Gew98 Research - Page 2
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Thread: Gew98 Research

  1. #46
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    Spandau 1910, 9788 b
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 98_oben.jpg   98_seite.jpg  

  2. #47
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    Spandau 1907

    4247b

  3. #48
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    Excellent contributions, - the 1910 Spandau is the first I have seen w/o issues apparently.. have two others, one a salvaged sterngewehr, KCN has them to the 'c' block but they didn't have a high survival rate apparently (so far); the 1907 across the board is well reported and observed, 5 imaged examples plus a couple reports like this one for Spandau.. Read somewhere that 1907 was a commitment year and they really upped the production that year (shows in observations too)
    Spandau, not surprisingly because of its status in the German armaments industry is one of the most well observed amongst all the makers pre-war, we actually have at least 2 observations for each year 1899-1918 (though not all are products of that year- post war assemblies & sterngewehrs- there is also the issue of 1908, we have two reports, one even an image of dubious quality but very possibly Spandau did mfg that year? Everyone else did so why not Spandau? MG’s? Another subject I guess as I don’t know why MarkW left them off for 1908.. even tooling up for the MG08 would not have ended G98 production?)

    Very interesting arsenal! Thanks for the reports- Peter if you have the opportunity perhaps a right receiver shot, like to document the acceptance on the receiver. I don't have a clear image of a 1910 Spandau's acceptance.

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  5. #49
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    here some pic's

    if you need some others, please let it me know...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 98_abnahme.jpg   kolben.jpg   kolben_sernien.jpg   kolbenhals.jpg   unten_1.jpg   unten_2.jpg  


  6. #50
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    Also have a Mauser Oberndorf 1918 3940 L with Turk mark on receiver.
    Kar98 Erfurt 1917 - 1920 6047 n All matching except the bolt. This rifle has PWB 1920 marked on the stock

  7. #51
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    VERY helpful! Different than I expected, though these do vary they also are often consistent in inspectors, - these are seen on others before and after but different locations- not sure it will lead anywhere but with enough examples maybe? Hopefully I can gather enough to find a pattern- or not?
    The pre-wars are hardest to get 'original' acceptance markings for- much appreciated!

    You know the barrel mfg/code? (got what I needed but just being greedy..)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterS View Post
    here some pic's

    if you need some others, please let it me know...

  8. #52
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    Very cool- I use to own 1917/20 Erfurt ser. 6047 n PwB, sold it a few years back.. very cool rifle! As I recall it had a Böhler barrel on it?
    Pretty much done with collecting the 98a, use to be my focus of sorts (still collect the data though!), - Simson Suhl is my deal now, but that was a cool rifle no doubt!

    Good to know it has a good home!

    Quote Originally Posted by maximvikers View Post
    Also have a Mauser Oberndorf 1918 3940 L with Turk mark on receiver.
    Kar98 Erfurt 1917 - 1920 6047 n All matching except the bolt. This rifle has PWB 1920 marked on the stock

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    VERY helpful! Different than I expected, though these do vary they also are often consistent in inspectors, - these are seen on others before and after but different locations- not sure it will lead anywhere but with enough examples maybe? Hopefully I can gather enough to find a pattern- or not?
    The pre-wars are hardest to get 'original' acceptance markings for- much appreciated!

    You know the barrel mfg/code? (got what I needed but just being greedy..)
    I'll strip down the rifle in the next time, but it is a deactivated rifle, with holes at the down site of the barrel :-((((

    So i hope the mfg/code is intact.

    I bought the rifle because a pre-war rifle is not common here, too.

    I have here a book who listed some inspector names to the markings depending on the combination of time & maker. If You send me your e-Mail adress, I'll send your a e-copy.

    viele Gruesse

    Peter

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    If politicians and world leaders were as cooperative as milsurp enthusiasts, there would be no milsurp.

  11. #55
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    Much appreciated, I have written a small piece on my Simson Suhl barrel blank observations and spent hours cataloging known/observable barrel blank contractors for the German commercial firms, - arsenals too- there seems to be a preponderance among the three big steel blank producers mentioned in Dr. Storz, Krupp of course, Böhler & Bismarckhütte too but there are others I believe too, we have a number of different suppliers and I have not identified them all- quite minimal liste compared to the Second World War production!

    Any future contributors to this thread, it would be most appreciated if you’d consider doing top/right/left receiver shots, clear as possible, and the barrel code if you can? These and anything unusual- on some mfg the receivers under the woodline are important like Simson Suhl & the rest of the Suhl makers- but also DWM & Oberspree 1917-1919 acceptance as that is key to research being conducted by another collector that we hope will publish next issue.. won't give the details away as its simply too intriguing to ruin by going into but especially late 1918 DWM & Oberspree are VERY important to this study- the acceptance is most important here.

    For the MRJ'r out there expect your issues soon! This is a Czech special, any Czech collectors won't want to miss- the front page should be up on the MRJ website tonight or tomorrow.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeterS View Post
    I'll strip down the rifle in the next time, but it is a deactivated rifle, with holes at the down site of the barrel :-((((

    So i hope the mfg/code is intact.

    I bought the rifle because a pre-war rifle is not common here, too.

    I have here a book who listed some inspector names to the markings depending on the combination of time & maker. If You send me your e-Mail adress, I'll send your a e-copy.

    viele Gruesse

    Peter

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  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    You know the barrel mfg/code? (got what I needed but just being greedy..)
    here it is...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails unten_10.jpg  

  14. #58
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    Very nice! Thanks again, for taking the time to make the observation. One of the hardest things to get as far as reliable data is the barrel codes and under the woodline observations as its difficult enough to convince a owner to image a rifle needless to disassemble it!

    While working on my Simson barrel article I was shocked by the limited observations I was able to list in detail, I mean I thought I had significantly more than it turned out, and though I had 2x 3x more that were partials or obscured I couldn't use them generally.. it is very hard to make quality opinions without adequate data and even a database as substantial as mine currently is it is utterly inadequate in many respects.

    I suppose its like anything, you develope the premise and what I had started out as simply a serial number extension to figure production, quickly became one to pattern acceptance, then to reworks & depots, and now to barrel blank contractors!

    Anyway, thanks for the better than average contribution! Very helpful!

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterS View Post
    here it is...

  15. #59
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    Default 1916 Oberndorf

    Here are some images of my 1916 Oberndorf. All s/n's match and it still has the original sling with the quick release as well as the cleaning rod.

    Husk
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSCN2560.JPG   DSCN2562.JPG   DSCN2563.JPG   DSCN2564.JPG  

  16. #60
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    Very good! I note the 'BS' on the sling m-buckle, might there be a 'BS' on the right barrel shoulder and or stock? Do an image of the right receiver & stock acceptance and let us know if it’s a 'BS'?

    Very nice on another account, this is like 1000 rifles off the known high, very close! (Yours is somewhat better shape as the known confirmed high is a UK deact.. ) I really like it when I get another in support of the same high, as it confirms our data as a single 'high' that is improperly recorded really boinkers up a database as you discount other rifles simply because you already have a higher report. (why I like image confirmation, datasheet or multiple observations- especially with tricky letters like 'e')

    Thanks for the report!

    Quote Originally Posted by husk View Post
    Here are some images of my 1916 Oberndorf. All s/n's match and it still has the original sling with the quick release as well as the cleaning rod.

    Husk

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    Some more images...
    Husk
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSCN2568.JPG   DSCN2569.JPG   DSCN2570.JPG  

  18. #62
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    Well, it was a long shot.. but the 'BS' on the sling and you saying 'original' I figured why not!

    Still a nice rifle!

    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by husk View Post
    Some more images...
    Husk

  19. #63
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    My Gew is an Obernforf 1915 - SN 8450g. Mostly matching except bolt, rear guard screw, follower, and bolt stop. Bolt matches itself and is 8391i.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 3.JPG  

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    Quite nice, I answered your questions in the other thread- as did Greg & Runner- but do a close up of the right receiver acceptance?

    Need 4 angles where ever possible- very important to my research as I am tracking barrel blank providers (at least 6 different ones I believe, Storz doesn't mention all noted, and some 'possibly' could be duplicate codes of the same provider or finisher variations to code but I tend to think there is a possibility there are more than the 3 Storz notes.); also track acceptance and this is VERY important to late war products (especially DWM & Oberspree products); and serial numbers of course so we can categorize the production properly.

    Need top/right/left receiver and the barrel code wherever possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoggie View Post
    My Gew is an Obernforf 1915 - SN 8450g. Mostly matching except bolt, rear guard screw, follower, and bolt stop. Bolt matches itself and is 8391i.

  21. #65
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    Here is the best I can get, I tried to keep them as hi-res as I could.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC00020.JPG   DSC00091.JPG   DSC00092.JPG   DSC00093.JPG   DSC00094.JPG   DSC00095.JPG  


  22. #66
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    If only others would try half as hard! Wonderful pics!

    I am studying German steel producers and there are a surprising number from Imperial era (numbers of firms, some small others significant- many associated with one another, - not surprisingly! More than a dozen in Silesia alone!), seems this 'BS' is the one closest associated with Mauser during the war, - so far only Mauser (1915-1917) examples and one Spandau (1915) has shown this code.
    Not sure its Böhler but its true the various steel mfg had different codes in use by different end users.. Böhler had several codes and logos, and on helmets they were reportedly GB, numerous barrel observations (pre & during the war) BÖ, and some variations depending on who you read.. I have a few thoughts to BS other than Böhler but still working on it.
    Possibly a variation as to finisher and date (perhaps Mauser in this time frame changed its designation? (they did use BÖ pre-war certainly); perhaps different finishers had different codes in use as helmet makers vs barrels? (GB equals the same as BÖ at around the same time frame- Böhler I am unsure of if they were actual finishers of the helmets or whether Böhlers Berlin facility used a different code? Than Austrian facilities?

    Anyway, this is the purpose of this thread- to answer or try to answer these types of questions. Your images and willingness to try and photograph the areas is what makes it possible. (hence my elaboration.. I try to reciprocate when collectors share data, - this is the only way it should work.)

    Thanks for the great pics and I hope my ruminating helps on your barrel code.


    Quote Originally Posted by stoggie View Post
    Here is the best I can get, I tried to keep them as hi-res as I could.

  23. #67

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    Here are a few pictures of my Danzig 1916. All matching, except bolt, which is all mismatched but has imperial stamps.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Gew 98 13.JPG   Gew 98 14.JPG   Gew 98 15.JPG  

  24. #68
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    Very nice images- better than the auction images. Missing the buttplate? Seems so in the auction pics? Quite a good pick up really as even bolt m/m are getting hard to find these days (for most of us!)

    Thanks!

  25. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    Missing the buttplate? Seems so in the auction pics? Quite a good pick up really as even bolt m/m are getting hard to find these days (for most of us!)
    Yeah the buttplate is missing, and there are a few chips and a crack because of it. But like the guy said in the auction description, how can a gun lose its buttplate, and the screw holes are filled with what I hope is trench dirt. So I think I'm just going to leave it plate-less. other than that its a nice stock though; many imperial stamps and the number matches.

  26. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingMantis View Post
    Yeah the buttplate is missing, and there are a few chips and a crack because of it. But like the guy said in the auction description, how can a gun lose its buttplate, and the screw holes are filled with what I hope is trench dirt. So I think I'm just going to leave it plate-less. other than that its a nice stock though; many imperial stamps and the number matches.

    The buttplate was likely removed by some well intentioned bubba long ago. To think the holes for the woodscrews are filled with "trench dirt" is a silly presumtion.
    To leave off the buttplate - that's like leaving off the handguard.You have already mentioned some of the damage because it is missing - I'd put one on it pronto. The screw holes are very possibly filled with old "mud dobber" wasp nests.
    When you find old mud encrusted under a buttplate it is usually only a tiny bit...and usually the butt will be darkended from the water contact. Ever see pics of the soldiers in the great war with the butts of their rifles swimming in mud. Look for SMLE's , gew/kar98a's , lebels etc etc with butts darkened from water immersion ( mud ) and you likely have found a peice that was well used in the trenches.

  27. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Billdildoe View Post
    The buttplate was likely removed by some well intentioned bubba long ago. To think the holes for the woodscrews are filled with "trench dirt" is a silly presumtion.
    To leave off the buttplate - that's like leaving off the handguard.You have already mentioned some of the damage because it is missing - I'd put one on it pronto. The screw holes are very possibly filled with old "mud dobber" wasp nests.
    When you find old mud encrusted under a buttplate it is usually only a tiny bit...and usually the butt will be darkended from the water contact. Ever see pics of the soldiers in the great war with the butts of their rifles swimming in mud. Look for SMLE's , gew/kar98a's , lebels etc etc with butts darkened from water immersion ( mud ) and you likely have found a peice that was well used in the trenches.
    I don't want to sound naive, but I still think the buttplate was lost prior to the end of the war. The chips themselves are filled with a good deal of mud, and, especially on the upper and lower bottom of the stock, there are black marks that indicate water damage. However, the dark spots do not go very far up on the stock, except underneath, where it reaches to the first proof mark. There, and I just noticed this, is also black on the edge of the butt thats looks like it was caused by being trapped by the buttplate, but there is also a chip that has apparent blackness in it. I cleaned out the lower screw hole and the dirt was very black but came out easily enough. The top hole is almost collapsed though, and I'm not going to try to clear it.

    It all comes down to what you want to believe though. I don't really think someone removed the buttplate with the intention of "fixing it up" then let it sit in water, but I guess it could have happened. For now it sits in a safe place where it won't be chipped anymore. When I take it out to shoot I'll take the buttplate off my Turkish 93 and use for the day.
    Last edited by PrayingMantis; 01-27-2008 at 11:17 AM.

  28. #72
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    Of course impossible to prove or be certain- impossible to prove something wasn't or isn't.. however I think the best course is to either put a buttplate on it to prevent future damage or to display it where its not resting on its buttstock.
    To use the rifle in anyway without a buttplate will only further damage the buttstock.

    I do agree that its clearly been off for a longtime and past owners thought little to fix it as its quite chipped already. Probably wouldn't be a straight forward repair putting that buttplate on either as my experience with re-attaching a buttplate on a 36 S/147 showed, - that top hole isn't as easy to perfectly line up when you actually try it (looks easier than it is)

    Up to you of course, as it is your property- thanks for sharing the data!

  29. #73
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    V. Chr. Schilling
    Suhl
    1917


    # 8082
    g (looks like a g in script. almost like an &.)
    Last edited by 303hunter; 02-05-2008 at 04:48 PM.

  30. #74
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    What might the suffix (letter under serial number) be? I see it in your pics but your pics are very poor and hard to tell details? (they are known to the 'n' block, potentially more? By serial ranges not a rare or scarce rifle? Not at all?)

    Nothing sells a rifle like quality pics, especially if you seek top dollar- like $800-900 certainly is for a DC, heavily patinaed rifle? Not a bad maker but for such a rifle you might consider quality pics for your sell?

    As discussed elsewhere, VCS is an interesting maker, as is CGH & S&S, in that considering reported highs and production numbers recorded there are a very few remaining in original trim, quality and to be honest I can't doubt the possibility the 3 makers combined production? (more than what Storz suggests, more than simple collaboration?)

    MarkW once told me he found of all the war time makers S&S the hardest to find matching, original & quality? How could that be with so high reporting between the three? VCS & Sauer to the 'o' block minimally & CGH to 'K' in 1917 alone? (much higher in 1916?)

    Well if you observe a database over 4-5 years as we currently have there is few and far between amongst these makers observed? Yet high block reporting?

    Perhaps more than collaboration?

    Quote Originally Posted by 303hunter View Post
    V. Chr. Schilling
    Suhl
    1917


    # 8082

  31. #75
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    Spandau 1904

    5340 c

    Click image for larger version. 

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  32. #76
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    Thanks!

    Saw the other post, nice pick up.. this is very near the high for that year too. (7095 c) did you say the stock matched? Was it original? (mfg original)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    Thanks!

    Saw the other post, nice pick up.. this is very near the high for that year too. (7095 c) did you say the stock matched? Was it original? (mfg original)
    Stock matches, the handguard doesn't.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I haven't had it apart to check # inside.

  34. #78
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    Awesome!

    Really good to confirm the stock is original to the rifle as if you go by patterns of mfg/date/serialing & unit markings within the 98a database you can see these were issued in batches and some we have been able to identify with the same unit the same mfg/date/serial ranges to the same units. (we have several very close in mfg/serial with very close unit markings, a couple sets of 3)
    Naturally the Gewehr98's are much harder to find pre-war original stocked and its a harder pattern to follow, but if you assume the Gewehr98's were issued similar to the 98a (and some bayonet comparisons) then these may have been group together for delivery in batches? Depots first of course, but tended to go to the units in batches as well?

    Anyway, its good to know when a rifle has its original stock if it has a unit marking- for this purpose. (for one thing I have two Garde marked stock sets I'd like to get a feel for what actions were in it originally!)




    Quote Originally Posted by jebber View Post
    Stock matches, the handguard doesn't.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I haven't had it apart to check # inside.

  35. #79
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    I have a Gew 98 here, mismatched everything, but the barrel, reciever, and rear sight.

    All full military, with a unique proof on the LH side of the receiver. I have no idea what it is. I'll get a good pic of it, and post it. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

    Info as fol:
    Gew 98
    Simson & Co Suhl, 1916
    SN 1811g
    "For Frankie and Mick, I now know why the Channel 7 chopper chills you to your feet"

  36. #80
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    Awesome, my favorite subject!

    Try and get the barrel code, it will most likely be under the wood line so disassembly is needed. If you can take pics, do them of the top/right/left receiver, barrel markings, barrel code most especially. If its a tangent rearsight upgrade all of the rear sight bits if matched (usually the sleeve is original.)

    These days I have developed the database to incorporate the barrel code data and as always the right receiver acceptance is very critical.

    On a note to Simson Suhl enthusiasts, Joe Steen submitted his article last week, 4 pages on the S28 (often time attributed to Simson Suhl- though some are more convinced than others) I will lead with this article next issue of the MRJ. (not surprisingly..)


    Quote Originally Posted by 1feral1 View Post
    I have a Gew 98 here, mismatched everything, but the barrel, reciever, and rear sight.

    All full military, with a unique proof on the LH side of the receiver. I have no idea what it is. I'll get a good pic of it, and post it. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

    Info as fol:
    Gew 98
    Simson & Co Suhl, 1916
    SN 1811g

  37. #81
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    Thanks for your eagerness to assist! I will get some good pics this weekend, and post them on here. Hopefully we both can learn more about this rifle.

    Cheers/beers,

    Wes
    "For Frankie and Mick, I now know why the Channel 7 chopper chills you to your feet"

  38. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1feral1 View Post
    Thanks for your eagerness to assist! I will get some good pics this weekend, and post them on here. Hopefully we both can learn more about this rifle.

    Cheers/beers,

    Wes

    Here is some pics I took on Friday night.

    Hope they can answer some questions about that wierd proof on the left hand side of the rifle.

    Cheers,

    Wes
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P3020001.JPG   P3020002.JPG   P3020003.JPG   P3020004.JPG   P3020005.JPG   P3020007.JPG  

    "For Frankie and Mick, I now know why the Channel 7 chopper chills you to your feet"

  39. #83
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    Weird proof? Can you image it? All I see is the Prussian fireproof and serial number on the left side?

    Is there something else?

  40. #84
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    This proof looks different from others on this thread, so is the proof on my Gew 98, although appears different, is it common?

    Take a good close look, and compare it to the other rifles on this thread.

    Looking forward to hearing a response.

    Cheers and thanks,

    Wes
    "For Frankie and Mick, I now know why the Channel 7 chopper chills you to your feet"

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1feral1 View Post
    This proof looks different from others on this thread, so is the proof on my Gew 98, although appears different, is it common?
    Wes, like Graf mentioned, that's a typical Prussian military proof. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...2-1918.svg.png Just a little more on the worn side.
    "Mitgegangen, mitgefangen, mitgehangen." Went with, caught with, hung with. – Old German saying.

  42. #86
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    As already stated, it's a standard Prussian proof, the proof was not always identical, it varied in minor details from maker to maker as well as year, meaning the same maker might have a slightly different proof from one year to the next(or even within the same year). the die stamps did wear out and were replaced as needed.

    Two 1916 Danzig's, proof's are noticably different.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails fp 1.JPG   fp 2.JPG  
    Last edited by Greg Myers; 03-02-2008 at 10:44 AM.

  43. #87
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    This is very true- the Prussian fireproofs are not all identical, some changed 'slightly' over time and varied mfg/mfg, -some are quite distinctive (like Danzig).

    The right receiver acceptance changed too with the same maker, very often in the same year- Simson Suhl was no exception.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Myers View Post
    As already stated, it's a standard Prussian proof, the proof was not always identical, it varied in minor details from maker to maker as well as year, meaning the same maker might have a slightly different proof from one year to the next(or even within the same year). the die stamps did wear out and were replaced as needed.

    Two 1916 Danzig's, proof's are noticably different.

  44. #88
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    Thanks for your input, and what I thought was a mystery is now not. I will get some pics of the bolt also.

    On the cocking piece there is a rectangle proof, with a cross in it, also an A in a circle, and the SN on the bolt is T, and four numbers. Any guesses?? The handle of teh bolt is straight, adn the wear matches the gun overall, so that have been together for a while.

    Anyways, I will get a pic of this tonight when I get home. Currently its 5.40am on Mon, and I am off to work.


    Cheers,

    Wes
    "For Frankie and Mick, I now know why the Channel 7 chopper chills you to your feet"

  45. #89
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    Mauser was in Württemburg and will usually have the Prussian fireproof on this era rifles (Great War era). Some will have the Württemburg proofhouse 'antlers' for commercial and some state contracts (from Württemburg, the late AmbroseS showed us a nice one back in 2004- you see this more commonly on early Mauser production and later commercial Gewehr98 types, but they are not commonly seen rifles, most Mauser products will be as yours is, Prussian proofed).
    Amberg is the only Bavarian fireproofed rifles you will find, they were their state arsenal. Dr. Storz is good for this subject and much of the book is focused from this perspective.

  46. #90
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    Bill, you have received a warning. Let it go.
    T.P.
    Last edited by TP; 03-02-2008 at 07:07 PM.

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