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  1. #1
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    Default RELOAD: 8x58 RD (Danish Krag & Swedish Rolling Block)

    Several postings, dispersed over the years within the two Scandinavian boards, are treating reloads for the 8x58RD. I try to re-assemble several of these in this new imported thread.

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    rockfarm
    Gunboards Member
    USA
    14 Posts
    Posted - 01/30/2005 : 3:31:36 PM
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    just got an 89 rolling block and have ordered 8x58r brass and a set of dies from buffalo arms. looked at Dutchman's rolling block pages to get started (great info on these). am interested in shooting cast bullets and looking for reduced in addition to full power loads.
    what loads work well in these?


    jp
    Gunboards Super Premium Member
    Tuvalu
    524 Posts
    Posted - 02/03/2005 : 1:47:11 PM
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    Sorry I can't help, but I have been hoping someone would answer since I am getting ready to try mine out soon. I get the impression that bore size can vary a lot in these rifles so good luck finding a cast bullet mould to fit; my bore is about .3255 but I have seen posts of much smaller all the way up to .328.
    So far my only experience is with jacketed loads in a 1889/24 Danish Krag carbine. It loves 175 gr. spitzer flat bases and XMR 4350 powder.


    clayws
    Gunboards Member
    16 Posts
    Posted - 02/03/2005 : 7:17:42 PM
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    I'm also hoping to work up a load for my M89. I am interested in bullet weights between 196 and 240 grains. If I can get reasonable accuracy I would like to use my rolling to hunt elk (wapiti) and deer in timber. Any info would be greatly appreciated.


    CrufflerJJ
    Gunboards Member
    USA
    46 Posts
    Posted - 02/05/2005 : 12:18:30 AM
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    quote:
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    Originally posted by clayws

    I'm also hoping to work up a load for my M89. I am interested in bullet weights between 196 and 240 grains. If I can get reasonable accuracy I would like to use my rolling to hunt elk (wapiti) and deer in timber. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

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    If you're working up loads for the 8x58RD, be careful since some powders are "positional", not giving consistent ignition if it's not against the primer.

    I use a load recommended to me by a certain Dutchman type individual. Using a ~165 grain lead (gas checked) bullet, 28-30 grains of Reloder 7, it works very well in my 8x58RD sporter.

    I've also READ about (but not tried) the following:

    220gr cast bullet (Doudna)
    22gr SR4759
    mv about 1500fps

    I get bullets from Wayne Doudna, who's a true gentleman. His website is:
    http://www.ltdcustomcastbullets.com/web/index.php

    Also make sure to anneal the case mouths/necks before loading the first time, or your expensive brass will quickly crack on you.

    rockfarm
    Gunboards Member
    USA
    14 Posts
    Posted - 02/06/2005 : 6:04:18 PM
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    Thanks much Jeff. i'll be buying some of the 220gr cast bullets from Wayne shortly.

    i got some brass and bullets yesterday and loaded a couple.
    used .324 210g hard cast bullets from buffalo arms over 17g of 2400.

    shot these this morning and they worked fine at 50 yards (had to shoot in the backyard).
    point of impact was about a foot low and 8 inches to the right but the three shots grouped within 3 inches using our old SAAB as a rest.

    will work some up loads with 2400 and try the RL7 over the next couple of weeks and let you all know how it goes.

    thanks for the tip about annealing. at the price of this brass, i need it to last awhile!


    clayws
    Gunboards Member
    16 Posts
    Posted - 02/06/2005 : 8:58:09 PM
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    Jeff, many thanks for the detailed information.

    Is there a practical reason for using cast bullets? I was hoping to work up a load with which I would feel comforable hunting elk (at woods ranges.) Something like 200 grains at 2400 fps, or 220 at 2200.


    Dutchman
    Moderator - Swedish Military Firearms Forum
    USA
    1439 Posts
    Posted - 02/07/2005 : 02:36:55 AM
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    The practical reason for using cast bullets is cost and practical use.. plinking. No reason to use jacketed bullets for those two applications. I've loaded only one jacketed load using pulled Portuguese 196gr FMJ boattail military bullets with IMR3031 but I consider that load a "target" type load as IMR3031 isn't the best powder for 8x58RD. If I was experimenting I'd try IMR4831 or the few other slow powders with heavy bullets.

    The older Norma factory "m/89" commercial load was 196gr bullet @ 2700fps... and that's a pretty stout load in the rolling block. I'm sure tons of that load have been fired in the 1889 rolling block but it makes me nervous!! It slightly exceeds .30-06 performance.

    There hasn't been a lot of handloading for 8x58RD in rolling blocks in the U.S. The Swedish rolling blocks haven't been here that long. Its true that Danish Krags have been here a long time but the application is different and loads are not nessessarily interchangeable.

    We do NOT want to read about one of our fellow Swede shooters blowing up his rifle and possibly getting hurt or DEAD. There are enough ways to die in this world already, ya'know?

    clayws
    Gunboards Member
    16 Posts
    Posted - 02/07/2005 : 11:51:18 AM
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    Dutchman - thanks, I'll try IMR 4831 to start with. Yes, those old Norma m/89 loads sure do look stout. 196g @ 2740 fps! I would be happy with the same bullet weight at about 2400, which seems like it should be doable. Do any of you know during what era Norma loaded for this round, and what was the impetus for them to do so?
    (And yes, you are right - there are more glamorous ways of getting dead.)


    Dutchman
    Moderator - Swedish Military Firearms Forum
    USA
    1439 Posts
    Posted - 02/08/2005 : 4:27:38 PM
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    I don't know when Norma loaded the m/89 but they don't anymore. Why they did is because it was a commonly available rifle in Sweden for decades and was heavily used for hunting and general shooting. I've heard that for target shooting the 12.7x44R was more desireable.

    * * *

  2. #2
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    Default Reloads 8x58 RD from Norway

    olav
    Gunboards Member
    Norway
    42 Posts
    Posted - 05/15/2005 : 10:40:40 AM
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    I see that many are asking about loads for this catridge. It was originally a Danish calibre for their M/89 Krag Jørgensen, loaded with a bullet 237 grains over a compressed black powder load. It was changed in 1908 with Ballistite smokeless and a 196 gr bullet.

    I have used CCI Large Rifle primers and my various Bertram and formed Norma cases.Bullets Sierra 150gr and 46gr N.140 Vihtavuori powder and up to 47 g N140 under same bullet.
    Sierra 150 gr and 48gr Norma 202.
    Sierra 175gr 46 gr N140 and 175 Sierra Norma 202.
    Norma bullet 196 and 44 gr N 140.
    Norma bullet 196 gr and 45gr Norma 202.
    Lead bullets, Lymans 323470 and 21 grains of Vihtavuori N110, I got up to 24gr N110 under the same gascheched bullets. N110 have about the same burning rate as the Alliant 2400.

    I hope this is some help to those in need.
    God bless, Olav
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    olav heidenstrøm


    kriggevaer
    Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
    USA
    1709 Posts
    Posted - 05/15/2005 : 12:48:09 PM
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    Hej Olav, mange, mange tak! I too reload for the 8x58RD and your loads really add a lot to my notebook of reloads. I have not tried the lighter weight bullets yet. I am loading Norma 196gr Oryx and Alaska bullets with IMR 4895 at 47-48 grains and IMR 3031 at 46 grains, with CCI BR-2 primers. So far, these loads have been for my m/67-89 Carl Gustaf rolling block. I have not used them yet in my m/89-24 Krag-Jørgensen, but I think I will reduce them a little for that rifle. Thank You


    rockfarm
    Gunboards Member
    USA
    14 Posts
    Posted - 05/16/2005 : 8:05:07 PM
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    olav and krigg,

    thanks much for the info. i'm reloading for this also. am using alliant 2400 with a 210 gr cast bullet with gas check using cci 200 primers. worked up from 16g which were very light. between 22g and 24g of 2400 seems to work best for me. shooting a carl gustav 67/89.

    i haven't tried the light bullets yet either.

    greg

  3. #3
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    Default

    gianluca1962 had posted an instructive image about forming 8x58 RD brass from a .45-90 case (probably the best way)

    Posted - 06/01/2005 : 07:34:21 AM
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    my way to make the brass from 45-90 Bell, I discover I had to machine the rim anyway and to trim the neck.

    http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/gi...1_P1010001.JPG
    Download Attachment:
    203.82 KB
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    regards
    gianluca
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20056173251_P1010001.jpg  

  4. #4
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    Default Reforming from .45-70

    irishsteve
    Posted - 08/18/2005 : 11:11:33 PM
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    Dont know if this has been done before, but I made some 8mmx58r brass by annealing the top of some 45-70 brass, and running it up in to my lee 8mm lebel die. Its slightly shorter ,but with 200-220 grain bullets they can be seated farther out to help off set this.The shoulder is slightly different from factory brass, but once its been fired it will fire form slightly. fits well in by Rolling Block as is.


    Dutchman
    Posted - 08/19/2005 : 01:42:42 AM
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    I have 40 rds that were made that way in addition to the correct length cases from Buffalo Arms. I've fired the shorter cases only once but didn't notice any obvious problems. Don't know about eventual erosion...

    Dutchman

  5. #5
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    Default Reloading dies for 8x58 RD

    igor
    Starting Member
    Posted - 07/05/2006 : 8:46:15 PM

    Does anyone have a source for reloading dies for a Swedish rolling block rifle caliber 8x58 rimmed danish? I came across a nice one at a fair price and have located brass but not dies. Will not buy if I can't shoot it. Any info. would be appreciated.

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    jcmh1
    Posted - 07/05/2006 : 10:07:30 PM

    Try buffaloarms.com

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    AseVeli
    Posted - 07/05/2006 : 10:12:46 PM

    From lee's Website:

    Custom Full Length Die Sets

    Full length 2 die set - Rifle calibers, (includes the full length sizing die and the bullet seating/crimper die). Set up charge would be $130 plus $35.98 for the die set.

    Full length 3 die set - Pistol calibers,(includes the full length sizing die, bullet seating/crimper die, and the powder through expanding die). Set up charge would be $150 plus $35.98 for the die set.

    Carbide full length 3 die set - pistol calibers only, (includes the full length sizing die, bullet seating/crimper die, and the powder through expanding die). Set up charge would be $230 plus $35.98 for the die set.

    For all of these custom die sets, we would ask for payment in advance, five fired cases, and three sample bullets for testing purposes.
    S/H is $4.00. Please allow about 180 days to complete. This is due to the high amount of machining and the necessity of a new reamer for your cartridge.

    We will waive the set up charge if 25 or more of the same caliber die sets are ordered at the same time. Dealer and Distributor discounts will apply on orders of 100 or more.

    Our address is:

    Lee Precision, Inc.
    4275 Highway "U"
    Hartford, WI 53027

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    mcornell
    Posted - 07/06/2006 : 06:56:51 AM

    If the cartridge is the same as the 8 x 58 R Danish Krag, dies are available from http://www.ch4d.com/

    Mark

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    Dutchman
    Posted - 07/06/2006 : 09:17:58 AM

    RCBS makes them. 8x58R Danish. Its what I use.

  6. #6
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    Default

    Tjack
    Posted - 11/29/2006 : 7:42:18 PM
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    You have what is refered to as the M1867/89. I have been using a 185gr jacketed bullet and 35.0gr IMR 3031 for 1981fps in my Rolling Block. This is a fairly light load. It was blackening the case necks on firing, indicating gas blow by. I could probably increase the load somewhat but, in deference to the old steel I just anneal case necks every few loadings. The lighter load and neck annealing help prolong case life. Various references give: original military load of 236gr FMJ @ 1968fps; 1906 spitzer (196gr FMJ) @ 2360fps. Another states that the early smokeless load was 217gr FMJ @ 2066fps. Whatever you do, stay away from loads listed in Barnes "Cartridges of the World". Life expectancy for your brass will be 1-2 loadings.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thomas Jackson


    glshop
    Posted - 11/29/2006 : 8:42:14 PM
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    Thanks Tjacks, I loaded up some this past week with loading data based on 30-40 Krag cartridges. I kept the loads on the moderate level and used slow powder (acc4350 and acc3100) I think this will keep pressure on the safe side (will try this weekend). To the best of my understanding the 30-40 Krag action is not real strong so loads were on the mild side. I shot some rounds with these powders last week but kept the grains down to starting levels. I to had some gas blow back on the cases and the velocity was still on the low side(1800fps from chronograph) I am not looking for screamers just a load that will bring the best out of the rifle. Just curious, what kind of accuracy do you get? The bore on mine is mint, and I hope for good things when I get the right load. Thanks, Walt


    Tjack
    Posted - 12/12/2006 : 8:02:55 PM
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    Walt,
    Sorry for the delay; I tend to get lost in this site; there are so many parts I visit. I'm not much of a paper shooter. Only do that for load development. In my Carl Gustaf rifle I get 1 1/2" @ 50 yards for a 4 shot group. In the Remington action I get 1 1/4" group and in the "school rifle" I get 1 1/4". I don't shoot at paper any farther than 50 yds because then it becomes a test of my aging eyesight and the crude military sights. My real shooting is done sitting in a sandy wash (I live in the desert) and picking out small bushes or rocks at 400-600 yds and dropping in rounds on them. A friend refers to my accuracy as "minute of rock".
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thomas Jackson

  7. #7
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    Default Bore Diameter of 8X58RD Rolling Blocks?

    NiklasP
    Posted - 04/30/2007 : 7:22:27 PM
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    Recently bought a Carl Gustavs Stad rolling block that was converted in 1895 to 8X58RD. It is in excellent condition. When I measured the groove-to-groove diameter today it is 0,329 (goof! for correction, see my next post, which gives 0,324-0,325) . Is this common for these guns?
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    Edited by - NiklasP on 05/01/2007 11:27:59 AM



    Dutchman
    Posted - 04/30/2007 : 9:06:35 PM
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    Groove diameter varies quite a lot with these rifles. What you measured is not unknown, unfortunately.

    I would suggest you buy 100 st from Wayne Dounda if he will ship them overseas. I would not recommend buying a bullet mold until you see if the rifle will shoot well. Some do, some do not.

    With cast bullets I use Hercules Unique. It is a slower powder than Bullseye or Reddot or WW231. I do not know the Norma equivilent for Unique but I am sure someone here does know. I am sure that the most popular powders we use in the U.S. would cost more in Sweden or Norway so it would be best to use Norma or some other lower price powder.

    Using bullets as large as .329" presents another problem and that is neck diameter of the loaded cartridge. The neck area of the chamber must be large enough to allow expansion and release of the bullet. The neck area of the chamber might need to be reamed by a gunsmith to allow for this clearance. We would say such rifles are - a pain in the ass :-) Sometimes too much trouble and lends the particular rifle to re-barreling. Neck turning of the case neck may help reduce the diameter if not taken too far.

    My 1889 sporter has a .324" groove measurement. I have not yet targeted that particular rifle on paper with cast bullets yet. This summer..



    NiklasP
    Posted - 04/30/2007 : 10:48:07 PM
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    I actually live in Denver, CO area now.

    OOPPSS!! Did some more slugging and measuring this morning, including remeasuring the slug from yesterday. GoofusDoofus! Slug that went through entire bore yesterday mikes 0,324 today. Slug driven into first cm or so of rifling ahead of throat is 0,325. HAPPYNESS!!

    Powders I am likely to use with cast bullets in this old gun are Reloader 22 (about like Norma MRP for burn rate -- gives nice loads in 12,7X44R!), 2400, H110, Blue Dot, Hodgdon 777 FFg (to maybe approximate the early BP loadings with 245 grain 8 mm bullet Wyane sells -- also works well in 12,7X44R). Bullets will generally have gass checks and be "hard".
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    Edited by - NiklasP on 05/01/2007 11:25:17 AM



    sbhva
    Posted - 05/01/2007 : 1:21:15 PM
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    Niklas;
    The fellow you bought the gun from has worked up a load that shoots very well in that gun. I suggest you contact him for the info.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    296

    Default

    I have done enough load testing with my 8X58 RD to have some reliable results. Only bullet I have tried yet that gave good groups (3-4 inches, 5 shots at 100-150 meters) is 210 grain GC, 0,324 from Buffalo Arms. So far only two loads have given this performance. I cannot shoot better than this with these sights. Chamber in my rifle is tight enough that there is not much resizing of fired brass.

    One load is 13,5 grain of Green Dot in cases made by expanding 7,62X54Russian to 8,00 mm. Primers are Winchester. Cases sometimes split where neck has to expand to full body size. Once fired cases gave same down range performance. No information about how long cases will last. Velocity from 33 inch barrel is about 1350 fps. Velocity below 1300 fps gave lots of badly tumbling bullets. To get 100 meter POI and POA to agree required using 500 meter setting on issue rear sight. Check of published data for roughly similar cartridges, suggests chamber pressures in 25.000-30.000 psi range. Not interested in going to higher loadings.

    Other load is 42--43 grains of Reloader 22 (much like Norma MRP) under same bullet. Velocity about 1800 fps. Shoots close to POA at 100 meters with standard "short range" setting on issue sights. Cases are Bertrum 8X58RD and primers are Winchester. 40 grains load shot way low.

    Also started with 2400 but got bad tumbling with 18 grains and same bullet and have not returned to tests with this powder at higher weights.

    NONE of 0,321 32-40 or 8 mm 0,323 plain base lead bullets have quit tumbling with any loads I have used. Have not tried any jacket bullets and may not.

    May not have any more data for months.

    Niklas

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