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  1. #1

    Default Proven-the 7.62x25 Tokarev Kevlar Penetration Issue

    My favorite handgun caliber?
    Used to be .357 magnum.
    Then I learned about a soviet adaptation of a German round,the 7.63x25 Mauser.

    7.62x25 Tokarev.

    Call me crazy,but lets look at a solid fact or two-

    Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing
    7.62x25mm Sellier & Bellot 85gr FMJ vs. NIJ II vest
    http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1242.htm

    Test # AP 3
    Bare gelatin. (Nominal 10% concentration)

    Cartridge : 7.62x25mm Sellior & Bellot 85gr FMJ

    Block Calibration :
    Primary block : 4.6 ± 0.05 inch penetration @ 591 ± 0.5 ft/sec

    Vest was draped over the face of the gelatin block. Vest was ‘new old stock’ but never issued. Fabric was Kevlar 29.

    Bullet Performance:

    Impact Velocity : 1521 ± 0.5 feet/second
    Deepest Penetration Depth : 11.8 ± 0.05 Inch
    Maximum Crack Diameter : NR
    Max Crack Diameter Location : NR
    Cavitation Depth : NR

    Notes:
    Weapon – CZ 52, with 4.6” barrel length
    Distance – 10 feet, muzzle to gelatin impact face
    Test site conditions - 72 deg F
    Time out of refrigeration prior to shot impact - 5 minutes
    Bullet recovered weight – NR
    Bullet recovered average diameter – 0.462”
    Bullet recovered length – NR

    Here is a picture of the expended projectile-




    Please visit the website above for a picture of the gelatin showing penetration and performance.

    Level II Kevlar is the second highest rated soft 'concealable' body armor by the National Institute of Justice.
    It will stop 9 mm FMJ, at ~1,175 fps,or .357 JSP at ~ 1,395 fps,for example.
    Being concealable,available for purchase over the internet,and highly rated,you better believe its out there in the wrong hands.A prime example of this is the extreme lengths to which Larry Eugene Phillips, Jr. and Emil Matasareanu went to armor themselves for their shootout with police in the now infamous 'North Hollywood Shootout' on February 28, 1997.

    Deepest Penetration Depth : 11.8 ± 0.05 Inch-Thats almost the 'required' 12 inches of penetration AFTER TOTALLY DEFEATING a level II vest.And thats a basic FMJ with standard lead core,available over the counter by Sellier and Bellot.
    Also,please note that the FMJ projectile actually EXPANDED to ABOVE .45 caliber-Bullet recovered average diameter – 0.462.The weight might not be there,but the penetration and the diameter sure is.And I'll be willing to bet it expanded to that diameter because of breaching that vest,so were looking at a .46 caliber hole for just shy of 12 inches-in other words,this is a .46 caliber wound passing the total length of 'soft tissue' terminal ballistics,all the way thru the 'bad guy'-AFTER defeating his vest.
    Not bad.
    Not bad at all.


    Wonder if there is a difference between lead core and some of the steel core milsurp ammo out there?I do,but I do know that this makes a CZ52 or a TT33 or any of its many varients a bit more appealing in an age when kevlar vests are being worn as a 'status symbol' by gang bangers.......

    Toks and CZ52s arent the most modern of handguns to carry.But they cost around $200 and you have your pick in exemplary locking mechanisms,if not much else-Browning style in the TT33,or MG42 style roller bearing in the CZ52.
    With a bit of proper selection,you can get a down right reliable and accurate pistol.

    Both may need some minor work,like new springs or maybe a new finish,before carry.
    But they carry like any other single stack full size auto,i've even heard that some guys use their 1911 rigs with the CZ52.

    I'm still waiting,but the day someone makes a modern pistol chambered for 7.62x25 tokarev is the day I spend whatever money it costs to have one,at the risk of having it used on me by my missus.:eek:

    For more information and to see how other 'penetrators' stack up,go here-

    http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page315.htm

    You might be particularly surprised to see how the 5.7mm FN stacks up.......
    I'll give you a hint:
    Deepest Penetration Depth : 6.2 ± 0.05 Inch

    Tokarev 'wins' again!:D
    Last edited by Bludywancker; 12-30-2008 at 02:00 AM.
    "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
    --Thomas Jefferson

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  2. #2
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    Looks like you did your research. I like the 7.62 Tokarev-I just wish there were better pistols shooting it. My Cz-52 isn't very accurate. I have a number of Tokarev's and I like them but their round capacity is kind of low. Now something like a Glock 34 or 20/21 frame in a 7.62X25; I could get behind that.

    A while back there was a guy (well, actually a fanatic/goofball) who posted on this forum who was obsessed with the 7.62 Tok. Had a real fixation that legions of armor clad gang bangers were out to get him. He totally went off the rails ranting and raving presenting no facts only hyperbole which didn't help his arguement or credibility. He then left Gunboards in a huff.
    "It's the end of the World as we Know it...and I feel fine!":eek:

  3. #3
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    I like the tok/52 handguns and the cartridge.. But since I do not think many Gang Bangers spend a lot of time in Kelvar and I don't ever plan to shoot at Vested Law enforcement officers, I don't carry a handgun in that round.
    Last edited by ammolab; 12-30-2008 at 01:27 PM.

  4. #4
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    I can almost guarantee you that if some company comes out with a modern handgun, that chambers 7.62x25mm, the round will get unwanted attention from our lawmakers or the BATFE.
    Last edited by metrotps; 12-30-2008 at 02:05 PM.
    Our Government "If we didn't have mis-management, We wouldn't have any management at all"

  5. #5

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    Just for further information-

    From Wiki-
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_vest#Legality
    "United States law restricts possession of body armor for convicted violent felons. Many US states also have penalties for possession or use of body armor by felons. In February 1999, the late Russell Jones a.k.a. "Ol' Dirty Bastard" was arrested in California for possession of body armor by a convicted felon. In other states, such as Kentucky, possession is not prohibited, but probation or parole is denied for a person convicted of certain violent crimes while wearing body armor and carrying a deadly weapon."

    Because the majority of possible threats on the street to innocent citizens from the criminal element happens to be of the scathingly ignorant type,I do believe your alot less likely to run into a kevlar-clad thug.The overpenetration of the tokarev round then becomes an issue.
    The majority of what you might have to deal with are drug addicts and would be muggers.
    There are certain places in our nation where gang proliferation can multiply the chances you might be accosted by them in kevlar.I would carry a tok caliber pistol if for some reason,which I cant begin to think of at this time,I had to go somewhere like that.

    Oh-
    I certainly wouldnt suggest fighting the police.

    A bit of an oddball,but 7.62x25 tok is still my favorite!:D
    Last edited by Bludywancker; 12-30-2008 at 02:45 PM.
    "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
    --Thomas Jefferson

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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by metrotps View Post
    I can almost guarantee you that if some company comes out with a modern handgun, that chambers 7.62x25mm, the round will get unwanted attention from our lawmakers or the BATFE.
    Has the FN 5.7?
    "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
    --Thomas Jefferson

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  7. #7
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    Yes it has had some unwanted attention but to this date nothing serious. I am speaking of the ban on importation of the SS190 and SS192 ammo. See links below:
    http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-122615.html
    http://www.survivalblog.com/2007/08/...ce_on_buy.html
    http://forum.pafoa.org/rifles-42/397...ar-page-2.html

    On the other hand a 1911 based handgun chambered in the TOK round would be uber-cool!
    Last edited by metrotps; 12-30-2008 at 02:34 PM. Reason: link added and comment added
    Our Government "If we didn't have mis-management, We wouldn't have any management at all"

  8. #8

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    That is not good.

    I like this quote-
    "Considering that rifle rounds will go ABV all this uproar over the five seven is quite silly. All this does is get people to buy a product that would not have if it wasn't for all this uproar.

    A friend at work wants a Five Seven now after I mention the sillyness coming from NYC"

    Sounds like the usual suspects are caterwalling about their usual pet peeves.:

    Hoplophobes.
    You gotta love em.

    No wait-you dont!:D
    Last edited by Bludywancker; 12-30-2008 at 02:36 PM.
    "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
    --Thomas Jefferson

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  9. #9
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    i guarantee you i would not want to be on the receiving end of a PPSH in full auto
    Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience then? I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right.

    Henry David Thoreau

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by kylek7398 View Post
    i guarantee you i would not want to be on the receiving end of a PPSH in full auto
    I wouldnt want to be on the receiving end of a single action .22 revolver!
    "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
    --Thomas Jefferson

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bludywancker View Post
    I wouldnt want to be on the receiving end of a single action .22 revolver!

    I'll second that one!
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by metrotps View Post
    Yes it has had some unwanted attention but to this date nothing serious. I am speaking of the ban on importation of the SS190 and SS192 ammo. See links below:
    http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-122615.html
    http://www.survivalblog.com/2007/08/...ce_on_buy.html
    http://forum.pafoa.org/rifles-42/397...ar-page-2.html

    On the other hand a 1911 based handgun chambered in the TOK round would be uber-cool!
    Back in the late 80's a gun dealer I knew got a bunch of pistols that Armscorp imported from China: Inglis and FN P-35's, c96's, and some 1911A1's. One of those 1911's had been converted by the ChiCom's to 7.62X25. Like a dummy I didn't buy it, nor did I buy the handmade 1911A1 copy that was in the bunch (did buy a Pre-War FN P-35 and an Inglis P-35).
    "It's the end of the World as we Know it...and I feel fine!":eek:

  13. #13
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    How difficult would it be to convert a BM or model B to 7.62 tok? I have a couple and think it would be neat. I guess the mag wouldn't have the OAL if it was a 9mm, but maybe if there was a 9mm largo gun, it would be possible? If the OAL wasn't a prob, wouldn't it be just a matter of the barrel and maybe a recoil spring?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by shucks View Post
    How difficult would it be to convert a BM or model B to 7.62 tok? I have a couple and think it would be neat. I guess the mag wouldn't have the OAL if it was a 9mm, but maybe if there was a 9mm largo gun, it would be possible? If the OAL wasn't a prob, wouldn't it be just a matter of the barrel and maybe a recoil spring?
    When it comes to gunsmithing almost anything is possible if you throw enough money at it. Is this extra penetration from a 7.62x25 really all that valuable? Is this round soooooo much better than a .357 Sig with an FMJ bullet, or a full power 10 MM FMJ, or a .38 Super FMJ? Therefore the question is; is it worth it? No. It really isn't. When it comes to extreme penetration in handgun rounds the sad truth is that yes; you solve one problem (the rare situation when you may have to face a threat wearing body armor), but then you create a whole battery of other problems.

    This subject has come up on this and other boards again and again. It causes a lot of posts, sometimes a lot of consternation, but at the end of the trail the facts, arguements, and guns available lead everybody back to the starting point. Time passes, everybody forgets about the subject, then another post is made and..............

    Yeah, if I could snap my fingers and magically a Glock 20/21 frame pistol would appear in 7.62x25 that would be great. But it isn't going to happen.
    "It's the end of the World as we Know it...and I feel fine!":eek:

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    Seems like if you use a bullet like the 7.62 with all it'll punch through you'd be opening up a whole can of worrms, uh, er, i mean lawyers.

  16. #16
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    I spent my younger days buying guns for how well thay killed. 25 years later I still haven't shot anyone.

    I love the X25 and my CZ52's because their fun as hell. Shoots like a magnum, booms like a cannon, and with certain upgrades shoots accurately at a distance, even with surplus.When you hit a can, it flies like no other round and you keep it flying.
    Hollow points blow the hell out of fruit. And where can you still buy surplus ammo for about $.10 a round?
    Fun, fun, fun.


    Makarov.com, God rest their soul, had some special (USA?) rifled CZ52 barrel blanks that greatly increased accuracy.
    Last edited by Mikej21; 01-01-2009 at 12:52 PM.

  17. #17
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    Didn't know if this was referenced above or not.

    Very interesting modern kevlar helmet test. Tok is used several pages in.

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by guinness11 View Post
    Didn't know if this was referenced above or not.

    Very interesting modern kevlar helmet test. Tok is used several pages in.

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

    That is another great test article guiness. Thank you for posting the link.
    Paul

    "A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing."

    George Bernard Shaw

  19. #19

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    Yes,thank you for the link.

    One of the more interesting things about the Tokarev round is that it adds an amount of versatility to handgun ammunition selection.Not only has its capabilities as a serious penetrator been proven time and again,but you can also add that this round will penetrate the FBI minimum 12" of ballistic gelatin with a few different personal defence style jacketed hollowpoint loads,with good expansion.
    On the 'old' brassfetcher test pages,you can get an idea of the penetration and expansion that you get with JHP tokarev,which is typically no more than 14 inches (depending on your choice of projectile),with good expansion.This means that if you are using the tokarev with a JHP defensive round,you will most likely not suffer the risks of overpenetration that you would with ball,and you would still get the bonuses of deep penetration and expansion.

    My favorite is Reeds 90 grain Hornady XTP.The tests on brassfetcher show it going 12.3" into the block with a recovered diameter of almost .50".An added bonus is that it is actually very accurate in my CZ52.

    http://www.brassfetcher.com/762x25mmJHPs.html

    From the Wolf JHP which is sold for 20 bucks for a box of 50,to some of the 'specialty' loads that feature premium bullets like Hornady XTP,to the FMJ standard lead ball that gives such excellent penetration,it is a most flexible round.

    Being able to be employed successfully in a defensive role with modern JHP projectiles that negate its trademark super penetration,and being able to defeat kevlar on the 'off chance' that becomes an issue gives the 7.62x25 Tokarev some great versatility.

    This versatility definitely gives the Tok an edge over many modern handgun cartridges.I can't think of another popular handgun round that has both of these same qualities.Most require more than ball to get the same penetration,and some dont even come close as a defensive pistol with JHP.

    I would love to see Sig,or maybe even CZ make a modern pistol for it.That would be my idea of what the best all-around defensive handgun/cartridge combo is.:D
    Last edited by Bludywancker; 01-03-2009 at 01:07 AM.
    "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
    --Thomas Jefferson

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by anarchy View Post
    Looks like you did your research. I like the 7.62 Tokarev-I just wish there were better pistols shooting it. My Cz-52 isn't very accurate. I have a number of Tokarev's and I like them but their round capacity is kind of low. Now something like a Glock 34 or 20/21 frame in a 7.62X25; I could get behind that.

    A while back there was a guy (well, actually a fanatic/goofball) who posted on this forum who was obsessed with the 7.62 Tok. Had a real fixation that legions of armor clad gang bangers were out to get him. He totally went off the rails ranting and raving presenting no facts only hyperbole which didn't help his arguement or credibility. He then left Gunboards in a huff.


    Lets knock off the name calling here. Being passionate about a subject does not make you a nut.
    Owner/Administrator of Gunboards.com
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    "Terror is not a new weapon. Throughout history it has been used by those who could not prevail, either by persuasion or example. But inevitably they fail, either because men are not afraid to die for a life worth living, or because the terrorists themselves came to realize that free men cannot be frightened by threats, and that aggression would meet its own response. And it is in the light of that history that every nation today should know, be he friend or foe, that the United States has both the will and the weapons to join free men in standing up to their responsibilities."
    John F. Kennedy

  21. #21
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    Here's my .02 worth. I think the 7.62x25 is by far the best choice in a sub-machine gun platform. The Tok and CZ52 are great pistol designs worthy of anybodys collection. For civilian personal protection I'll aways favor the slow and out dated .45 acp (in a 1911 of course). If anybody wants to stretch the limits of that cartridge get a contender/encore pistol chambered in 7.62x25 and I'll bet you'll be surprised at the accuracy potential and volecity of that cartridge.
    The soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by m91dragoon View Post
    Here's my .02 worth. I think the 7.62x25 is by far the best choice in a sub-machine gun platform. The Tok and CZ52 are great pistol designs worthy of anybodys collection. For civilian personal protection I'll aways favor the slow and out dated .45 acp (in a 1911 of course). If anybody wants to stretch the limits of that cartridge get a contender/encore pistol chambered in 7.62x25 and I'll bet you'll be surprised at the accuracy potential and volecity of that cartridge.
    What is a contender/encore pistol?Can you point out any links?
    I would LOVE to see a more modern pistol chambered in tok!
    "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
    --Thomas Jefferson

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bludywancker View Post
    What is a contender/encore pistol?Can you point out any links?
    I would LOVE to see a more modern pistol chambered in tok!
    http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encore.php

  24. #24

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    Well,those are nifty,but not exactly my idea of a modern magazine fed semiauto pistol for the tok........
    "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
    --Thomas Jefferson

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by anarchy View Post
    Back in the late 80's a gun dealer I knew got a bunch of pistols that Armscorp imported from China: Inglis and FN P-35's, c96's, and some 1911A1's. One of those 1911's had been converted by the ChiCom's to 7.62X25. Like a dummy I didn't buy it, nor did I buy the handmade 1911A1 copy that was in the bunch (did buy a Pre-War FN P-35 and an Inglis P-35).
    I've got one. Wanna see it?



  26. #26
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    The CZ52 and Tokarev are not the only pistols that shoot that caliber. The Russian 7.62x25 cartridge was developed (actually copied/stolen) from the German 7.63 Broomhandle Mauser and Luger cartridge. The dimensions of the two cartridge cases are so close that they are usually interchangeable between guns of the two calibers. If one likes the velocity of the Tokarev pistol round and still wants MORE velocity in a pistol, they could get a 7.63 (30 caliber) Broomhandle Mauser that has a longer barrel than the Tokarev or a long barreled 30 caliber artillery Luger. Ironic isn't it that the oldest commercially produced semi auto pistol being the Mauser Broomhandle still has some of the best penetration qualities of any handgun in its 30 caliber 7.63 cartridge which is virtually identical and usually interchangeable with the 7.62x25 Tokarev/CZ52 cartridge. Of course the Czech CZ52 7.62x25 cartridges are loaded much hotter than the Russian or Chinese rounds and should only be used in the CZ52 pistols since those rds are too hot for the Tokarev and will damage it if fired very much.

  27. #27

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    I converted a Colt 9mm Commander to 7.62x25 some year ago. Pretty straighforward. Shoots great, but I don't shoot it much these days. But I do keep it handy.

    Never know when you're going to have to shoot a bad guy in a chicken vest.

    Becoming more likely every day.

  28. #28
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    I am thinking that perhaps it might be possible to get the same great penetration of the 30 caliber 7.62x25 or 7.63 without using either of those cartridges and without modifying a .45 acp gun in any way. But simply by handloading 30 caliber bullets into a sabot into a .45 acp. I have read of folks who have necked down the .45 acp to make smaller caliber wildcat rounds, but why go to the trouble to rechamber a barrel and get dies to neck down the cartridge when a standard .45 acp case with a 30 cal bullet in a sabot would do the same thing? I imagine the velocity of the large case powder capacity of the .45 acp driving a 30 caliber saboted bullet would equal or even possibly exceed the 7.62x25 or 7.63 round's velocity. The nice thing about this is you could have a mag with regular .45's loaded and another mag with the high velocity saboted rounds loaded so you could quickly choose which ammo to use by just a mag change. I have some 30-30 rds that are saboted to a smaller caliber for higher velocity. Same thing. Lots of fun things you can do hand loading. I wonder where I might find some sabots that fit a .45 acp case and hold a 30 caliber or smaller bullet?

    Regards, Bill.
    Last edited by Bill Akins; 01-16-2010 at 11:18 PM.

  29. #29
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    I'm still waiting,but the day someone makes a modern pistol chambered for 7.62x25 tokarev is the day I spend whatever money it costs to have one.............
    http://www.centuryarms.biz/proddetai...rod=HG2037%2DX

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcnez762 View Post
    I'm still waiting,but the day someone makes a modern pistol chambered for 7.62x25 tokarev is the day I spend whatever money it costs to have one.............
    http://www.centuryarms.biz/proddetai...rod=HG2037%2DX
    I understand. I too like the 7.63x25 Mauser cartridge seen at this link..........
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.63x25mm_Mauser

    as well as its near identical clone (except for powder charge) the 7.62x25 Tokarev seen at this link.......
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x25mm_Tokarev

    But there is an much less expensive option available if you handload rather than spending big bucks on a new handgun manufactured for the
    7.62x25 (if such a newly manufactured handgun was ever made).

    It is much more cost effective and would achieve the same if not better results to simply load saboted 30 caliber bullets into .45 acp cases.
    You don't need to buy another gun, or get another barrel or enlarge the mag well to accept the longer 7.62x25 cartridge, or even so much as buy a different recoil spring.

    Instead you simply use your same ole tried and true 1911 and load saboted rounds into your .45 acp cases.

    Take a look at these picture comparisons between the .45 acp case and the 7.62x25 case. Although the 7.62x25 case is just around a little over 1/16th longer than the .45 acp case, just look at the larger powder capacity of the much fatter .45 acp case. You can get more powder into the .45 acp case than you can into the 7.62x25 case. So the .45 acp case has much more capacity to hold powder than the 7.62x25. Now imagine your large powder capacity .45 acp round hand loaded with a nylon sabot that would hold a 30 caliber bullet. Since the nylon would be engaging the rifling and not the bullet and the nylon would fall away a few feet from the muzzle, you could even hand load a pointed hard steel projectile into the sabot and achieve fantastic penetration, or just load a regular 30 caliber bullet. The idea is, that you would achieve a high velocity 30 caliber bullet out of a .45 caliber barrel. All you have to have is a loading press, some sabots and either make your own pointed hard steel 30 caliber projectiles, or use whatever 30 caliber bullet you desire in the bullet grain weight you select.

    Simply and inexpensive. But only works for hand loaders. I am going to start looking to see if there are any .45 sabots available that will hold .30 caliber bullets.
    If I can't find any standard cartridge sabots, perhaps I might find some black powder bullet sabots that might work. I'm going to be looking for this myself since
    I really like the higher velocity and flatter shooting Tokarev round too and think it can be duplicated or even surpassed by sabotting a .45 acp case.

    Regards, Bill.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 45bullet_cz-52bullet.jpg   PICT0934.JPG  
    Last edited by Bill Akins; 01-19-2010 at 01:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Akins View Post
    The CZ52 and Tokarev are not the only pistols that shoot that caliber. The Russian 7.62x25 cartridge was developed (actually copied/stolen) from the German 7.63 Broomhandle Mauser and Luger cartridge. The dimensions of the two cartridge cases are so close that they are usually interchangeable between guns of the two calibers. If one likes the velocity of the Tokarev pistol round and still wants MORE velocity in a pistol, they could get a 7.63 (30 caliber) Broomhandle Mauser that has a longer barrel than the Tokarev or a long barreled 30 caliber artillery Luger. Ironic isn't it that the oldest commercially produced semi auto pistol being the Mauser Broomhandle still has some of the best penetration qualities of any handgun in its 30 caliber 7.63 cartridge which is virtually identical and usually interchangeable with the 7.62x25 Tokarev/CZ52 cartridge. Of course the Czech CZ52 7.62x25 cartridges are loaded much hotter than the Russian or Chinese rounds and should only be used in the CZ52 pistols since those rds are too hot for the Tokarev and will damage it if fired very much.
    Not EXACTLY... the 7.63 Mauser as used in the Broomhandles is dimensionally almost identical to the 7.62x25 used in communist arms but the pressures are very different. You can shoot Mauser ammo in a CZ-52 or a Tokarev with no problems because it's weaker and doesn't have near the power that the Tok fans like. Tokarev 7.62 in a broomhandle Mauser is completely unsafe
    Also I see you buy the strong CZ-52 hype, this is a fallacy. I'm not getting into that tonight, you can search for one of the previous threads on that topic

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    On the subject of the sabot rounds.. I have some of these little hot rods I haven't tried out yet. You can also use a sabot to load .223 bullets into the Tokarev shell
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails tok223 001.jpg   tok223 002.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by izzytok46 View Post
    Not EXACTLY... the 7.63 Mauser as used in the Broomhandles is dimensionally almost identical to the 7.62x25 used in communist arms but the pressures are very different. You can shoot Mauser ammo in a CZ-52 or a Tokarev with no problems because it's weaker and doesn't have near the power that the Tok fans like. Tokarev 7.62 in a broomhandle Mauser is completely unsafe
    Also I see you buy the strong CZ-52 hype, this is a fallacy. I'm not getting into that tonight, you can search for one of the previous threads on that topic
    You are correct that using the hotter 7.62x52 Tokarev cartridge in an old 7.63x25 Broomhandle probably is not the safest thing to do. I understand that and that's why I alluded to the difference in powder charge between the two cartridges when I said......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Akins View Post
    as well as its near identical clone (except for powder charge) the 7.62x25 Tokarev seen at this link.......
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x25mm_Tokarev
    However the weaker in power but dimensionally almost identical in case 7.63 is still excellent at penetration, even from an old Broomhandle.

    I own both the Tokarev and the CZ52 and am very familiar with them. You will notice by re-reading my quotes, that I actually did not mention the strength of the CZ52 pistol at all......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Akins View Post
    Of course the Czech CZ52 7.62x25 cartridges are loaded much hotter than the Russian or Chinese rounds and should only be used in the CZ52 pistols since those rds are too hot for the Tokarev and will damage it if fired very much.
    As you can see, I remarked upon the strength of the Czech ammo only, but I did not make any remarks concerning anything about a stronger CZ52 pistol itself. But it would seem to follow that if the Czech pistol ammo is hotter than the Russian Tokarev ammo, that a logical deduction would be that the Czech pistol is made to withstand that hotter ammo. Although I own both pistols, and although I do not pretend to be a technical expert on either one, I do feel that the MG42 style roller lockup and more beefiness of the Czech CZ52 pistol is stronger and less prone to failure at higher pressure than the Browning style lockup and less beefiness of the Tokarev. That's no condemnation of the Tokarev, I like it very much. Not being a metallurgy expert, that is simply my personal opinion on the strength issue, based upon owning and shooting both pistols. Your opinion may differ. If I see proof that disproves my opinion, then I will change my opinion.

    I am saying that now on the strength issue of the CZ52 pistol itself, but I did not say it before as you can see by my quotes above..

    I won't get into the different loadings for the cartridge tonight, you can search the net and find the proof for yourself of the Czech ammo being loaded hotter. If it is a "hype" fallacy that the Czech ammo is loaded hotter as well as the CZ52 pistol itself being made stronger to withstand it, it is certainly a fallacy that is long standing and pervasive throughout the net and firearms world. It would be interesting to see it disproved. That would not affect me either way, I still would like both pistols. But I am always interested in furthering my firearms education and would like to see proof that the Czech ammo is not loaded hotter than the Russian as well as proof that the CZ52 is not stronger than the Tokarev. If true, that would further my education and dispel my current opinion. And to me, education is what it's all about.




    Regards, Bill.
    Last edited by Bill Akins; 01-19-2010 at 02:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by izzytok46 View Post
    On the subject of the sabot rounds.. I have some of these little hot rods I haven't tried out yet. You can also use a sabot to load .223 bullets into the Tokarev shell
    Do you know of any sources to get .45 acp sabots for .30 caliber projectiles?

    Regards, Bill.

    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Akins View Post
    The CZ52 and Tokarev are not the only pistols that shoot that caliber. The Russian 7.62x25 cartridge was developed (actually copied/stolen) from the German 7.63 Broomhandle Mauser and Luger cartridge. The dimensions of the two cartridge cases are so close that they are usually interchangeable between guns of the two calibers. If one likes the velocity of the Tokarev pistol round and still wants MORE velocity in a pistol, they could get a 7.63 (30 caliber) Broomhandle Mauser that has a longer barrel than the Tokarev or a long barreled 30 caliber artillery Luger. Ironic isn't it that the oldest commercially produced semi auto pistol being the Mauser Broomhandle still has some of the best penetration qualities of any handgun in its 30 caliber 7.63 cartridge which is virtually identical and usually interchangeable with the 7.62x25 Tokarev/CZ52 cartridge. Of course the Czech CZ52 7.62x25 cartridges are loaded much hotter than the Russian or Chinese rounds and should only be used in the CZ52 pistols since those rds are too hot for the Tokarev and will damage it if fired very much.
    DO NOT put 7.62x25 in your broomhandle!

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    Quote Originally Posted by storkman View Post
    DO NOT put 7.62x25 in your broomhandle!
    I agree. As loaded, the Tokarev cartridge is pretty hot for use in the Broomhandle. The 7.63x25 mauser and the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge cases themselves are interchangable. So if you handload, you can use the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge case in your 7.63x25 Broomhandle. But of course you must follow the loading data for the 7.63x25 mauser when you load it.

    Regards, Bill.

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    Nice research Mr. Wanker.
    Last edited by CandRNut; 06-20-2010 at 02:36 AM.

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    I am also of the opinion that research of this sort, even though well done and very interesting, should NEVER be published in a public forum. We do not want to give the "other side" any free ammunition.

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    Default 178gr. steel core subsonic!

    This one must be loaded one round at a time, as the bullet is too long to go into clip.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100_2919.jpg  

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    I have a CZ52 that I've had for years, and absolutely love it. Well, everything but the stupid bakelite grips. I've done quite a bit of experimenting with different loads and have had surprising results. So far, the gun is still all original, even right down to the firing pin. And I've put more ammo through it than I care to count, as well as few fairly hot handloads.

    While I know the gun is known to be rather suspect to a few different failures, mine has held up extremely well, and shoots extremely well. But I suppose it could be due to nothing more than pure luck. Either way, you won't hear me complaining. I'll shoot it for as long as I can keep it in one piece, or at least replace what breaks off. :-)

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    Meat and potatoes, man! There's nothing wrong with 130 gr. .357 Magnum!

    I am a firearms enthusiast like everyone here, and am also fascinated with the "what if" questions.......but then I realized that I'm just a regular dude, I can't own and shoot everything, and some things are better left alone. I got rid of most of my oddball caliber rifles in chamberings that haven't been used in over 120 years.

    "What if" I could get the power and penetration of a 5.56 in a handgun! Well, how about an AR-15 pistol?

    If say someone was worried about Zombies or mutants who wore body armor, and he needed to penetrate this body armor, why was he relying on 7.62 Tokarev? Will a .223 rifle not do the same job but better? We need to stop trying to "hot rod" pistol rounds, a pistol will not do the job of a rifle no matter how hard we try. The closest thing I have seen to a do-all "hand rifle" is the .454 Casull round out of a wheelgun. It can hit a point target like a deer out to 300 yards, and I'm pretty sure it could punch through pretty much any armor anything on any planet would wear on it's body. If it bleeds a .454 Casull can kill it at 300 yards or less.

    +1 on the above, we all know it's a free country but let's try to exercise some caution when starting threads about making rounds that penetrate body armor. WE all know it's a harmless thread of "what if" but anyone on earth can read this stuff,people who don't understand the stuff firearm enthusiasts talk about harmlessly, and right now some soccer mom is cutting and pasting this thread because she caught little Timmy reading about "killer bullets" on the internet.

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    Please, please do not take offense, but I have to respectfully disagree on a couple of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by stantheman86 View Post
    We need to stop trying to "hot rod" pistol rounds, a pistol will not do the job of a rifle no matter how hard we try.
    There are several reasons for "hot rodding" pistol rounds that have nothing to do with armor whatsoever. As I'm sure you already know, this is what handloading is all about. Working within the established safe limits to achieve a specific performance goal. Whether that's pushing a heavy bullet really slow to quiet a gun, or a small bullet very fast to flatten it's trajectory, it's all about working it to suit your needs. And as long as you take the time to research what you are doing, and use the necessary caution while doing it, it's just as valid a thing as tinkering with your rifle loads. And I'm absolutely not trying to be a smarta** whatsoever, but if everyone just stuck to what was available, we wouldn't have one tenth the selection of chamberings in rifles and pistols we have today.

    Quote Originally Posted by stantheman86 View Post
    +1 on the above, we all know it's a free country but let's try to exercise some caution when starting threads about making rounds that penetrate body armor. WE all know it's a harmless thread of "what if" but anyone on earth can read this stuff,people who don't understand the stuff firearm enthusiasts talk about harmlessly, and right now some soccer mom is cutting and pasting this thread because she caught little Timmy reading about "killer bullets" on the internet.
    And as for this, I understand what you are trying to say, but that is going to happen no matter what you do. You could replace "body armor" with "leather jacket" and Timmy's mom who doesn't know her backside from a hole in the ground regarding guns is still going to have a hissy fit about "killer bullets". Those kind of people will regard a .22 BB cap round the same as .950 JDJ. But so long as we aren't loading explosive bullets, steel core, or other illegal ammunition, there's nothing they can do about it. We all know about the hyperbole that surrounded the whole Black Talon escapade. Even with the lop sided and falsification laden media coverage, and excessive rhetoric of the gun control lobby and politicians, in the end all that really happened was Winchester voluntarily dropping the line and essentially re-releasing them with a minor design change and a different name in which they were under no legal obligation to do. The real result of this fiasco was even more self censoring by those of us who do enjoy our hobby. And as we all know, when we give a little, those in the anti-gun lobby(Or any other anti-whatever lobby for that matter...) will just use that as a sign of weakness to take it as far as they can. I'm tired of being scared for my second amendment rights because of the use of my first amendment rights. These days, any statement can be warped into an "implication" because of the wonderful world of political correctness, no matter what your hobby may be. I refuse to let them get away with that anymore, and judging by the recent election results, a lot of other people are becoming fed up with the "anti-this and that" lobby rhetoric as a whole.

    Like I said, I'm am absolutely not trying to be a jerk or argumentative, but at some point we have to draw a line in the sand with this new habit of self censoring. If we don't, and we keep giving it more and more latitude, then we've already lost the fight. I would agree with you if we were talking about doing things that were illegal, but that is not the subject here.

  43. #43
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    The polish PPS-43c handgun also uses that round and its capacity is 35+1.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHBGOkMYClU

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    Quote Originally Posted by anarchy View Post
    Looks like you did your research. I like the 7.62 Tokarev-I just wish there were better pistols shooting it. My Cz-52 isn't very accurate. I have a number of Tokarev's and I like them but their round capacity is kind of low. Now something like a Glock 34 or 20/21 frame in a 7.62X25; I could get behind that.

    A while back there was a guy (well, actually a fanatic/goofball) who posted on this forum who was obsessed with the 7.62 Tok. Had a real fixation that legions of armor clad gang bangers were out to get him. He totally went off the rails ranting and raving presenting no facts only hyperbole which didn't help his arguement or credibility. He then left Gunboards in a huff.
    Anarchy you probably need to change your main spring, with a weak spring the 52 with diisengage from the rollers before the round is clear giving horrible accuracy. i shot a 7 inch group freehand from 60 yards this winter with my 52 that i updated the springs to 4# plus
    God say, You can do what you want Abe, but
    The next time you see me comin you better run
    Well Abe says, Where do you want this killin done?
    God says, Out on Highway 61

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    anarchy, I agree with ckinser 1. After replacing the springs and firing pin in my CZ52 accuracy improved alot. Also, quality of ammo might be part of the issue too.
    To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt

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