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  1. #1
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    Default Air Force Survival rifle

    reading in my old speer reloading manual today, they made mention of a 22 hornet survival rifle issued to aircrews in the 50's. i think it may be the MA-1. anybody have one or a picture of one? i love military surplus.
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

  2. #2
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    You might mean the M6 Scout I have one that's a .22 over a .410. Though they had other 'survival' rifles.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springf...rmory_M6_Scout

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-7

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MA-1_Survival_Rifle
    Last edited by Billofthenorth2; 01-05-2009 at 06:43 PM.
    The surplus of verbiage oft times consummates in a loss of perspicacity!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU

  3. #3
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    nah, i think this one was made by ithaca and the manual sis not say the manufacturer, but did say it had a folding stock. 22 hornet.
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

  4. #4
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    bill, maybe you're right, but they did not mention anything about a shotgun barrel on it, also, i was under the impression it was an underfolder.
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

  5. #5
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    People don't know much about 'em there is a take down version that
    was made in Wash.D.C.
    A friend of mine picked up one a few years ago that is pretty much
    a skeleton of a rifle in 22 cal.
    I have shot it,it's very light and fun to shoot.
    Last edited by Gitano; 01-05-2009 at 07:05 PM.

  6. #6
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    billoftheN, did you buy yours new? just checked gunbroker.... they have an "original" stock for 395, other M6's are 3 to 800 bucks. had no idea they would be that high. they do look nice, and most of them are in 22 hornet/410.
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

  7. #7
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    Default survival rifle

    yes the U.S. Airforce did issue a MA-1 survival rifle in .22 hornet only...it was issued in the late 40's and could be carried in one-man seat kits..the MA-1 also known as the AR-5,is a bolt action .22 hornet rifle only with a folding or dismantled butt stock...based on info the MA-1 was shot lived ...i have the M-6 over and under rifle in .22 hornet and .410 gauge, it's a fun little weapon....vince g. 11b inf...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by falm16 View Post
    22 hornet survival rifle issued to aircrews in the 50's. i think it may be the MA-1. anybody have one or a picture of one? i love military surplus.
    I had one but lost it in a boating accident....It was Made by Ithaca in NY.
    It was a Folding .22 Hornet/410 over and Under......It fit PERFECT in an Alice Pack.......I took it to a gunshow one day and a vendor told me to IMMEDIATLEY turn around and MARCH back to my car and leave....and let KNOW ONE see the gun on my way out.....I ask why.....He said that the 16" Barrell length on the .22 hornet makes it an Illegal gun SBR........I said OK....BYE!!!

    Then about 2-days later I was in a boating accident.....lost it.....It was a shame...

  9. #9
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    Default survival rifle

    When I first got to Viet Nam the ejection packs were fitted with the take down semi automatic .22 like in Billofthenorths post. within 90 days they were all fitted with a rather ingenious folding (wire) stock version of the M16. Given the unreliability of the M16 at the time I think I would rather had a shotgun or something else. Also the Smith and colt 4" barrel 38 special was part of the standard survival gear
    Oldgoat46
    " In Biblical times Samson slew 40,000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass. Everyday an equal number of sales are killed by the use of the same weapon."

  10. #10
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    16 inch barrel on a rifle is fine, perfectly legal.. but it is a minimum of 18 inch on a shotgun.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmmoSgt View Post
    16 inch barrel on a rifle is fine, perfectly legal.. but it is a minimum of 18 inch on a shotgun.
    oops....that's what I meant.....the .410 was too short....keyword "WAS"

  12. #12
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    The original military-issue M6 had 14½" barrels for both components and therefore are NFA regulated. They are now C&R-eligible, but transfer and ownership must still be in compliance with the aforementioned law.

    There are, of course, modern versions with barrels long enough as to not require the tax stamp, etc.
    "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever." — I Timothy 5:8 (NASB)

    "One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." — Thomas Jefferson, June 19, 1796

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuralTurtle View Post
    The original military-issue M6 had 14½" barrels for both components and therefore are NFA regulated. They are now C&R-eligible, but transfer and ownership must still be in compliance with the aforementioned law.

    There are, of course, modern versions with barrels long enough as to not require the tax stamp, etc.
    Which is a BS LAW!!!!!!......That's like passing a law that Dildo's can not bet over a certain length......you wouldn't want to do damage or enlarge a certain area.....Hell, the Dildo Law would make more sense even....lol

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by falm16 View Post
    billoftheN, did you buy yours new? just checked gunbroker.... they have an "original" stock for 395, other M6's are 3 to 800 bucks. had no idea they would be that high. they do look nice, and most of them are in 22 hornet/410.
    I picked up mine at a gunshow for $200. I don't think it was new but it is in near new condition. Made by CZ.
    The surplus of verbiage oft times consummates in a loss of perspicacity!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostCat View Post
    Which is a BS LAW!!!!!!......That's like passing a law that Dildo's can not bet over a certain length......you wouldn't want to do damage or enlarge a certain area.....Hell, the Dildo Law would make more sense even....lol

    Funny coming from somebody who lives in Alabama where it is illegal to sell dildos. No dildo's with or without CARB approved ventialtion devices.. however some stores still sell pre ban dildo's under the lable of "medical devices" ( but without assault slings) .. seriouly.. it's Alabama law. For details see http://betterthanieverexpected.blogs...t-have-my.html public law code of Alabama sections 13A-12-200.2 and 13A-12-20.3
    Last edited by AmmoSgt; 01-05-2009 at 08:37 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmmoSgt View Post
    Funny coming from somebody who lives in Alabama where it is illegal to sell dildos. No dildo's with or without CARB approved ventialtion devices.. however some stores still sell pre ban dildo's under the lable of "medical devices" ( but without assault slings) .. seriouly.. it's Alabama law.
    Yep....I know you're Serious.....The Southern Baptist love coming into your home and tell you how to live.....I guess it's suppose to make them feel better.
    Sometimes I just want to run into a Church on a Sunday with a Dildo/Chainsaw.......Ruuunnnnnn..chugga..chugga..chugga. .chugga..chugga.......LOL
    I can see it now...all the little ole church ladies getting all excited......LOL

  17. #17
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    i'd like to see a pic of one of those ithacas. GC, where did you get yours? sick you lost it, looks like they are very valuable now. BilloftheN, does 410 shells stash in the top of the stock on yours?
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

  18. #18
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    Give me a day or two to dig-up the PICS of the one I USE to have......I'll post'em.....
    Yes, Shells are stored in the Top of the stock.....both .410 and .22 hornet shells.
    The firing pin selector goes up and down to select which caliber you're firing......the Rear sights Pivot up/down to select the rear aperture......
    It also says on the gun, Property of the US AIR FORCE.......
    I got the gun from a Family member.....
    Last edited by GhostCat; 01-05-2009 at 09:57 PM.

  19. #19
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    man, i would like one of those, especially with the AF logo.
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by falm16 View Post
    looks like they are very valuable now.
    Where do you get this info from?????......How Valuable are they????........just curious.

  21. #21
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    saw a few on gunbroker, up there in price, and i don't think these were the originals. also remember seeing one at a gunshow, new, and thought that springfield was awful proud of a simple looking gun.
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

  22. #22
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    Default I feel your pain,....

    ...GC, because the same unfortunate thing happened to my Uncle's Marble Game Getter.
    Pistol keeps me safe.
    Shotgun keeps me fed.
    Rifle keeps me free.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by falm16 View Post
    .... BilloftheN, does 410 shells stash in the top of the stock on yours?

    Yeah, you have holes for four shells and something like fifteen .22s. Probably a good idea to get a sleeve or even a pouch for more ammo if you think you'll really use it for it's intended purpose.
    I saw one site where a guy put matches, fishing hooks etc into a couple of the .410 slots, wrapped para cord around the barrel and basically turned the thing into a survival kit with a gun attached.

    Here's the link.
    http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/v-shrake/m6.html

    I did the para cord thing with mine too but you don't really need it to protect you from the 'heat' of firing, just a handy way to have some rope along. From my experience the .410 isn't that accurate at long ranges so the extra ammo is definately good to have. I would guess bird shot and buck shot would get you a better chance of fresh meat than a slug and of course you can bring along all kinds of .22 variants which is reasonably accurate.

    I'm wondering if the .22LR can be safely reamed out to take a .22 Hornet?
    Last edited by Billofthenorth2; 01-06-2009 at 11:07 AM.
    The surplus of verbiage oft times consummates in a loss of perspicacity!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU

  24. #24
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    My Dad was friends with a retired USAF Senior Chief Master Sgt. He was chief of a supply depot during Viet Nam. Anyway - he got the USAF Survival Rifle from the seat pack kit from a crashed fighter. He paid the Para Rescue guy to get it for him. He gave it to me when I was about 16. It was a 22 Hornet (5 shot) bolt action. Wire collapsing stock - pistol grip. Made by H&R - marked (M4 USAF Survival). When I found out that the barrel was too short to be legal, I gave it back. WM

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billofthenorth2 View Post
    I'm wondering if the .22LR can be safely reamed out to take a .22 Hornet?
    I've only examined one of those, my guess is that altering the breechface to centerfire might not be wise.
    I'd have to look at one very closely to be sure though.
    Probably better to ream it to .22 Magnum, the action is certainly strong enough for that, and the .22 Magnum is nothing to sneeze at in a rifle length bore.
    I've seen the scar left by a .22 magnum that passed through a guy's calf muscle, a pretty impressive wound. I've also heard of Whitetail taken by neckshots using the .22 magnum, its not recommended but can be done, and I doubt the Hornet has much greater wounding ability. Neither is a good choice for game over 60 pounds.

  26. #26
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    [QUOTE=GunnerSam;651674]I've only examined one of those, my guess is that altering the breechface to centerfire might not be wise.
    I'd have to look at one very closely to be sure though.
    Probably better to ream it to .22 Magnum, ...QUOTE]

    Cool, I didn't realize .22 hornet was centerfire, I've never fired one. Thanks.
    The surplus of verbiage oft times consummates in a loss of perspicacity!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU

  27. #27
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    [quote=Billofthenorth2;651693]
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerSam View Post
    I've only examined one of those, my guess is that altering the breechface to centerfire might not be wise.
    I'd have to look at one very closely to be sure though.
    Probably better to ream it to .22 Magnum, ...QUOTE]

    Cool, I didn't realize .22 hornet was centerfire, I've never fired one. Thanks.
    I forgot to add that the bore diameter and rifiling twists are not the same between .22LR and .22 Magnum. The Magnum bores are usually .001 larger.
    Best to check the specifications. Bore diameter shouldn't be a problem but some bores might not be accurate if the twist isn't right.

    PS
    Few .22 LR rifles are strong enough for the much higher pressures of the .22 magnum, so its not a recommended practice unless the rifle is one known to be strong enough.
    My .22 Savage for example has a nearly identical big brother in .22 magnum, but the magnum version has two locking lugs where as my .22 LR has only one.
    Last edited by GunnerSam; 01-06-2009 at 01:43 PM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billofthenorth2 View Post
    Cool, I didn't realize .22 hornet was centerfire, I've never fired one. Thanks.
    .22 Hornet is an AWESOME Round.....never underestimate that Round.....

  29. #29
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    I have a rifle/shotgun that probably evolved out of the military version, and is a great deal less expensive. It's a Stevens model .22-.410 with a tenanite sp? {type of plastic} stock. Handy little rifle. Primarily use the upper .22 long rifle barrel with subsonic ammo for garden pests as I live in town and try not to upset the neighbors anymore than necessary.

  30. #30
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    22 mag or 17hmr would be nice on top of that rifle. i'm gonna keep looking, got the urge for one. legal or not with the short barrel, if i'd been given one by a family member, it would have been hard to give it back. :D had an AR7 years ago, pretty much a single shot. also had i think one like mark harlin describes, when i was way youn g, don't remeber what happened to that one.
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

  31. #31
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    Default Pics up!

    Here ya go Falm!!














  32. #32
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    NICE, now that's the real deal. boating accident, huh? you could have at least taken the snowflake sheets off before taking the photo. :D well, that's your story and you're sticking to it. i've got a big magnet and will give you a hundred bucks if we can go to the scene of the accident and pull it up. to me, that's a true war trophy, too bad they make it illegal for the average joe to own.
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

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    Quote Originally Posted by falm16 View Post
    NICE, now that's the real deal. boating accident, huh? you could have at least taken the snowflake sheets off before taking the photo. :D well, that's your story and you're sticking to it. i've got a big magnet and will give you a hundred bucks if we can go to the scene of the accident and pull it up. to me, that's a true war trophy, too bad they make it illegal for the average joe to own.

    falm i am pretty sure gc has a magnet in his head. just hold him by the feet and see what you can find.

  34. #34
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    Seriously.....The Boat just capsized and everything was lost.....

  35. #35
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    how deep was the water, i'm scuba certified. :D
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

  36. #36
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    weld a barrel extension on it underwater before you bring it up and you'll be ok. Just need someone with good underwater welding ability

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostCat View Post
    Seriously.....The Boat just capsized and everything was lost.....

    I can only imagine how bad that felt.

    If Obama screws over our 2A rights I imagine there will be a lot of 'boating' losses Nationwide.
    Last edited by Billofthenorth2; 01-07-2009 at 10:44 AM.
    The surplus of verbiage oft times consummates in a loss of perspicacity!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU

  38. #38
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    I think I need to buy a boat.

  39. #39
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    Default Heck,....

    Quote Originally Posted by AmmoSgt View Post
    I think I need to buy a boat.
    ...just borrow mine. It's got a bad history to it, bad juju indeed, since Uncle LG lost his Marble Game Getter outa it. It's okay, though, we put an x on the side of the boat where he dropped it.
    Pistol keeps me safe.
    Shotgun keeps me fed.
    Rifle keeps me free.

  40. #40
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Billofthenorth2 View Post
    You might mean the M6 Scout I have one that's a .22 over a .410. Though they had other 'survival' rifles.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springf...rmory_M6_Scout

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-7

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MA-1_Survival_Rifle


    I also seem to remember a bolt action 22 Hornet that was made similar to an AR-7 take-down 22LR.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Harlin Chaney View Post
    I have a rifle/shotgun that probably evolved out of the military version, and is a great deal less expensive. It's a Stevens model .22-.410 with a tenanite sp? {type of plastic} stock. Handy little rifle. Primarily use the upper .22 long rifle barrel with subsonic ammo for garden pests as I live in town and try not to upset the neighbors anymore than necessary.



    Yep, that evolved into the Savage M24, which was made until fairly recently.

    It was made in a variety of rimfire & centerfire calibers over a 410 bore, 20ga or 12 ga shotgun.

    Pretty hand little gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostCat View Post
    Which is a BS LAW!!!!!!......That's like passing a law that Dildo's can not bet over a certain length......you wouldn't want to do damage or enlarge a certain area.....Hell, the Dildo Law would make more sense even....lol
    That may be the funniest thing I have read on here in a long time. I am not a fan of that BS law, either. Especially in a survival rifle. These aren't assault guns and never be misconstrued into one, either. Even Dumbocrats could see that.

  43. #43
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    Glad ya liked it bootlegger....I try, I try......LOL

    Oh, and THANKS for the .300 WIN MAG AMMO and BRASS!!!!!!!.......


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    Out of curiousity, what was the trigger/lever pull like on those? I remember seeing the civilian models when I was younger. Are they still being made?

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    An unusual rifle one should keep an eye out for is the military type Remington Nylon .22 rifle. It wasn't meant to be a survival rifle from what I've read but rather to exterminate pests around military bases.
    I've only read of a few parts of these showing up here and there, most likely spare parts made for a trial run.

    If the information is correct these are basically the same as the civilian version but with a matt black plastic stock and parkerised metal.

    I think the Savage Model 24 and its predecessors predated its limited use as a survival rifle.
    Its the best off the shelf survival rifle I can think of.
    The basic rifle/shotgun combo came in a wide variety of styles and caliber/gauge combinations.

    A friend was asked to evaluate a large number of rifles and shotguns a local car dealer had accumulated over the decades. The dealer actually had little interest in guns but its a sort of tradition here for car dealers to take rifles and shotguns as part of a trade or in leu of a down payment for a car.
    Many a working man in need of a car has found his old rifle to be one of the few things of value he can use as trading stock.
    Anyway the Car dealer had a German Drilling in 16X16 over 7mm with pop up sight for the rifle barrel.
    Looking up information on that gun I found that the Luftwaffe had commissioned a competition for the best survival gun and chose a similar Drilling.
    One of the contenders was a JP Sauer & Son entry with the receiver cast from the same alloy used for ME-109 landing gear, the wood used was picked for lightweight and every un-necessary ounce trimmed from the steel parts. I don't think that gun made the cut but a few examples survived the war.

    A sturdy Drilling with inserts for the shot barrels to allow use of whatever ammo was available would be tough to beat.
    12X12 over 7.62 NATO with auxillary .32 acp inserts would be a pretty potent package for the far north.
    12X12 over 5.56 with .22 rimfire inserts would handle anything in the southern climes.

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