable.

[TW1Kell]

Besides the obvious addition of the grenade launcher, and the distinctive 5 color finish of the WZ 88, the Tantal also has a left-side selector lever that offers semi, 3-shot burst, and F/A, when in standard Polish Army configuration. As a Spoertr for US import, that selector becomes an amphibious (ambidextrous for you non-Marines out there!) safety.

I wish mine was standard Polish. I love 3-shot burst! haha!

[KVL]

Maybe he's thinking of the Tantal?

I suspect that to probably be the case. However, I was wondering about the AK-47 and AKM. I was curious as to what differences, even if minor, they had with the Soviet originals.

[vladimir]

Kokalis is way off alot of the times. He tells people to drive out a rolll pin and remove the screw to remove the gas tube on the tantal ...LOL .He obviously had the older model with the screw that acts as a lever .I helped a member here that was trying to follow Kokalis 's incorect instructions . The KBK and the russian milled I have are pretty much identical . Although my kbk is a KBK GH60 . He has to be talking about the Kbk Gh 60 grenade launcher rifle ,Tantal wz88 (5.45 mm) ,Onyks wz89 krinkov style (5.45mm) ,Onyks wz 91 (5.56 mm) , Kbs wz Beryl 96 (5.56 mm) , Kbs wz Mini Beryl 96 krinkov style automatic carbine (5.56 mm) .

[anarchy]

[QUOTE=vladimir;607913]Kokalis is way off alot of the times. He tells people to drive out a rolll pin and remove the screw to remove the gas tube on the tantal ...LOL .He obviously had the older model with the screw that acts as a lever .I helped a member here that was trying to follow Kokalis 's incorect instructions . The KBK and the russian milled I have are pretty much identical . Although my kbk is a KBK GH60 . He has to be talking about the Kbk Gh 60 grenade launcher rifle ,Tantal wz88 (5.45 mm) ,Onyks wz89 krinkov style (5.45mm) ,Onyks wz 91 (5.56 mm) , Kbs wz Beryl 96 (5.56 mm) , Kbs wz Mini Beryl 96 krinkov style automatic carbine (5.56 mm) .[/QUOT

I agree, he is way off a lot of the times. Not only that, but if you read his articles in Shotgun News one wonders if he ever even shoots the guns he is testing. Look through the Shotgun News Treasury Edition Eight and peruse his articles (I think there were like eight or nine). Look at just how many guns that he writes about where he even mentions group size or functioning. Practically none. He never even displays a picture of a group on a target.

Then look through his articles and see how many times he has lifted entire sections from one article and re-used it in another e.g. the history of the M43cartidge, functioning of an AK etc. He won't mention the accuracy or functioning of the weapon he is testing but does manage to regale the reader with tales of daring do when he was in "El Sal" (El Salvador) and strew the article with countless bits of trivia nobody cares about. It appears that his tactic is to spew so much firearm minutia and "there I was" sophistry at people they won't catch the fact that no mention is made of how the firearm actually fires.

Gunwriters; ya gotta luv em':D

[thebohunk]

Despite their "reputation" Pollocks make pretty darn good weapons. And their Navy ain't half bad either

[TW1Kell]

I deleted it. It was totally out-of-place, and I apologize for that. Back to topic:

There are many, many differences, as pointed out, among the various AK variations.

[KVL]

All I wanted was to know whatever differences there were between Polish and Russian AK-47s and AKMs, and that's it. I never intended for this to basically turn into a Kokalis or SF bashing fest.

[Fatherandersonthepaladin]

Basically, the Russian AKs are considered among the best if you go with a Saiga. Polish are considered among the best if you go with a Tantal. There's not a terrible amount of difference between standard models, but there's enough of one to distinguish between the two makes.

[SturmGrenadier]

Can't wait for this Kalashnikov book to be finished.

[KVL]

Basically, the Russian AKs are considered among the best if you go with a Saiga. Polish are considered among the best if you go with a Tantal. There's not a terrible amount of difference between standard models, but there's enough of one to distinguish between the two makes.

Could you please elaborate?

[vladimir]

Well look at this and see the difrences for your self .They are basicly an ak .As is a galil ,but very difrent .As is a Valmet ,also very difrent .

http://www.ak-47.us/Polish_Two.php

[vladimir]

Heres the KBK GN 60 for instance





1) the gn 60 has brackets inletted into the butstock for attachment of a very thick foam filled recoil pad . The recoil from launching of grenades is quite violent .
2) the muzle is tapired (cone shaped) so it seals better with the launcher spiggot
3) has a gas shut off lever on the gasblock . To allow all the gases to be used in the launch and not lost in cycling the action .Therefor making the rifle not operate as a semi automatic and making it nessary to manualy cycle the action.
4) The detent that secures the muzzle nut is longer and has a tab on it that works to help secure the grenade launching sight .
5) the muzle nut is conical shaped (like a funnle) to fit the shape of the unique muzle and wont fit other Ak varients .

Tantal and also shared on some of the latter models being used now .

!) Tantal has a lever on the recoil guide that acts to lock the topcover on so that it does not fly off during the recoil of a grenade launch
2)The tantal muzle device doubles also as a grenade launching spigot .
3) the right side safety lever is diffrent and will not fit other ak varients .
4) There is a left side selector knob that alows automatic ,semi automatic and three shot burst.
5) the upper handguard and tube is 2 seperate parts and will not interchange with other ak varients.
6) there is no side mount optics rail ,but the polish optics rails are very diffrent and actualy replace the rear sight alltogether and use that point as a hinge ,then goes over the topcover and locks down with the recoil spring guide . A very stable rail

[KVL]

Well look at this and see the difrences for your self .They are basicly an ak .As is a galil ,but very difrent .As is a Valmet ,also very difrent .

http://www.ak-47.us/Polish_Two.php

Thanks for the link, but I was mainly interested in the standard AK-47 and AKM. Didn't they have distinct or different (at least somewhat) pistol grips, for instance?
However, the link was indeed very intriguing.

[vladimir]

Theres a difrence in furniture .Otherwise the fixed and folding akm's compairable to date are very similar . The ak is the same .my 2 milled rifles look very similar ,nothing outstanding as far as difrences.The Polish rifles have a burt orange to darker red laminate and a swirled pattern to the bakelite pistolgrips with is very nice looking .they are uniqe in the color .

[rayman1]

The Polish AK does have a smooth laminated wood pistol grip that's a slightly different shape than the Russian smooth laminated pistol grip. And usually the Polish wood grip is a touch more blonde/yellow than the Russian reddish brown grip. But I've seen Polish and Russian wooden grips that seemed to be made out of other wood and were checkered.

The Polish AKM/AKMS is quite similar if not almost exactly like the Russian AKM/AKMS. The differences being a different battle setting character on the rear sight leaf, different palms swells on the lower handguard, different pistol grip colors, and naturally different arsenal markings/serial number style.

Considering Poland probably utilized Russian parts in their early Kalashnikov building until they could manufacture their own, there will be many similarities and ever so slight differences due to Poland's own small aesthetics changes they incorporated.

[vladimir]

Palmswels are very similar .too close to call .The latter date ak74's have a sharper edged swell . Mabe some of the very late akms . best to say these rifles had slight changes especialy the russian models like a lightning cut in the front sight base for later date akm's .Both countrys used hardwood on early aks then both switched at some point to laminate .theres color changes at difrent dates . But as far as major difrences in parts swapability or a change in the standard shared by ak varients ..no difrences there .not till the tantal and its predicessors . Heres an early russian bult from a kit .The above set of pictures shows polish rifles built from kits .

[KVL]

Palmswels are very similar .too close to call .The latter date ak74's have a sharper edged swell . Mabe some of the very late akms . best to say these rifles had slight changes especialy the russian models like a lightning cut in the front sight base for later date akm's .Both countrys used hardwood on early aks then both switched at some point to laminate .theres color changes at difrent dates . But as far as major difrences in parts swapability or a change in the standard shared by ak varients ..no difrences there .not till the tantal and its predicessors . Heres an early russian bult from a kit .The above set of pictures shows polish rifles built from kits .

Any differences in trunnions for example? The KbK AKM has Romanian style rear trunnions, doesn't it? Is that also true for the front trunnions?

[vladimir]

The russian trunions change by date .The polish and romanian are almost identical . My 70 russian has a rear trunion like the romanian .it changed in and around 1972 to a forked style rear trunion . It takes 1 long rivet that goes completly from side to side and 2 shorter rivets , much like the hungarian SA85 . Front trunions are near identical except for factory markings of course .

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Man, Vladimir, you have some really nice rifles!

If I could score ones as nice as the ones you have it would almost be enough to make me leave this place and move to America. Thanks for sharing the photos...

[vladimir]

The polish fixed stock is actualy now owned by another member here .I sold it .They are great funto build . Thanks for the compliment .

But to keep on topic heres a Tantal .

[Fatherandersonthepaladin]

To elaborate on my earlier post, basically the only differences in AKs other than the Russian and Polish variants are the included components and accessories. The major exception being American AKs which are, in fact, very high quality as I've been told. I haven't personally experienced the American ones, so I can't say definitively yes or no. The only ones you should really avoid like the plague are the Romanian WASR series, which I personally find to be somewhat crude. If you can afford it, go with a SAIGA or a Tantal, both if which are extremely high quality. I have personally never dealt with the GP75, but I've heard good things about it. I won't say go for it or avoid it because I have never even seen one in person, but if the rumors are true, then you'll get a good gun for the money. I personally think there's alot to be said for Maadi's as well, I have no complaints on that rifle, having shot about 80 rounds through them personally. Each manufacturer is different, though, and there are even differences between years of manufacture, and even sometimes differences between examples from the same factory and year. I always recommend buying from people you know or trying to get some kind of a warranty just incase the gun sucks. If you know the person, you might get lucky and get a "Try it before you buy it" deal, but good luck with that one. If you do get lucky and find a SAIGA for a good price, which I have no idea what the range of it is anymore, jump on it. Same if you find a Tantal for a good price, in the $300-$400 range. On a side note: That GN60 is gorgeous Vlad, where'd you find her?

[KVL]

Theres a difrence in furniture .Otherwise the fixed and folding akm's compairable to date are very similar . The ak is the same .my 2 milled rifles look very similar ,nothing outstanding as far as difrences.The Polish rifles have a burt orange to darker red laminate and a swirled pattern to the bakelite pistolgrips with is very nice looking .they are uniqe in the color .

Any differences in shape between the Polish pistol grips and the Russian?

[vladimir]

To elaborate on my earlier post, basically the only differences in AKs other than the Russian and Polish variants are the included components and accessories. The major exception being American AKs which are, in fact, very high quality as I've been told. I haven't personally experienced the American ones, so I can't say definitively yes or no. The only ones you should really avoid like the plague are the Romanian WASR series, which I personally find to be somewhat crude. If you can afford it, go with a SAIGA or a Tantal, both if which are extremely high quality. I have personally never dealt with the GP75, but I've heard good things about it. I won't say go for it or avoid it because I have never even seen one in person, but if the rumors are true, then you'll get a good gun for the money. I personally think there's alot to be said for Maadi's as well, I have no complaints on that rifle, having shot about 80 rounds through them personally. Each manufacturer is different, though, and there are even differences between years of manufacture, and even sometimes differences between examples from the same factory and year. I always recommend buying from people you know or trying to get some kind of a warranty just incase the gun sucks. If you know the person, you might get lucky and get a "Try it before you buy it" deal, but good luck with that one. If you do get lucky and find a SAIGA for a good price, which I have no idea what the range of it is anymore, jump on it. Same if you find a Tantal for a good price, in the $300-$400 range. On a side note: That GN60 is gorgeous Vlad, where'd you find her?

The GN60 is a was brougt in with the so called PLO kits. It was in very good condition but soaked in something resembling motor oil .It smelled horrible .it was missing the pistolgrip and the topcover . I had a friend in Poland I met on another ak web site secure a new grip and topcover The wood is restored and the kit was built on a custom receiver from fireing line that was a prototype for the receiver they made changes to . It was ingraved with polish selector markings and blued to original color . To be honest I havent shot her other than launching a practice grenade with it .

[vladimir]

The polish pistolgrip is slightly larger than the russian .

[Fatherandersonthepaladin]

The GN60 is a was brougt in with the so called PLO kits. It was in very good condition but soaked in something resembling motor oil .It smelled horrible .it was missing the pistolgrip and the topcover . I had a friend in Poland I met on another ak web site secure a new grip and topcover The wood is restored and the kit was built on a custom receiver from fireing line that was a prototype for the receiver they made changes to . It was ingraved with polish selector markings and blued to original color . To be honest I havent shot her other than launching a practice grenade with it .

I don't think I'd be able to keep myself from shooting that rifle if I owned it. It's absolutely drop dead gorgeous. I wish I was lucky enough to find one in an affordable price range. I applaud your taste in guns Vlad.

[BWilhelm]

For what it's worth, I ave a matching Polish underfolder dated 1983. Other than the stamps, I can see no difference between it and a Soviet one I looked at.

[vladimir]

I don't think I'd be able to keep myself from shooting that rifle if I owned it. It's absolutely drop dead gorgeous. I wish I was lucky enough to find one in an affordable price range. I applaud your taste in guns Vlad.

It was alot of fun shooting the practice grenade .I think my grenade was an Israeli practice grenade . There is alot more recoil from grenade launching than just shooting a standard round .Even with the thick factory pad It was realy hard . Too bad we cracked the grenade after 3 launches . I have the kit and the all the accesories with it .I was trying to figure out the calculations so I could see if I could get her dead on with the grenades. I just had to do the GN60 as close as possible because there are so few around ,even less than russian milled kits .I wouldnt even know how to put a price on it.

[KVL]

The Polish AK does have a smooth laminated wood pistol grip that's a slightly different shape than the Russian smooth laminated pistol grip. And usually the Polish wood grip is a touch more blonde/yellow than the Russian reddish brown grip. But I've seen Polish and Russian wooden grips that seemed to be made out of other wood and were checkered.

The Polish AKM/AKMS is quite similar if not almost exactly like the Russian AKM/AKMS. The differences being a different battle setting character on the rear sight leaf, different palms swells on the lower handguard, different pistol grip colors, and naturally different arsenal markings/serial number style.

Considering Poland probably utilized Russian parts in their early Kalashnikov building until they could manufacture their own, there will be many similarities and ever so slight differences due to Poland's own small aesthetics changes they incorporated.

Didn't Polish Kalashnikovs have a unique spring-loaded heat shield to prevent contact with a heated barrel?

[vladimir]

Didn't Polish Kalashnikovs have a unique spring-loaded heat shield to prevent contact with a heated barrel?

The Tantal does,and the others that followed . Ak and AKM no

[555th]

All I wanted was to know whatever differences there were between Polish and Russian AK-47s and AKMs, and that's it. I never intended for this to basically turn into a Kokalis or SF bashing fest.

Both country's models are very similar, besides the obvious arsenal markings and furniture it's hard to tell them apart.

[JFR454]

Here is another Tantal

[KVL]

The Tantal does,and the others that followed . Ak and AKM no

Joe Poyer's book said that the AK's and AKM's handguards had that. I'm guessing he was wrong.

[rayman1]

Joe Poyer's book said that the AK's and AKM's handguards had that. I'm guessing he was wrong.

Perhaps others may like it but iI didn't care for it much. I tossed it long ago due to a myriad of mistakes in it. Do yourself a favor - if you're doing some extended research on the subject of the Kalashnikov (which I believe you are), get Tokoi's Kalashnikov book with the English translation. Together with that, and some of the other decent reference books, they provide a nice wealth of information.

You're a member of TheAKForum - go here to download Tokoi's book:
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=54750

For those that aren't, it looks like you can get the download of it here:
http://rapidshare.com/files/10163774...se_AK_Book.rar

And the English translation:
http://rapidshare.com/files/101638191/ak-t.rar

[vladimir]

Joe Poyer's book said that the AK's and AKM's handguards had that. I'm guessing he was wrong.

He was wrong .Polish Tantal ,Beryl and latter models definitly have a heat sheild with a bakelite or polymer handguard lower and the ak47 and Akm do not wich have wood lowers .

Russian -bulgarian ak74 ,RPK74 , krinkov have a heat sheild as well on polymer stocks, wood stocked i dont think so . Someone else may have that answer but I think not . Wood stocked ak and akm do not .
The bulgarians used a bakelite lower HG on some latter ak47's that had no heat sheild .

[SturmGrenadier]

Only thing good about the Poyer book is the cover photo....once you open it you might as well have been handed a media guide by Baghdad Bob.

[KVL]

The Polish AK does have a smooth laminated wood pistol grip that's a slightly different shape than the Russian smooth laminated pistol grip. And usually the Polish wood grip is a touch more blonde/yellow than the Russian reddish brown grip. But I've seen Polish and Russian wooden grips that seemed to be made out of other wood and were checkered.

The Polish AKM/AKMS is quite similar if not almost exactly like the Russian AKM/AKMS. The differences being a different battle setting character on the rear sight leaf, different palms swells on the lower handguard, different pistol grip colors, and naturally different arsenal markings/serial number style.

Considering Poland probably utilized Russian parts in their early Kalashnikov building until they could manufacture their own, there will be many similarities and ever so slight differences due to Poland's own small aesthetics changes they incorporated.

Do you have any pics of the various pistol grips?

[KVL]

Only thing good about the Poyer book is the cover photo....once you open it you might as well have been handed a media guide by Baghdad Bob.

So it's not a terribly reliable source then? i have it.

[rayman1]

Definately discard the Poyer book if that's what you're using solely for reference. In short, his book blows and appears he hand-jammed it over a weekend with only using commercially imported Kalashnikovs as his reference.

Get yourself the Tokoi book.