* Berthier Carbine and Rifle Information *
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Thread: * Berthier Carbine and Rifle Information *

  1. #1
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    Default * Berthier Carbine and Rifle Information *

    ©
    Pictures of the various type of Berthier Fusils, Carabines and Mousquetons from the collection of my friend John Sheehan (JPS) a WWI collector and researcher


    Prototype à base de Carabine Modèle 1890


    Top: Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 2ème type
    Middle: Carabine de Cuirassier Modèle 1890
    Bottom: Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890 avec Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1890



    Top: Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 avec Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892 du premier (1ème) type
    Middle: Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 avec embouchoir Modèle 1902 pour Batteries Alpine et Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892 du deuxième (2ème) type ... This was an un-official Model
    Bottom: Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 Modifié 1916 avec Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892-1915 du troisième (3ème) type



    Top: Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902 avec Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1902
    Middle: Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902 Modifié 1916 avec Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1902
    Bottom: Fusil de Tirailleur Sénégalais "Colonial" Modèle 1907



    Top: Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 avec Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886
    Bottom: Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1916 avec Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886-1915



    Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1934



    Top: Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1890
    2nd down: Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 ... the handles were originally made in German Nickle Silver (bronze de nickel) and after October 1914 they were made in brass (laiton)
    3rd down: Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886-1915 ... La poignée en bronze de nickel (German Nickle Silver handle)
    4th down: Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886-1915 ... La poignée en laiton (Brass handle)
    5th down: Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886-1915 ... La poignée en acier (Steel handle), these handles came into use after July of 1917
    Bottom: Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1886-1916 ... Very rare bladed version bayonet

    This information is © protected by the author
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 12-08-2015 at 08:18 AM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  2. #2
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    Berthier Carabine, Mousqueton et Fusil Histoire

    1887 - The Comité de L'Artillerie (Committee of the Artillery), which was later changed to the names of Section Technique de l'Artillerie (Technical Section of the Artillery) in 1910 and Section Technique de l'Armée (Technical Section of the Army) in 1946, headed by Général Gallifet decided to experiment in making a carbine version of the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1886 'Lebel' (Rifle of Infantry Model 1886 'Lebel') with the following requirements: It had to use the same cartridge already in service, Cartouche à Balle Ordinaire Modèle 1886, the magazine capacity had to equal or better 5 rounds and the final weight of the weapon shall not be over 3,6 kg (7.93 pounds). Under the direction of the L'Ecole Normale de Tir (E.N.T.) (The School of Normal Shooting) a prototype carbine which was to be called the Carabine de Essai Modèle 1887 (Model 1887 Test Carbine) was built. This carbine was basically was a shortened rifle with a 6 round capacity with a shortened butt stock, forearm and barrel. It also had a slightly modified rear sight, which was only graduated to 1800 meters, a small straight ball-tipped stacking hook was added to the upper barrel band, a rotating swivel mounted on the underside of the stock and a concentric ring mounted on the left side of the lower barrel band. The experiment did not meet expectations of the Comité de L'Artillerie due to a number of reasons with the main ones being, it was unable to meet the weight factor as well as the magazine tube system did not work properly unless it under 4 rounds. The project was finally dropped on 28th of February 1890 but 45 years later it was revived again with successful results resulting in the Mousqueton de Artillerie et Cavalerie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 Raccourci 1935 (Musketoons of Artillery and Cavalry Model 1886 Modified 1893 Shortened 1935). Only two of these prototypes are known to exist, one being located at the Musée de la Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne (MAS) in France and the other in a unnamed collection in the USA.

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    Émile Berthier, a mechanical engineer for the Bureau des Chemines de Fer Algériens (Bureau of Algerian Railways), who worked for one of the five subsidiary companies, La Compagnie Bône-Guelma, had two great passions in life: dirigible balloons and firearms. He proposed to modify the existing Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1886 'Lebel' with its massive solid receiver, two piece stock and tubular magazine system into a system based on the en-bloc packet/charger system patented by the Austro-Hungarian weapon designer Ferdinand Mannlicher to the Comité de L'Artillerie on June 10th. He was ignored, discouraged and rejected by the various commissions/committees from designing a new firearm system but in the end finally won his case to build a weapon for trials the next year.

    1888 - Under the direction of Monsieur Berthier, L'Atelier de Puteaux (APX) helped build a number of prototype weapons called the Lee-Mannlicher-Berthier or what now is called Berthier Boitier No.1 et No.1bis, which were to be tested at Mont Valérien in December of that year. A number of small problems were found with the en-bloc packet/chargers used during this testing, but in the end the weapon proved itself successful enough against the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 "Lebel", firing 26 rounds in 1 minute 10 seconds compared to the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 "Lebel" 21 rounds in 1 minute 34 seconds, which had impressed the various commissions/committees to proceed the next year with more testing. They recommended to him to develop two different carbine models, one for the cavalerie (cavalry) and another for the artillerie (artillery).

    1889 - Monsieur Berthier went on to develop the two different Berthier Boitier prototypes recommended by the commissions/committees, the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Essai No.2 et No.2bis and Carabine d'Cavalarie Essai No.3 et No.3bis. Both of these were 1005mm (39.5 inch) in overall length, had bent bolt handles and similar modified rear sights. No.2 featured a bolt handle which was positioned on the rear portion of the bolt and the upper barrel band was modified to use the standard bayonet in service the Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886. No.2bis was modified to have the locking lugs on the bolt head to be positioned “vertical”, 90 degrees, instead of the traditional manner of being “horizontal” which would help to eliminate the jams when chambering the cartridge from the en-bloc packet/charger. No.3 had its bolt handle positioned near the front of the bolt, had a protruding metal magazine, and had no provisions to mount a bayonet. No.3bis also had the same type arrangement for the locking lugs as No.2bis. Testing continued throughout the rest of the year at Mont Valérien.

    1890 - On the 19th of January the situation changed dramatically as France’s long time arc-enemy, Germany, adopted the Karabiner Modell 1888 with its fast loading en-bloc packet/charger system for its mounted troops and the French military quickly realized that they needed to get a new smokeless powder carbine for use by their various mounted units to counter this new German threat. On February 28th it was decided by the E.N.T. to drop the Carabine d'Essai Modèle 1887 and go with the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Essai No.2bis carbine for adoption. It was recommended to Monsieur Berthier to go from a 4 round en-bloc packet/charger to a 3 round en-bloc packet/charger and completely abandon the two piece stock for a simple one-piece type that had been a tradition for French regulation carbines. After a series of modifications during the first few weeks of March and by the 14th, the firearm was transformed into what was to become the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 (Carbine of Cavalry Model 1890) and was ready to under go trials.

    This firearm was officially adopted as per a Décision Ministérielle (Ministerial Decision) dated the 10th of December of 1890 which was latter called as the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 1ère Type (Carbine of Cavalry Model 1890 1st Type) by the French military to distinguish between the two different types of the same model. (See 1894 for details of the 2ème Type) These utilized a one piece stock which was stocked to within 44.45 mm (1.750 inch) of the muzzle, had an overall length of 945 mm (37.21 inch) with a 453 mm (17.83 inch) barrel and weighing 3000 g (6.61 pounds). It featured two barrel bands, an upper and lower of which the upper does not feature a straight ball-tipped stacking hook as seen on later type upper barrel bands for stacking arms together; a 482 mm (19 inch) clearing rod that was placed in a channel down the left side of the stock which was used to remove a stuck cartridge in the chamber and for stacking arms together; and lacks a top hand guard. The sling configuration is unique in that a rotating swivel mounted on the underside of the stock works in combination with a concentric ring mounted on the left side of the lower barrel band allowing for it to easily be slung over the back of the cavalryman. The carbine is loaded using the new 3-shot en-bloc packet/charger as this was based on a desire to avoid having a magazine extend below the bottom line of the stock creating any surfaces that might catch on the various equipment carried by mounted troops and not to infringe on Ferdinand Mannlicher patents.
    These firearms were not designed to accept a bayonet, since all of the mounted units of the French Army were issued lances, sabers or swords as their primary arms. These were originally only issued to the Metropolitan Cavalerie Légère Française (French Light Cavalry Regiments) which was composed of (16) Régiments de Dragons (Regiments of Dragoons), (33) Régiments de Hussards (Regiment of Hussars), (24) Régiments de Chasseurs à Cheval (Regiments of Light Cavalry of Horse) and in 1905 they issued to the Escadrons du Train des Équipages Militaires (Military Supply Transport Squadrons).

    Production numbers are sketchy but it is estimated that only about 160,000 to 200,000 of these firearms were made from either November or December of 1890 to either 1903 or 1904 at both Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne (MAS) and Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC). Here is a little of what we do know about the production of these ... According to the book 'Historique de la Manufacture d'Armes de Saint Étienne' by Raymond Dubessy, production was to start in November as per a Ministerial Decree (Décret Ministériel) put out by the Ministry of War (Ministre de La Guerre) dated the 7th of November of 1890 but production could have been delayed till December of that year, details are just missing. It is believed that there were approximately about 156,000 of these carbines that were made from either November or December of 1890 to December of 1892 of which Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault made about 50,000 (A1 to A50000) and Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne made about 106,000 (F1 to G6000). Some of these were made in 1890, we just do not know how many were as currently the only reported 1890 dated one was made by MAS (F300X) with proof date of December. Here is where things get tough to figure out about the production numbers, we know that from 1893 to 1900 none of these firearms were made, however an order was placed for another 4,000 in 1900 that were to be manufactured from 1900 to either 1903 or 1904 by both manufacturers but as of right now the highest number we have seen from MAS is G7716 which was made in 1903 and from MAC is A502XX with an unknown date, there could have been more made but just have not surfaced at this time. In 1905 another order of 40,000 was placed but it is not known if this order was every accomplished or not.
    So here is what we do know based on the numbers we have seen ...
    MAC NUMBERS:
    1890 / 1891: 40,000 (A1 to A40000)
    1892: 10,000 (A40001 to A50000)
    1893 to 1900: None
    1900 to 1903 / 1904: Unknown (A50001 to A502XX, This the highest one seen)

    MAS NUMBERS:
    1890 / 1891: 94,000 (F1 to F94000)
    1892: 12,000 (F94001 to G6000)
    1893 to 1900: None
    1900 to 1903 / 1904: Unknown (G6001 to G7716, This the highest one seen)

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    There were two other carbines adopted in 1890 and 1891, the Carabine de Cuirassier Modèle 1890 and Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890:

    The Carabine de Cuirassier Modèle 1890 (Carbine of Cuirassier Model 1890) was officially adopted as per a Décision Ministérielle (Ministerial Decision) dated the 10th of December of 1890. We at this time just do not know when production of these was started but it assumed that they started in either November or December of 1890, as of current date the only reported 1890 is A60XX with proof date of (12) December. It is believed that there were approximately about 20,000 of these carbines made by only by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault. (A1 to A20000).
    This model had the same exact barrel length as the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 but was slightly longer in overall length, 952 mm (37.48 inch) and weighed less, 2980 g (6.57 pounds). These were only issued to the Metropolitan French Heavy Cavalry Regiments (Cavalerie Lourde Française) which was composed of (12) Régiments de Cuirassiers à Cheval (Cuirassiers of Horse).
    This particular model also differed from the regulation Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 as it featured a combless stock and hard leather buttplate, that were all made by Établissement Demange et Fils which was located at Boulevard Voltaire à Paris, which was secured to butt by three horizontal brass screws . This leather buttplate was utilized as it more suitable than the standard steel butt plate, which would have slipped off the tapered Model 1855 breast plate armor (Cuirasse Modèle 1855) during recoil and possibly damaging the plate. The combless stock was adopted as these troopers wore the Model 1874 helmet (Casque Cuirassier Modèle 1874) which had metal chinstrap scales riveted on the leather band and when worn down over the chin would have made it difficult to get a proper cheek weld on the stock when firing, the removal of the comb allowed them to get this proper cheek weld.
    These carbines were not slung over the backs of the troopers while mounted but instead were carried in a full leather scabbard on the rear, right side of the saddle which were called as the Étui de Carabine de Cuirassier, so as we learned before with the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 the sling configuration did not have to be modified for better carry over the shoulder of the cavalry troopers. These carbines were also not designed to accept a bayonet, since all Cuirassier troopers primary arm was their saber. These models are very rare to encounter in their original configuration as in 1916 many of these were converted to the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 configuration (see 1916 for more details).

    MAC NUMBERS:
    1890 / 1891: 20,000 (A1 to A20000)
    Documented known serial numbers: A 60XX : barrel proof in December 1890, stock cartouche of June 1891; A 8981 : barrel proof unknown, no visible stock cartouche ... (1890 stamped); A 116XX : barrel proof in July 1891, no visible stock cartouche; A 16XXX : barrel 1891; A 175XX : barrel proof in October 1891, no visible stock cartouche; A 178XX : barrel proof in October 1891, no visible stock cartouche; A 190XX : barrel proof unknown, stock cartouche of November 1891; A 19084 : barrel proof unknown, stock cartouche of November 1891; A 19089 : barrel proof in October 1891, stock cartouche of November 1891 ... (1890M stamped); A 19835 : barrel proof in November 1891, stock cartouche of November 1891 ... (1890M stamped)

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    It is not known when exactly the Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890 was officially adopted for service but a Ministerial Telegram (Dépêche Ministérielle) dated the 25th of November, 1891 designates a new carbine of 8mm to use this name but it is not until another Ministerial Telegram (Dépêche Ministérielle) from the l'Inspecteur Permanent des Manufactures d'Armes to the Director at MAS dated the 13th of January, 1892 seems to tell him that the carbine that had been developed and had gone through recent trials with the Légions de Gendarmerie de Seine-et-Oise and the Garde Républicaine was to be adopted without any modifications which will called as the Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890.
    As the Gendarmerie is in principle a national military force charged with police duties and in a time of war were placed under the direct control of the military, the need to provide them with a special type of carbine utilizing a bayonet became essential. This carbine utilized the same one piece stock as the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 but was not stocked up to near the muzzle as it was to have an addition of a bayonet bar for the bayonet. What they came up with was to set back the front portion of the stock, 114 mm (4.48 inch) from the muzzle, adding a bayonet bar, barrel band spring, barrel band spring screw and screw tube to the front of it. The barrel band spring screw had to be reduced to 20,9 mm (.822 inch) and the tube to 13,5 mm (.531 inch). The bayonet developed for this carbine was almost a direct copy of the Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 as was used on the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1886 'Lebel' but utilized a different type of locking mechanism that was located in the pommel which connected with the bayonet bar in the front of the firearm. It also featured a groove that extends down the left side of the bayonet grip to allow clearance for the shorter clearing rod, 457 mm (18 inch), brass-tipped clearing rod to fit in while attached. These bayonets were to be called as the Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1890.
    Specifications: Overall Length: 25.20 in (640 mm), Blade length: 20.47 in (520 mm), Weight: .88 lb (400 g), Scabbard Length: 20.87 in (530 mm), Scabbard Weight: .44 lb (200 g)
    These utilized the same type of sling arrangement as found on the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 1ère Type, a rotating type swivel on the bottom of the stock and concentric ring mounted lower barrel band. These had the same overall length and barrel length of the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 but weighed 100 grams more (3100 g / 6.83 pounds). These were to be issued to the French Gendarmerie units, such as the Gendarms à Cheval (Military Police of Horse), Gendarms à Pied (Military Police of Foot) and Garde Républicaine (Republican Guard).

    At this time production numbers of these is quite confusing as the figures vary with texts of the researcher.
    According to the book 'La Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault: 1819-1968' by Claude Lombard, the Ministry of War (Ministre de La Guerre) put out a Ministerial Decree (Décret Ministériel), date unknown, to have both Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault and Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne each making 20,000 for a total of 40,000 of these carbines (A 1 to A20000 and F1 to F20000). He also stated that that Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault made an additional 16,640 in either February or September of 1893 for a total made of 36,640 but these were in fact made specifically as Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892's. According to him these were marked as Mle.1892 on the receiver but it is unknown if these were marked as Mle.1890 or Mle.1892. Could these have also used the different types of bayonets that the Gendarmes or Artillery troops utilized made the difference in the nomenclature of the firearm, we just do not know at this time, more research or documentation needs to found to help solve this. Various collectors think that only 20,000 of these were made specifically as Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890's and have tried to determine the numbers made by MAC for each year but just right now it is guessing. Here is what we believe, serial numbers below A7000 could have been made from late 1891 or very early 1892 as lowest documented A45XX shows this to be correct. A7000 to A15000 show test proof months of March to June of 1892; A15000 to A18831 show test proof months in 1892; A18831 to A20000 might have 1892 or 1893 test proof months. Now to make it even more frustrating A13800 has a receiver marked Mle.1890 and shows a test proof month of February of 1893, why such a late date, unknown. What about the other 16,640 that were made, it is believed that these were converted as Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892's and that the serial numbers were integrated into its unique serial numbering system.

    Now once again to make things confusing, in the book 'Historique de la Manufacture d'Armes de Saint Étienne' by Raymond Dubessy, he states that Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne made 44,000 of these carbines but only he only found that 30,839 were actually made as Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890. There is also reference to an additional 13,161 that were made in 1892 without bayonets (why ? unknown), which would support MAS numbers (30839 + 13,161 = 44,000) but these made specifically as Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892's, but again it unknown if these were marked as Mle.1890 or Mle.1892. Again, could these have also used the different types of bayonets that the Gendarmes or Artillery troops utilized made the difference in the nomenclature of the firearm, we just do not know at this time, more research or documentation needs to found to help solve this. Various collectors think that he was correct in that only 30,839 (F1 to F30839) of these carbines were made specifically as Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890's. It is unknown when the first of these were made there but it could have been from very late 1891 or in 1892. We do know that F9000 and above have test proof months in 1892. Again, we just right now can not give a clear example of how many were made as the records are missing, lost, destroyed or misplaced on this all.

    So lets just assume from what we have seen above and until other documentation shows up in the future to show otherwise, Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault made 20,000 and Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne made 30,839 of these specific carbines.

    1892 - As French military doctrine required the Artillery, Engineers and Machine Gun Troops to work in close concert with the both the Infantry and Cavalry, they would be in need of secondary type firearm to protect themselves at close quarters which did not require a full sized rifle, so it was decided to equip these various types of regiments and units with a short type carbine that could easily be slung over the shoulders while they worked. As the Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890 had been developed for usage with a bayonet, it naturally had been decided to simply adopt this carbine for usage with these units but changing the name and year of it to be called as the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 (Musketoon of Artillery Model 1892) which was formally adopted into service as per a Décision Ministérielle (Ministerial Decision) dated the 30th of August, 1892. These firearms were to be mainly issued to the Régiments de Artillerie (Regiments of Artillery), Régiments du Génie (Regiment of Engineers), Régiments du Train (Regiments of Transportation), Troupes de Mitrailleurs (Machine Gun Troops) and to the Marine Nationale Fusiliers Marins (French National Navy Naval Fusiliers) which only acquired about 2,000 of these for their usage. These were also originally issued to the Tirailleurs Indochinois but it was found that these had to severe of a recoil for them to handle that a specialized rifle had to be developed for them which came in 1902 in the form of the Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902 (see 1902 for more information)

    The only difference between the Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890 and Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 in other than the left side of the receiver markings was the bayonet that they used, the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 utilized a sword type bayonet, which was designed so that it could be used to chop wood, clearing brush, open ammunition crates, etc. in the performance of the soldiers duties. This new bayonet was to be called as the Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892 (Saber Bayonet Model 1892) of which there were three different variations which underwent a number of changes during their time in service and are listed below.
    The Premier (1ère) Type (First (1st) Type) was the original version which featured a muzzle ring that did not extend over the grips that were made of a hard black vulcanized rubber grips called fibre noir that were affixed by two small pins. These type of grips are often called as 'bakelite' in collecting circles.
    In 1905, wood (bois) was to be used for the grips as it was found that the bakelite grips were easily broken during service as they aged but for some reason this never got completely done. The grips were now to be affixed by much fatter pins and rivets.
    The Deuxième (2ème) Type (Second (2nd) Type) As it was found that the bayonet was not secured on the front sight very tightly, so in 1912 they modified the bayonet muzzle ring to extend 1/8 of an inch over the back of the grips to allow it to be better locked on the barrel and front sight. This modified version was called as the Deuxième (2ème) Type (Second (2nd) Type) and both bakelite and wood grips were used with this variation.
    The Troisième (3ème) Type) (Third (3rd) Type) is easily distinguishable by the removal of the first third of the quillion during the manufacturing process, not cut-off as it is often written in books or on the internet. It is not know when exactly this process was done as some sources say it was done in January 1915 and others say it was late September 1918. It is believed that the partial removal of the quillion was done, for 'trench' warfare and ease of manufacturing steps. In 1915 wood grips were exclusively used and any of the bakelite grips that were brought in for repairs were to replaced.
    Specifications: Overall Length: 21.25 in (540 mm); Blade length: 15.43 in (392 mm); Weight: .94 lb (425 g); Scabbard Length: 16.25 in (412 mm); Scabbard Weight: .47 lb (215 g)

    There were approximately only about 700,000 of the musketoons made by both Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault which made 380,000 from August 30, 1892 to April or October of 1917 (Prefix letters A, B, D, and E (E80000), C does not seemed to be used for some unknown reason) and Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne which made 301,700 from August 30, 1892 to March of 1915 (prefix letters F, G, H and J (J17XX)).

    1894 - It was found that the sling due to its rotating type swivel located at the bottom of the stock and concentric ring mounted on the left side of the lower barrel band of the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 1ère Type was not suited for carrying while mounted as it tore into the uniform and the shoulders of the trooper, therefore it was decided by a Ministerial Decree (Décret Ministériel) put out by the Ministry of War (Ministre de La Guerre) on the 30th of May 1894 to modify the firearm to carry it in a better position while on the back of the cavalry trooper. The rotating sling swivel mounted on the underside of the stock was removed, filled in and replaced with a 6 cm (2.36 inch) steel sling bar placed over an inletted notch in the left side of the stock. The concentric ring was replaced with a straight type retention bar which resulted in the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 2ème Type (Carbine of Cavalry Model 1890 2nd Type) being adopted for service on the 25th of March 1895. In 1909 another Ministerial Decree was written to modify the 1st Type models that had not been modified to this new system, thus making these very rare to acquire in its original 1st Type configuration.

    1901 - In January of 1898 a new service cartridge was adopted for service, developed by Artillery Major Désaleux, called Cartouche Modèle 1886 à Balle D, commonly called Balle D, which featured a solid lathe turned brass, spitzer, boat-tailed bullet, which was generalized for service in 1901. As this cartridge started to replace the older Cartouche à Balle Ordinaire Modèle 1886 M , the rear sights of the Berthiers already in service had to be modified for the new rounds trajectory. The quickest and simplest method was to grind down the right ladder steps on the rear sight to compensate for this new trajectory instead of having to replace them with a completely new rear sight. The rear sight might sometimes be marked on the base with a "D" and/or the receivers sometimes also be might be marked with "M.D." (Modification Désaleux) after the weapons nomenclature indicating that they undergone this new change.

    1902 - As per a Décision Ministérielle (Ministerial Decision) dated the 24th of December 1902 the half cock notch on the cocking piece which had been intended to be used as a rudimentary safety was no longer made as it was determined that this feature was now useless under the pretext that it did not allowed the bolt to be maneuvered quickly and with its removal it allowed the rifle to be cycled at a faster rate.

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    A Ministerial Decree (Décret Ministériel) put out by the Minisrty of War (Ministre de La Guerre) dated the 10th of January 1902 called for a modification of a unique curved stacking hook to be added to the upper barrel band of the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 which was called as the Embouchoir Modèle 1902, to allow these firearms to be stacked for a long period in the field by the 'Batteries Alpines' de Régiments de Artillerie de Montagne ('Alpine Batteries' of Regiments of Mountain Artillery). The firearms this new upper barrel band was used with were regular production Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892's which just featured this barrel band and were not specially built for this modification. It is estimated that about only 1,200 to 1,500 of these firearms utilized this new barrel band.
    NOTE: Musketoons that have this barrel applied to them are not called as the Model 1892/1902 Colonial Carbine, or any other designation or name, they were just simply a Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 with the addition of this barrel band.

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    When the various Vietnamese/Cambodian troops called Tirailleurs Indochinois (Annamites, Tonkinois, Cambodgiens ) in Indochina were issued the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 and it was found that it had too much recoil for them, the Gouverneur de l'Indochine asked the Ministre de La Guerre in 1901, after a visit to Paris, to develop a special rifle for them. The Comité de L'Artillerie looked into the problem and determined that as the Berthier was already in production as a carbine, it would be a rather simple task to produce a scaled-down rifle that would be perfect for the smaller stature colonial troops in Indochina.
    The weapon produced for them was the Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902 which was adopted for service on May 22,1902, was 1,125m (44 1/16") in overall length with a 0,635m (25.0 inch) barrel, weighing 3,600 kg (7.93 pounds). The upper barrel band had a unique curved stacking hook added, a feature not found on any Berthier up until then, which was used for interlocking a small groups of rifles in an upright position like the frame of a teepee when arms were to be stacked for a period in the field.
    All previous made Berthiers were stacked by interlocking the clearing rod. Like the rest of the Berthiers in service it lacked a top hand guard, had a long brass-tipped clearing rod mounted down the left side of the forearm and used 3-shot en-bloc packet/chargers. The most important feature that this rifle was to have was the addition of a recoil lug to the rear of the receiver to help prevent breakages and cracks in the stock near the wrist. This problem was found to be chronic, over 60%, in all the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 that were in service in Indochina due to the extreme high humidity conditions encountered there. This problem was later addressed in 1909 for all earlier produced weapons already in service. The bayonet used with this rifle was the Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1902 which was identical in design to the Gendarmerie bayonet and are in fact interchangeable.
    All of these rifles were manufactured solely by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC) for the basic price of 51,58F (51 Francs/58 centimes) and it is believed that possibly only 32,500 were made (see below for numbers). These were delivered to Indochina in zinc-lined cases of 20 rifles in the following numbers:
    1902: Décret Ministériel N° 15649 dated 05/22/1902: 10,000 weapons ordered (A1 - A10000), sold to Indochina for a price of 56 francs, the contract was finished in 1903, it was sent and delivered to Tonkin.
    1904: Décret Ministériel N° 6059/2/3 dated 02/21/1904: 4,500 weapons ordered (A10001 - A14500), sold to Indochina for a price of 63 francs, the contract was finished in December 1904, it was sent and delivered to Tonkin. 2,500 went to La Direction d'Artillerie de Saigon and 2,000 to La Direction d'Artillerie de Hanoi.
    1906: Décret Ministériel N° 13629/2/3 dated 04/11/1906: 10,000 weapons ordered, 6,000 planed for in 1906 and 4,000 planed for in 1907. These were sold to Établissement Schneider et Cie at the price of 72,15 francs/centimes each for sales to Persia (Iran). These weapons are numbered from 1 to 10,000 and do not not have a letter prefix before the serial number. This order was fufilled by August 1907, the weapons were then transferred to Établissement Schneider et Cie in March 1908 for delivery. Due to some administrative problems with the Russian Custom Officials, as these were going by via rail through their territory, they finally arrived in Persia in April of 1908. These featured rear sights calibrated for Cartouche à Balle Ordinaire Modèle 1886 M.
    1906: Décret Ministerial N° unknown dated 7/16/1906: 3,000 weapons ordered (A14501 - A17500) and 1907: Décret Ministériel N° 26026/2/3 dated 05/13/1907: 200 weapons ordered (A17501 - A17700), sent to Indochina for a price of 75,67 francs/centimes, both of these were sent and delivered to Tonkin in December of 1907.
    NOTE: weapons A154XX which has a barrel date of 7/1907 and A153XX a barrel date of 8/1907 and as these weapons were the first to receive the up-graded rear sights for Cartouche Modèle 1886 à Balle D this could explain the delay of the 1906 dated Décret Ministerial to 1907.
    These should have been theoretically marked with the ‘M.D.’ (Modification Désaleux) after the weapons nomenclature indicating that they undergone this new change but were not marked with it.
    1907: Décret Ministériel N° 43508/2/3 dated 12/05/1907: 1,000 ordered (A17701 - A18700) and sent for forces in Annam.
    1910: Décret Ministériel N° 8655/2/3 dated 02/23/1910: 1,300 ordered (A18701 - A20000) and sent to the forces in Annam.
    1911: Décret Ministériel N° 7535/2/3 dated 02/14/1911: 2,500 ordered (A20001 - A22500) and sent for the forces in Annam.
    NOTE: weapons A188XX which has a barrel date of 1908 with a 1910 reception date of 1910 and A208XX a barrel date of 1911 is marked with ‘M.D.’ after the weapons nomenclature.
    1912: Unknown amount made or ordered (A22500 - A22720 highest serial number seen for far)
    1914: An order was placed for 300 weapons but none were made due to the outbreak of The Great War in August of that year.

    1908 - With the successful adoption of the Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902 for its troops in Indochina, the French military decided to replace the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 "Lebel" that were in service with the French West, Central and East African colonies, particularly Senegal, all of whom were tall in stature, with a full-scale rifle. In 1904 l’Inspection Permanente des Fabrications d’Artillerie along with Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault got together with the S.T.A to develop this new rifle.
    What they came up with was the Fusil de Tirailleur Sénégalais Modèle 1907 as it was named in Décret Ministerial 34117/2/3 dated August 9, 1907 but in 1908 it was then decided to widen the issuance of the weapon to other colonial troops, except those in Indochina, and Décret Ministerial 22859/2/3 of June 6, 1908 re-named the rifle to Fusil Colonial Modèle 1907 which was adopted for service on June 19,1908. With the introduction of this rifle the Berthier finally came of age as a full-length infantry rifle. This rifle had an overall length of 1,305m (51 3/16") with a 0,800m (31 1/2") barrel and weighing 3,800kg (8.37 pounds). Again like all previous Berthiers it lacked a top hand guard, used the 3-shot en-bloc packet/charger, had the curved stacking hook on the upper barrel band but one feature that was completely eliminated was the brass-tipped clearing rod. The barrel of this weapon was of the same exact barrel as used on the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 "Lebel" which featured the same front and rear sights and muzzle diameter. As this weapon did not use the same upper barrel band as found on the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 "Lebel" but followed the lines of the previous Berthier bayonet attachment, a new bayonet had to be developed to be used for this weapon which was to be called the Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1907.
    Once again all there rifles were built solely by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC). This model was plagued with a number of faults and breakage of parts due to the various weather conditions this rifle encountered such as high humidity and desert conditions mixed together, which caused a number of high ranking officers and officials to cease issuing them until the problem could be resolved, which never happened though. This problem was finally solved sometime in 1914/1915 utilizing better metallurgy and heat treatment procedures.
    It is believed that only less than 25,000 of these weapons were made (see below for numbers). The only production numbers know are as follows:
    1907: From May 5, 1907 which terminated in 1908: 12,500 weapons made (A1 - A12500), 10,000 rifles were dispatched to Afrique Occidentale Française (AOF) and 2,500 to the Congo which was part of Afrique Équatoriale Française (AEF).
    1908: 10 weapons made (A12501 - A12510), these were held in storage for eventual distribution to wherever needed.
    1909: 818 weapons made (A12511 - A13328), 500 went to the Congo, 263 to the Côte d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast), 15 held in storage for eventual distribution to wherever needed, 40 for other unknown destinations.
    1910: 2,416 weapons made (A13329 - A15744), unknown where these were sent to.
    NOTE: These weapons were the first to receive the up-graded rear sights for Cartouche Modèle 1886 à Balle D and should have been theoretically marked with the ‘M.D.’ (Modification Désaleux) after the weapons nomenclature indicating that they undergone this new change but were not marked with it.
    1911: 1,000 weapons made (A15745 - A16744), these were held in reserve.
    1912: 1,000 weapons made (A16745 - A17744), the order was terminated in 1913. 240 delivered to Dahomey, 200 to Guinée, and 158 to the AEF.
    1913: 6,103 weapons made (A17745 - A23847), unknown where these were sent to.
    NOTE: These are marked with ‘M.D.’ after the weapons nomenclature.
    1914: An order was placed for 2,400 weapons but due to the outbreak of The Great War in August only 722 were completed (A 23848 - A 24569). The rest of the 1,678 weapons were made after the war had started but were converted to use an upper barrel band that had a semi-circular base and adding a one piece bayonet guide under the barrel allowed the standard Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886to be utilized, this modification was to become the basis for the latter produced Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915.
    NOTE: Some of these weapons utilized the standard serial number range found after A24569 but it is not known to what number they went to as many of the remaining ones started with a new serial number range of it own with adoption of the produced Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 on February 26, 1915. There is also possibility that the 722 weapons were converted to the 1915 pattern in January of 1916, the records are very sketchy on these details though.

    1909 - During this year sometime a decision was made to add a recoil lug to the rear of the receiver of all new made carabines and mousquetons to help prevent the wrist breakages in the stock, which was dovetailed to fit this modification.

    1910 - On May 22 the Ministre de la Guerre (Ministry of War) wanted to build and test a carbine for the sixteen Dragoon Regiments (Régiments de Dragons) and under the guidance of the Section Technique de l'Artillerie (S.T.A.) and Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault, 100 Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890's were converted for experimentation, which were to be called the Carabine de Dragons Modèle 1890.
    These carbines had two very unique features never seen before on any Berthier's up to this date, a 295 mm (11.61 inch) reversible triangular bayonet with a hooked quillion and full length hand guard running the top of the barrel from the front of the receiver to a specially made upper barrel band.
    The bayonet system was unique in that it was the first French design of having a bayonet meant to stay with the carbine at all times. The bayonet was of a socket type that had a mortise that was to be slipped over the barrel right up to the upper barrel band and was held in place by the front sight base. It had a knurled collar that was located halfway between the two ends. When the bayonet was not to be used, it was reversed, re-slipped back on the barrel and went inside a steel tube in the front of the stock. It was latched and unlatched by means of a trigger type catch mounted underneath the special bayonet housing which was part of the upper barrel band that was secured to the stock by a single screw that went from the left to right. As with all Berthier carbines previously adopted, a brass-tipped clearing rod was mounted down the left side of the forearm. In December after extensively converting all of these carbines, Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault submitted them to l’Atelier Central for trials in January of 1911. After a series of delays due to circumstances beyond their control they were finally issued to the 16ème Régiment de Dragons stationed at Riems in November of 1911 for service testing at both Camp de Châlons and Camp de Versailles. After these initial tests it was found that these carbines needed some additional modifications and were returned back to Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault. On July 26, 1912 they were returned back for more extensive field testing. In January of 1914, approximately another 400 more of these weapons were built for service testing but as fate would have it the project was finally terminated in August of 1914 due to start of The Great War. This system was to be re-introduced in the 1928-1934 trials for what would become the Fusil Modèle 1936. Most of these weapons were either scrapped or re-built into other configurations during the war.

    1914-1918 - La Grande Guerre - During The Great War, the French military did what they had to do to make complete weapons especially after the Battle of Verdun known as the "meat grinder" during the first half of 1916, which chewed up men, animals and material at an unprecedented pace. The ongoing struggle waged by French Ordnance to arm the troops at the front, along with each year's new draft of young men, resulted in large-scale small arms salvage operations, where teams of scroungers picked up all of these weapons, all along the various fronts and were returned to the nearest facility for re-build and re-issue. The French arsenals put together rifles and carbines with whatever parts were on hand, be it carbine or rifle, from these battlefield-recovered weapons resulting in, rifles found with carbine bolts, carbines with rifle bolts and more, especially when it comes to stocks and stock furniture, you name it!. They did not stand on ceremony, tossing all of the pre-war fussiness out the window and re-built them as fast as possible into any functional model that they could. The easiest way to determine the number of potential wartime variations is to take a stack of Berthier components from the various models and see how many different ways you could possibly put them together, you will be surprised at what you could make!.
    All this frequent re-building using parts from different models resulted in one of the more interesting aspects of collecting WWI-issue Berthier rifles and carbines, “What do I really have ?”, just remember this, that what ever configuration the weapon is at the present state is now is the nomenclature of this particular weapon.
    So the next time you stumble across a Berthier at a gun shop, in the rack at a gun show, at the range, or on the internet, don't be surprised if it has one or more features from several different models.

    1915 - As the war went into its second year with the Western Front having one solid line of massive trenches from the coast in Belgium to the Alps Mountain Range on the Swiss border and the cavalry trooper was no longer required to be on horseback but instead were manning the trenches as Infantrymen, the various cavalry carbines began to be converted to the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 configuration. This conversion consisted of shortening the forend of the stock and fitting them with a bayonet lug and in the case of the Carabine de Cuirassiers Modèle 1890, the stocks were replaced with the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 pattern combed stocks but still retaining the leather butt plates.
    As France had suffered a large amounts of staggering defeats, with massive losses of men and material at the outbreak of the war during the crushing defeat of "Plan 17" and the "Battle of the Frontiers", which brought the Germans within striking distance of Paris, the French victory at the "1st Battle of the Marne", which staved off a potential German victory, nearly brought the country to its knees. French forces were desperately short of weapons to equip the replacements for the tens of thousands of casualties suffered before the end of 1914, one answer, as determined by the Ministre de La Guerre in November of 1914, was to increase production of the Berthier system and tasked Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC) to find a solution. The easiest solution MAC found was to slightly alter the Fusil de Tirailleur Sénégalais Modèle 1907, as it could be pushed into mass production with an absolute minimal number of changes into a new model full-length rifle (see 1907 above). This new model was to be called the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915, which was adopted for service on February 26,1915. This weapon was almost identical with the following exceptions: The upper barrel band was redesigned with a semi-circular base, with a straight ball-tipped stacking hook, and the front sight was changed from a blade type to a square block with a small shallow V groove in it to allow for pin-pointing a target, the rear sight was modified to conform to this new pattern front sight. The very first production, 80,000, did have a bent bolt handle but in November it was determined that this should be changed to a beefed-up straight type bolt handle with a rounded bolt-knob for easier opening of the bolt in combat and all production after the 15th of December followed this recommendation. The production number for these rifles that are known are as follows: March: 200, May: 1,470, August: 46,000, October: 51,000, December: 54,000, the maximum number was obtained in July of 1916 with 101,511 and the final production numbers reached by the end of the war was a staggering 2,387,541. As the two National Armories producing Berthiers, Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault et Saint Étienne, could not keep pace with production demands set by the Ministre de La Guerre therefore it became necessary to contract with the various private manufacturing firms in France and elsewhere to help produce parts or whole complete weapons (See list below).

    A 24302, bent bolt, JH, J L MAC 1915, June 1915 cartouche, Mle.1907-1915 marking
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    A Ministerial Decree (Décret Ministériel) was put out by the Ministry of War (Ministre de La Guerre) dated the 25th of July 1915 to modify 135,000 Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890's to the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 configuration so that they could utilize the Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892. The modification consisted of setting back the front portion of the original wooden stock 114 mm (4.48 inch) from the muzzle, adding a bayonet bar, barrel band spring, barrel band spring screw and screw tube to the front of it. The barrel band spring screw had to be reduced to 20,9 mm (.822 inch) and the tube to 13,5 mm (.531 inch). The front barrel band was to be replaced with a smaller diameter type as was used on the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 with or without a stacking rod on it. Either a shorter clearing rod, 457 mm (18 inch) was utilized or the original was to be modified to this size. The latter straight type retention bar barrel bands were to retained with this modification. In April of 1916 1,000 of these completed and in July another 1,000 were completed. In July of 1917, Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault proposed, which was authorized, to replace any unusable stocks with ones made specifically for the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 but utilizing the steel sling bar placed over an inletted notch in the left side of the stock and using the concentric ring mounted lower barrel band.

    1916 - As the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 production was well underway, two French designers, Sous-Lieutenant Vibert and Contrôleur Généraux Principaux Chossé of Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC), started to work in March to up-date the Berthier to match the 5-round capacity of the German Infanterie Gewehr 1898, as it had been felt by the French soldier (poilu) that the 3-shot magazine was a handicap compared to the German Mauser which in a time of war could be detrimental to morale. After a series of tests, Sous-Lieutenant Vibert design was adopted on November 28 by Marshall of France, Commandant of the Armies, Joseph Jacques Césaire Joffre culminating in the both the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1916 and Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 Modifié 1916 and were to be called by the simple designation “M.16”.
    The rifle version was exactly identical to the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 already in production except that it had an addition of an extended 5-shot magazine and a top hand guard running from the front of the receiver to 3 inches beyond the lower barrel band. A new larger diameter barrel band was made to fit over the hand guard to keep it in place. Due to the extreme taper of the Cartouche Modèle 1886 à Balle D (am), the extended magazine is substantially thicker and deeper in the back and slopes forward toward the stock. As originally issued, the extended magazine retained the same rectangular opening in the floor plate to allow the expulsion of the empty en-bloc packet/charger upon reloading but in the mud. dirt and filth of the trenches, all of these designs proved susceptible to collecting foreign debris through the charger ejection port causing enumerable jams as the dirt and crud collected on the cartridges which was then carried into the action. The French lessened this problem somewhat by adding a spring-retained cover over the ejection port so that the soldier could either flip it open manually or just force a fresh en-bloc packet/charger into the magazine forcing the cover open to allow the charger to fall free from the magazine system. The cover could the either be closed by the soldier or simply left open if firing was continual. With this modification the follower assembly was lengthened to fit the extended magazine. With the new extra features added, the rifle weighed a hefty 4,195kg (9.25 pounds).

    Thes new type mousquetons were at first produced exactly like the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892's, without any hand guards which used a rear barrel band that was flush with the barrel and stock and having a rotating swivel mounted on the underside of the stock. The biggest difference was that these had the addition of the extended 5-shot magazine on the triggerguard / magazine assembly. These were made from the period of about October 1917 to about December of 1917 and these are what collectors refer to as Premier (1er) Type (First (1st) Type) models.
    The first usage of receiver's stamped with 'M16' began to be massively used in or about August of 1917, but they all had 3 - shot magazines and the original stock as described above. The first 5-shot magazines began to appear in October of 1917, but were melted together with the 3-shot which became rarer and rarer as these were made but still some could be seen on firearms made until January of 1918..
    Starting in December of 1917 it was decided to change this particular model to include a top hand guard with a rear barrel band that fit over the hand guard to keep it in place and replace the rotating swivel mounted on the underside of the stock with the inletted notch and sling bar which collectors refer to as the Deuxième (2ème) Type (Second (2nd) Type) models. With the extra features the carbine version weighed a hefty 3,100 kg (6.84 pounds). It is hard to know exactly when these 2nd Type stocks really began to be used which could have been possibly in November of 1917 but it seems that the 1st Type stocks seem to have disappeared from production by January of 1918.
    PLEASE NOTE: The two 'Type' designations were not official designations use by the French military but are just what French firearms collectors use to differentiate between the two different types of Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 Modifié 1916’s.

    These new rifles and carbines did not start to be distributed until very late 1917 and very few of these replaced the Berthiers already in service during The Great War, it was not until after the war that these were to become the standard issue.
    It was at this time that a straight ball-tipped stacking hook was added to upper band of the earlier produced Carabines and Mousquetons but in very limited numbers.

    Starting in July of 1916 many of the Carabine de Cuirassier Modèle 1890's were converted to the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 configuration as six of the twelve regiments became totally dismounted, re-named as Régiments de Cuirassiers à Pied (Cuirassiers of Foot), placed in the trenches to serve alongside the infantry but still retaining their cuirass and helmets. The biggest modification to these was that they replaced the combless stock with a regular combed stock with the added bayonet bar to the front of the firearm so that the Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892 could be utilized and a replacing the clearing rod with a shorter type used by that model. Some of these still retained the leather buttplate but most were replaced with the steel one.

    Starting in August and again in March 1917 Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC) developed “night sights” for the as-issued front and rear sights, the modification consisted of placing a small amount of fluorescent radium in a small 1/8" deep rounded hole on the front sight facing the shooter and two on the back of the rear sight leaf , one on each side of the sight notch.

    1920 - "A" sights were started to be adopted, these were squared U shaped rear sights which were meant to replace the earlier rear sight V shaped sights. These sights did not quite replace the older sights of the some of the weapons already in service. If these sights were used they were supposed to be marked with an "A" on base of the rear sight but in most cases this was never done for one reason or another.
    The majority of the Carabine de Cuirassiers were converted to the M16 configuration in November which included the adding of the hand guards, the inletted notch and sling bar and the 5 shot en-bloc packet/charger system.
    Starting in 1920 the French military had decided to make some new weapons for the forces in Indochina to help replace losses that had incurred during the war and expansion of the forces there, they decided to pattern them on the latest Berthier system that had been adopted in 1916, the M16 configuration. The new weapons were to be called the Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902 Modifié 1916, 15,250 of these were made in the following numbers:
    1920: 10,000 (A22501 - A32500); 1921: 2,200 (A32501 - A34700); 1924: 1,000 (A34701 - A35700); 1925: 1,000 (A35701 - A36700); 1926: 4,950 (A36701 - A41650); 1927: 3,000 (A41651 - A44650); 1928: 3,100 (A44651 - A47750).
    These “new” rifles are extremely rare to find as the majority of them never left Vietnam and have disappeared over time.

    1927 - This was the year when the majority of modifications took place, which happened to be the biggest and most extensive re-building program for the French military after The Great War. As had been done before they did what they had to do to make complete weapons, particularly to the M16 configuration using any parts that were on hand. The biggest difference this time for the Carabines and Mousquetons was the stock, in which clearing rod was removed and the clearing rod channel on the left side of the forearm was filled in with a wooden patch or they were completely re-stocked with a brand new stock without the clearing rod channel. In addition, a straight ball-tipped stacking hook was added to the left side of the top barrel band in which two small holes were drilled in the original top barrel band, the stacking hook was then pinned and brazed to the side of the upper barrel band.
    Sometime around 1930, they began to update the receivers of guns made before 1909 in which a recoil lug was added to the earlier receivers by a dovetail slot and pin, these were brazed or hard soldered to the receiver.
    This modification was done at Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC) and when completed they struck a proof mark across the joint. This work is almost totally perfect and reflects the peacetime efforts to rebuild at a leisurely pace.

    1932 - Modèle 1932N (Nouveau) was adopted for use, this new cartridge was designed for long range shooting in Heavy Machine Guns, such as the Mitrailleuse Hotchkiss Modèle 1914 and is much more powerful than the regular rifle ammo at the time Cartouche Modèle 1886 à Balle D (am). This cartridge has a much heavier bullet being pushed by a bigger powder charge resulting in a higher chamber pressure and firing this cartridge in a non-N modified weapon will most likely lead to catastrophic failure with injuries for both the shooter and any bystanders.
    This cartridge may chamber alright in a non-N modified weapon, which does not have a capital “ N” stamped on the top of the barrel and receiver at 12 O'clock position, and as stated it will generate much higher pressures than expected as the chambers neck (collet) is not sized up to allow the neck of the this cartridge to expand sufficiently to release the bullet as designed. A common misconception is the maximum diameter of the Modèle 1932N bullet which is exactly the same as the Cartouche Modèle 1886 à Balle D (am) bullet: 8,32mm (.3275 inch). The biggest difference between the solid brass lathe turned "D" bullet and the lead-core “N” bullet beside the weight is the location of their maximum diameter: For the “D” bullet, it on the fore part of the bullet, before the crimping groove and outside of the case neck. In the case of the “N” bullet, it is on the aft part of the bullet, after the crimping groove and inside the case neck. Due to the above, the enlarged neck of the Modèle 1932N cartridge had to have a maximum acceptable diameter of 9,02mm instead of 8,80mm for the previous Cartouche Modèle 1886 cartridges. The origin of the chamber re-throating was carried out on the various weapons in service that were still in French inventory as of 1934 with most being done during the period 1935 to 1939. One other interesting fact is the "N" label is a misinterpretation as there is no such item as a "N" cartridge in any of the French texts and if you wish to use the correct name for this cartridge, you would have to call it Cartouche Modèle 1932N.

    Between January and May of 1932, the French state weapon factories did a series of tests on steel pieces exposed to rain, salted rain, bathed in water, scratched by leather and so on to see what the effects of these would be. They then treated these surfaces with different kinds of treatments and two different type of phosphatations stood out as excellent possibilities to be used. The first was made by Parker Rust Proof Co, which was introduced in France in May of 1927 under the name of Parcosel, later called as parkérisation and other by a French firm named O.F.A.M. (No more detail about the name exists at this time) named as Ofamisation. A report was put out that said that more tests had to be done on real weapons with real use in the field to determine which would be best for use, in the end parkerization won out. Firearms that treated with these different treatments were marked as PK and OF on the left rear wall of the receiver and other parts. All the firearms stamped OF have barrel dates of 1933 and those marked as PK have barrel dates of 1934 to 1940. The PK marking was only used by any firearms made or re-built by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault.
    The black enamel paint finish used during the interwar period was called Parkolac or Parcolac which was also used by the National Railway Company, SNCF, on railroad steam engines and tenders.

    1934- After World War One had ended the French military realized that the Cartouche Modèle 1886 was not suited for light machine gun usage and in 1924 Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC) designed a new light machine gun and cartridge to replace them. What they came up with was a new modern light machine gun, the Fusil Mitrailleuse Modèle 1924 chambered in 7,5x58mm and in 1929 the cartridge case was shortened 4mm (7,5x54mm) to stop the number of accidental incidents between it and the German 7,92x57mm Mauser cartridge. This new cartridge was called Modèle 1929C à Balle Ordinaire, of which Balle C was meant to be used with rifles and Balle D for light machine guns.
    Starting in 1927 a small number, under 5,000, of Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 "Lebel" ‘s were converted to the new cartridge, now called the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 Modifié 1927, but due to number of extreme modifications and exorbitant expense required to convert it, the military decided that it would be much easier and less expensive to convert the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915.
    In 1932 both Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC) and Tulle (MAT) began work on this new conversion, to be called the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1934 or simply “M.34”, after a series of testing at both Camp de Châlons and Camp de Versailles it was adopted for service in early 1934.
    The weapon was to retain the typical Berthier lineage but was modified to the following major components: the barrel was replaced with a new 570mm (22.4 inch) chambered for the Modèle 1929C; both the front and rear sights were changed to reflect the change in the new caliber ballistics, the rear sight leaf and base was changed to a sliding ramp type which was graduated from 200 to 900 meters which used simplified correction sights to adjust azimuth/deflection which were marked on the back of the rear sight as D, N or G (Droite, Neutral or Gauche); the bolt head was replaced with one that was able to support the base of the rimless Modèle 1929C and a movable type ejector added; hand guards were added to the top of the barrel and with this a new lower barrel band and hand guard retaining ring near the receiver was used to hold it in place. The biggest modification however was the magazine system which was changed to a 5 round staggered-column box type with a spring loaded follower and solid floor plate. The top of the receiver was notched with charger guides so that the magazine could be loaded by the use of charger/stripper clips. This new rifle was 1,080m (42.51 inch) in overall length and weighed 3,700kg (8.15 pounds). There were two different variations made, one for the infantry and one for the cavalry. The difference between these two was the sling placement, the infantry model had the typical under mounted rear sling configuration and the cavalry model utilizing the sling bar and both had the concentric ring mounted on the left side of the weapon. Approximately 65,000 weapons were converted to this new system from 1934 to 1939 and 90% converted were the infantry version. The bayonet used on the two models was either the Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915 or Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892-1915 depending on the branch of service the rifle was used by. Most of these rifles were issued to the Fortress Infantry such as those who were stationed on the Maginot Line.
    41 of these are reported (see post below)

    1937 - A very small unknown amount of Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902 were converted at this time to Modèle 1929C to become the Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902 Modifié 1937. These are marked on the left side of the receiver “Type S.E - MAS 1902 M.37”, SE is for Service d'Etudes, which was a workshop of Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Etienne (MAS) dedicated to making prototype or very small runs of weapons for testing purpose before the approval of a model for full scale line fabrication. These are extremely rare as the majority of them were destroyed during World War Two.

    1948 Turkish Forestry Carbine ... Turkey is a widely forested country as almost 30% of the country is covered by woodlands, nearly all of it owned directly by the Turkish government. One of the most valuable trees in the forests, and a source of considerable income for the government, is Circassian Walnut. Poachers of these trees were becoming increasingly bold, and were a threat to the 5,000 the Turkish Forestry Rangers tasked with protecting these forests, so it was decided in the late 1940's, most likely 1948, to arm these men with firearms to both protect themselves and this valuable resource. The Turkish Ministry of Forest and Water Managemeni (Orman ve Su İşleri Bakanlığı) looked for a simple firearm to arm these rangers with and came up with a unique solution, a rebuilt Berthier. At the time, the Turkish government had tens of thousands of these firearms on hand which came from many different sources such as ones they had captured during The Great War (WWI), the Turkish War of Independence (1919-1923), had intercepted during WWII from Vichy forces in Syria and Lebanon either from trains passing through their territory on route to Iraq or interned Vichy French Forces fleeing the British and their Allies during Operation Exporter in 1941 or in some cases were received as gifts from the Germans over the years and literally millions of rounds of ammunition. The reason to utilize these had several distinct advantages for usage by the Forestry Service. These were very rugged, as these men were and still remain a group that mostly operates on horseback and could be easily slung over the back while on patrol. These were not able to challenge the real military if they fell into any revolutionary rebel hands and the 8x50R nm cartridge that it fired was rare in civilian hands and not commonly available on the black market. With no ready source of ammunition even if the rifle fell into the wrong hands it was unlikely it would be very useful. A final factor was that the rifle was very distinctive in profile and a stolen Berthier would cause attention to the authorities the way other weapons would not have.

    As they mostly had alot of rifles on hand, mostly Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 and Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1916's and wanted the rangers to carry a carbine so they had to heavily modify these rifles to a carbine type configuration.
    They started out by shortening the barrel about 228.60 mm (9 inches) which gave it a length of 533 mm (21 inches) long and recrowned the muzzle; installed a Mauser front sight and front sight base; cut the front portion of stock to the new length of the barrel; removed the rear sight base and component's, re-graduated the steps on the rear sight base, added graduation markings on the top of the rear sight leaf and cut in notches in the slider so that the numbers on the top of the rear sight leaf could be read easily; installed a upper hand guard retainer sleeve or also refered to as a barrel shroud right up against where the barrel meets the receiver; replaced the rear sight about 12.7 mm (1/2 inch) from the front of the barrel shroud; had to machine out new grooves for rear sight base and the barrel shroud in the stock; re-worked the front of the stock so that a Mauser Model 1905 Carbine Nose Cap and band retainer spring could be utilized; re-shaped the middle of stock for use of Mauser Model 1905 barrel band and band retainer spring; made a new handguard; changed out the magazine system if they were of the 5 shot variety so that they were of the 3 shot type; Turn down the bolt handle by about 45 degrees and finally reblueing and sometimes refinishing the stock as needed.

    It is believed that approximately 8,000 to 10,000 of these firearms were modified by the Turkish Military Factories Administration which was called Askari Fabrikalar Ankara (ASFA), which was based in the capital city of Ankara. These are marked on the top of the receiver with T.C. for Türkiye Cumhuriyeti (Turkish Republic), Orman for Turkish word Forest and 1948 for the year that this was done. As they had made these carbines out of many different firearms, parts were not matched to one another but a serial number unique to these was placed on the left side of the receiver and bolt.

    Berthier Boitiers
    All of these carbines are on display at the Musée de la MAS in France

    Berthier Boitier No1 bis


    Mousqueton d'Artillerie Essais No2 bis


    Carabine d'Cavalarie Essais No3 bis



    TOP: Mousqueton d'Artillerie Essais No2 bis
    BOTTOM: Carabine d'Cavalarie Essais No3 bis


    © This article is copyrighted. Please do not reproduce this article in whole or part, in any form, without obtaining my written permission
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 05-26-2016 at 02:46 AM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

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    Different Type of Berthier Chargers

    All chargers were made from folded steel (acier plié)

    Chargeurs Modèle 1890
    Le chargeur est un petit récipient en tôle mince, de la contenance de trois cartouches. On y remarque: les deux côtés, leurs arrondis qui maintiennent les cartouches, les nervures postérieures, qui forment le logement du bourrelet des cartouches, les nervures antérieures, qui empêchent la cartouche du milieu de ballotter latéralement, les deux évidements pour aliéger le chargeur; le fond, son talon pour le crochet de chargeur. Le chargeur est symétrique par rapport à la cartouche du milieu et peut, par suite, être mis en place indifféremment dans les deux sens. Le chargeur est identique au chargeur des armes courtes Modèle 1890 et Modèle 1892.

    Chargeur de Carabine et de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 du Premier (1ère) Type
    1st Type Charger for the Carbine and Cavalry Model 1890
    These do not have a notch in the base, they were produced in a dark black-bluing (bronzé noir) or were coated with gray zinc (zingué gris)





    Chargeur Modèle 1890 du Deuxième (2ème) Type
    2nd Type Model 1890 Charger
    These have a notch in the base, they were produced in a dark black-bluing (bronzé noir), black phosphate (phosphaté noir), coated with gray zinc (zingué gris) or left in the white






    Chargeurs Modèle 1916
    Le chargeur est en tôle mince comme celui à trois cartouches. On y distingue: les faces, les nervures, les évidements, le fond et les deux talons. Il est symétrique par rapport à la cartouche du milieu, les deux talons permettent de le mettre en place en introduisant indifféremment l'un ou l'autre côté dans la boîte de culasse. Nota - Bien que le fusil ait été modifié pour employer un chargeur à cinq cartouches, il peut utiliser les anciens chargeurs à trois cartouches. Il est symétrique par rapport à la cartouche du milieu. Les deux talons permettent de le mettre en place en introduisant indifféremment l'un ou l'autre côté dans la boîte de culasse.

    Chargeur Modèle 1916 du Premier (1ère) Type
    1st Type Model 1916 Charger
    These were developed by Sous-Lieutenant Vibert in March 1916 and were originally made by Établissement Bliss et Cie from March 1916 to March 1925. These have three indents on the top and were produced in a dark black-bluing (bronzé noir) only





    Chargeur Modèle 1916 du Deuxième (2ème) Type
    2nd Type Model 1916 Charger
    These have a single indent on the top, these were made from March 1925 up to 1949 or 1950 and were produced in a dark black-bluing (bronzé noir), black phosphate (phosphaté noir) or were coated with gray zinc (zingué gris)





    Additional Type of Chargeurs
    Chargeur d'Exercice
    X ... A 8mm wide "X" in the middle of the top portion of the charger denotes this as a drill/exercise/training charger



    Chargeur à Réfectionné
    + ... A 8mm wide "+" on the base in one of the corners denotes this as a re-used charger. If several number of "+" 's is present it denotes how many times these were re-used



    PK ... This mark is for 'ParKerisation' which was done during 1934 to 1939. All of these that have been observed were coated with gray zinc (zingué gris)



    Santa Fe/Japan ... These were reproductions that were made in Japan for Golden State Arms located in Pasadena, CA through thier Santa Fe Arms Division. These are marked on the base "Santa Fe" and "Japan". They made both the 3 round 2nd Type and 5 round 1st and 2nd Type chargers



    FRANCE ... These are usually marked in white paint with the letters "FRANCE" on the base of the charger and were applied in the USA by various importers denoting that they came from France

    Unidentified Charger
    This could be either a prototype model or an unfinished Chargeur Modèle 1890 du deuxième (2ème) type



    Berthier Boitier Prototype Charger





    © This article is copyrighted. Please do not reproduce this article in whole or part, in any form, without obtaining my written permission
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 12-09-2010 at 07:39 PM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

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    Berthier Charger Line Drawings

    Chargeur de Carabine et de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 du premier (1ème) type


    Chargeur Modèle 1890 du deuxième (2ème) type












    Chargeur Modèle 1916 du premier (1ème) type


    Chargeur Modèle 1916 du deuxième (2ème) type




    Chargeur non identifié
    It is believed this charger was one of the protypes submitted in March 1916 by Contrôleur Généraux Principaux Chossé which lost in the trials to the one submitted by Sous-Lieutenant Vibert in that same year


    Chargeur d'Exercice



    © This article is copyrighted. Please do not reproduce this article in whole or part, in any form, without obtaining my written permission
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 12-09-2010 at 07:39 PM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

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    List of some of the various contractors that made pieces for the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915, Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1916 and Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915 during The Great War:

    1. Établissement Delaunay-Belleville: made complete weapons ... Société Anonyme des Automobiles Delaunay-Belleville was formed in 1903 by Louis Delaunay and Marius Barbarou and was a French luxury automobile manufacturer from Saint Denis sur Seine, France. At the beginning of the 20th century they were among the most prestigious cars produced in the world, and perhaps the most desirable French marque. The Delaunay-Belleville were favorite automobiles of Russian Tsar Nicholas II, and other noblilities, King George I of Greece and King Alphonso XIII of Spain. By the late 1920s the Delaunay-Belleville had lost its prestige and converted to truck and military vehicles production. The factory was sold in 1946 to Robert de Rovin and was used to make the De Rovin minicars up to 1950. They made 159,912 complete Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 and Fusil de Infanterie Modèle Modifié 1916 during The Great War ... Code: EDB
    2. Établissement Continsouza: boîte de culasse ... Établissement Continsouza was created in 1909 by Pierre-Victor Continsouza which produced gramophones and cinematography equipmnent. In 1914 Monsieur Continsouza rented industrial buildings called l'Usine de la Marque in North-East part of Tulle to produce armaments for the war effort. After the war he moved his entire production of cinematography equipmnent to this location. He continued operations until May of 1928 when he merged with Éstablishments Louis Aubert to form a company called Mécanique Industrial de Precision (M.I.P.) but in 1929 he was forced to liquidate his assets to the Banque Nationale de Crédit (B.N.C.) and thus the name Établissements Continsouza disappears from history.
    3. Avis and Co. (USA): made 43,500 barrels, contract was terminated before the end of production due to poor quality of the barrels.
    4. Atelier Bariquand & Marre: têtes mobiles, extracteurs, chiens, manchons, visserie, goupilles et entretoises n'entrant pas dans la composition d'éléments complets ... Code: BM within a circle
    5. Société des Automobiles Brasier: supports d'élévateur, gâchettes, manchons ... Code: B within a circle
    6. Société des Anciens Établissements Chenard & Walker: pontet, vis de crochet, vis d'éjecteur, vis de gâchette ... Code: CW
    7. Établissement Bliss & Cie: chargeurs
    8. Société Anonyme des Anciens Établissements Cohendet & Cie à Paris: tenons à fourche pour mousquetons, ressort d'embouchoirs pour carabine de cavalerie ... Code: CO interlaced
    9. R. Cornely & Cie: pieds de hausse.
    10. Darracq & Cie: embouchoirs à quillon, battants de crosse, embases, pivots, écrous, rondelles, rivet, goupilles, anneaux de battant.
    11. L. Delage & Cie: gâchettes, détentes, goupilles de détente, crochets de chargeur, poignées de baïonnette ... Code: LD
    12. Delahaye & Cie: planches inférieure, ressorts à galet, galets, goupilles, détentes, gâchettes ... Code: D within a circle
    13. Société Lorraine des Anciens Établissements de Dietrich & Cie, Lunéville: planches supérieure, cylindres de culasse, cylindres, vis d'assemblage ... Code: L within a circle
    14. Établissements de Dion-Bouton: planches supérieure, cylindres de culasse, supports d'élévateur ... Code: DB
    15. Société des Établissements Gaumont: pieds de hausse.
    16. M. Guinard: ressorts de grenadière, ressorts de crochet et de gâchette, ressorts de percussion, ressorts de virole de baïonnette, planches de hausse, ressorts de hausse, ressorts de curseur.
    17. Gaston Johnson: pontets, planches supérieure, planches inférieure, ressorts de planche inférieur, galets, vis de planche d'élévateur, goupilles de galet ... Code: J within a circle
    18. Établissement Malicet & Blin: anneaux de grenadière, croisières de baïonnette.
    19. Manufacture d'Etampage et de ferrure du Nord-Est: cylindres de fusil.
    20. Manufacture Parisienne d'Armes et de Mécanique Générale: canons, culasses mobiles ... Code: MPA
    21. F. Marinier: embouchoirs ... Code: MA
    22. Société des Anciens Établissements Panhard & Levassor: chiens, percuteurs, ressorts de percussion, embouchoirs à quillon, viroles de poignée de baïonnette ... Code: PL
    23. Société Générale des Établissements Pathé Frère: ressorts d'embouchoir, écrous, supports de vis de culasse, curseurs de hausse.
    24. Société des Automobiles & Cycles Peugeot: lames de baïonnette, écrous de poignée, fourreaux de baïonnettes ... Code: P
    25. Victor Pouzet: pontets ... Code: P
    26. Automobiles Renault: pontets, supports d'élévateur, t^tes mobiles, percuteurs, éjecteurs, entretoises de pontet, poignées de baïonnette, visserie goupilles et entretoises n'entrant pas dans la composition d'éléments complets ... Code: R
    27. Compagnie Française pour l'Exploitation des Procédés Thomson-Houston: gâchette.
    28. Société des Automobiles Unic: planches inférieure, ressorts de planche supérieure, ressorts à galet, galets, goupilles.
    29. Établissements Vibert-Truchon & Cie: boîtier de protection (mle 1916) ... Code: HVT Co
    30. Établissements Zavaterro à Saint Bonnet le Château: plaques de couche, crosses.
    31. M. Zavattero Frères: plaques de couche
    32. Maison Pathé: planches de hausse
    33. Établissements Boulland
    34. Maison Dacheux Frères
    35. Établissements Vilboeuf & Ladreyt
    36. Société Anonyme (S.A). des Anciens Établissement L. Chambon ... Code: C
    37. Clément Bayard ... Code: CB within a circle

    Comité des Forges de France: pièces de forge ... This committee was created in 1864 by various master of forging mills to study and defend the professional interests of forging mills. It was reorganized in 1887-1888 and played a paramount role in the collective organization of the French iron and steel industry, in particular by the fixing of quotas of the production and the sharing of markets.

    Remington Arms Company Contract History:

    A contract was established by French Army General Désaleux, who was in charge of the Army's Ordnance Section, with Remington Arms and Ammunition Company which was based in Ilion, New York, USA on May 28, 1915 for an unknown quantity of Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 (Rifle of Infantry Model 1907-1915) and Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915 (Sword Bayonet Model 1886 Modified 1915) which was believed to be no more than 200,000 or 250,000 rifles and bayonets. Any documents or records are just missing at this time to answer this question as to how many were to be manufactured by them. The known price for each firearm and bayonet for this contract was to amount $30.00.
    The French military sent three military inspecting officers, Captains Bernard, Chezeaud and Larfouilloux to Remington Arms in either very late summer or early fall of 1915 to oversee and help in the facilitation during the production of these firearms. These men brought with them at least 50 sample arms made by one of the three French National Armories, Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault, commonly called as MAC to use to help verify parts interchangeability of these firearms with those as made in France at its armories.
    One of the biggest challenges was setting up a complete armory to produce these firearms as they had to build one from scratch at Bridgeport, Connecticut as they had other firearm contracts from other nations such as Russia and the United Kingdom for production of firearms for them. Installation of machines began in August of 1915 and was completed by November of 1915, production soon began after that. 14 rifles were presented to the inspecting officers on April 21, 1916 and found 4 of them had barrels that were installed incorrectly. 10 more were inspected on May 6th and these were found with front sights that were miss-aligned or incorrect placed on the barrel. All rifles that had been built up to this point had to re-work by Remington.

    Here is where the story gets a bit complicated and as to why these firearms were not delivered to France. Speculations to the actual cause for the rejection and subsequent cancellation of the contract run the gamut on the internet and in some books. Some say the war ended before they could be fully shipped, which we know now as not true; some say they had dimensional issues with the chambers, were rejected for this problem as they needed to be re-worked before they were shipped and by the time they did get it right the war ended. There were some problems due to these problems as you will read later but not due to the fact the war had ended before they were corrected. Other theories are that they had poor heat treatment of the receivers which caused cracks in them when fired, simply not true; the French changed the contract to make them into Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1916 (Rifle of Infantry Model 1907-1915 Modified 1916) with the 5 shot extended magazine and the French refused to pay for the conversion. We do know that this could not have been a reason as the development of the 'M.16' was not fully completed until September of 1916, regular production of these did not fully start till November 28, 1916 and by that time, the contract had already been canceled.
    The most ridiculous theory on the rejection of these is that the French rejected them due to resentment of the growing influence of the United States, this just doesn't stand up to close scrutiny as at the time the contract was placed the Allies, including the French, were in desperate need of all types of small arms and welcomed all available assistance regardless of the cross Atlantic sentiments of today’s politics.

    The main reason that these were not delivered was the inability of Remington Arms Company to meet the contract clauses as set by the French military as they were accustomed to the punctuality, overall reliability and quality of the French armories to produce firearms. The French military had more important tasks to fulfill, notably running a war, so the choice of canceling the contract was an easy task.
    They expected an average production of 200 rifles per day with a first delivery of 1,000 units to take place on June 12, 1916 and if that delivery was not fulfilled the contract could be canceled. (This batch was fulfilled and arrived in France, just in time) The next landmark date was August 8, 1916 when 40,700 had to be delivered, if half of that quantity was not available for shipment, the contract could be canceled. It became patently clear that the minimum delivery of 20,350 rifles on August 8th could not be accomplished as only 9,444 had been sent to France to date, so the whole contract was just simply canceled completely. Another factor that also could have led to this cancellation of the order was at this time the Battle of Verdun, which had started on February 21, was taking place which was exhausting a horrific toll of men and material.
    The three French National Armories, Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC), Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne (MAS) and Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Tulle (MAT), were very busy manufacturing and re-building these and other types firearms for the war effort that simply cancelling the contract was for the best as Remington was not able to keep with its contract obligations and trying to re-work these firearms at those facilities was just too much of a burden.

    Of the 9,444 that were actually received by the French military were sent to two of the main French National Armories, Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne and Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault where they inspected, serialized, extensively reworked and placed in stores as third class 'reserve weapons'. It was found that the vast majority of the rifles when they were inspected had problems related to them with some having oversize or undersized chambers, bores along with front sights that had been improperly calibrated. It is believed the reason that these rifles had to re-worked was likely due to the fact that Remington’s employees were incapable of understanding the French engineering drawings, which were in milliemes which caused problems during making of these rifles from the engineering plans as sent over by the French and that the person or persons who read the plans interpreted them incorrectly into the English standard units of measurement. The rifles that were reworked by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne was given 'J' letter prefixes and those at Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault were given 'E' letter prefixes starting in 6,000 serial number range.

    The left side of the barrel, top of the bolt handle, bottom of the trigger guard / magazine and left side of the butt of the stock were marked with these letter prefixes and numbers assigned to them. The letters can be found in two types of fonts, one is the typical French lettering font as used on their manufactured firearms and other as simple block lettering as used on firearms made by private contract companies such as Établissement Delaunay-Belleville. The right side of the butt of the stock was marked with a round cartouche called in French as a roundel which showed what year (6 o'clock), month (12 o'clock), who manufactured it (8 o'clock), who the Directeur de Manufacture (Director of Manufacture) (4 o'clock) and Contrôleur Généraux Principaux (Final Arms Inspector) (9 o'clock) when the rifle was accepted for service in the military by the Comité de la Réception (Reception Committee). In the center of the cartouche were the letters MA which stood for Manufacture d'Armes. As these were made outside of the French main armories the only information placed in the cartouche was the month, year and which armory that made it in the center, no other coded letters were used on the cartouche.

    The vast majority of these rifles were sold after the war to the American public through the Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM); the predecessor of today’s Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) and never had type of prefix letter and or number placed on them. Some of these were also sold to movie gun rental companies such as Stembridge Gun Movie Rentals which had an inventory number placed on either the right side of the receiver and / or the barrel. The inventory number could also be found on the wooden stock on the underside of the wrist area and some even had numbers place on the left or right side of the stock.
    Contrary to popular belief none of the rifles were ever brought over by the American 'Doughboys' when they came to France in 1917 and 1918 and they were also not used or issued to either the 92nd and 93rd 'Colored' American Expeditionary Forces Divisions which were attached to the French Army. Also no other French Berthier rifle, carbines or musketoons models were ever built or modified by Remington Arms


    © This article is copyrighted. Please do not reproduce this article in whole or part, in any form, without obtaining my written permission
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 05-20-2016 at 06:08 AM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

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    How to Disassemble and Reassemble the bolt on the Berthier

    Bolt Closed


    Move the bolt back so far that the front lugs on the bolt head line up with wide slotted spaced area in the middle of the receiver that looks like a cut out



    Remove the screw on top of the top strap foward of the bolt handle root


    Now take the knurled and slotted firing pin retaining nut on the rear of the bolt,and rotate it clockwise (looking from rear) until it rotates the bolt head with its small retaining lug free from the rest of the bolt and rests against the near rear wall of the receiver



    Now grasp the bolt and pull it out of the action (You don't need to pull the trigger) The small retaining lug on the bolt head will go up against that near rear wall and will help pull the bolt head free from the rest of the bolt assembly
    Then simply remove the bolt head from the receiver


    Now you have all three parts to the bolt
    1.Bolt head
    2.Bolt assembly
    3.Bolt head retaining screw



    Now you want to disassemble the rest of the bolt
    You want to de-cock the bolt assembly by rotating the cocking piece to the left, allowing it to slide down the cocking cam
    You will see how it should look when it de-cocks and compare to previous photo off when it came out of the weapon



    Now here is the fun part of the disassembly
    Take the bolt assembly to a piece of hardwood, place the firing pin against it and push on it rotating the firing pin retaining nut, so that the slot is parallel to the vertical axis of the cocking piece, the rear of the firing pin and firing pin retaining nut should emerge from the back of the bolt cocking piece,slide the retaining nut to one side or the other and it will become free. Now be careful as you are removing the tension from the other parts of the bolt as they are under heavy tension from spring and can hurt you
    Now you have disassembled the bolt assembly
    You will reverse the order when putting it back together again



    To remove the magazine system out of the weapon do the following:
    1. With a screwdriver of proper dimension, remove the screw located on the right side of the receiver, paying attention as to not damaging the wood with a too large screw driver bit.
    2. Remove the screw behind the trigger guard ... this one is a regular type screw
    3. Now pull the trigger guard in a downwards motion to remove it from the wood. The trigger mecanism and the magazine come with it.
    To seperate the receiver/barrel from the wood
    Now you can see two screws inside a plate that was hidden by the trigger guard. There is only one regular type screw, you remove that one screw only and the whole receiver/barrel will seperate from the wood.
    The other special "fork" type screw you will leave in place ... DO NOT REMOVE
    These screws were made this way so that the ordinary French soldier could not take that part off the weapon which was only to be done by the armourers at a main armament facility.
    4. Remove the front and rear barrel bands
    This is as far as you want to disassemble the weapon for normal cleaning and maintenance.

    The assembly is more or less in the opposite order : When your receiver and you barrel are back in the wood, you can put the middle and front bands before screwing the receiver to the wood. Put the trigger guard in place. Put the screw of the right side of the receiver first, but don't screw it tightly. You will certainly have to press on the trigger guard to ease it. This screw is sometimes hard to put back in place. You finish by the screw of the trigger guard. When it is back in place, you can finish to screw the screw of the right side of the receiver.

    © This article is copyrighted. Please do not reproduce this article in whole or part, in any form, without obtaining my written permission
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 12-09-2010 at 07:40 PM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  7. #7
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    Default Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1934 Serial Number Listing

    Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1934


    In 1932 both Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC) and Tulle (MAT) began work on this new conversion, to be called the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1934 or simply “M.34”, after a series of testing at both Camp de Châlons and Camp de Versailles it was adopted for service in early 1934. The weapon was to retain the typical Berthier lineage but was modified to the following major components: the barrel was replaced with a new 570 mm (22.4 inch) chambered for the Modèle 1929C à Balle Ordinaire otherwise know as the 7,5x54mm; both the front and rear sights were changed to reflect the change in the new caliber ballistics, the rear sight leaf and base was changed to a sliding ramp type which was graduated from 200 to 900 meters; the bolt head was replaced with one that was able to support the base of the rimless Modèle 1929C and a movable type ejector added; hand guards were added to the top of the barrel and with this a new lower barrel band and hand guard retaining ring near the receiver was used to hold it in place. The biggest modification however was the magazine system which was changed to a 5 round staggered-column box type with a spring loaded follower and solid floor plate. The top of the receiver was notched with charger guides so that the magazine could be loaded by the use of a charger/stripper clip. This new rifle was 1,075 mm (42.32 inch) in overall length and weighed 3,700 kg (8.15 pounds). There were two different variations made, one for the infantry and one for the cavalry. The difference between these two was the sling placement, the infantry model had the typical under mounted rear sling configuration and the cavalry model utilizing the sling bar and both had the concentric ring mounted on the left side of the weapon. Approximately 65,000 weapons were converted to this new system from 1935 to 1939 and 90% converted were the infantry version. The bayonet used on the models was either the Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915 Raccourci 1935 or Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892-1915 depending on the variation of the model. Most of these rifles were issued to the Fortress Infantry such as those who were stationed on the Maginot Line.
    More information can be found at this link: http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/FR%20...-15%20M34.html

    F 131 - Left side of barrel: AEG,Circle 'B'; Right side of barrel: MAT 1935; Bottom of barrel: Circle 'B',E ... Waffenmapts are present under Circle 'B', under Mle, next to Cal 7,5 and on stock behind the triggerguard. Rear Sight: D2 ... owned by French moderator 1886lebel
    F 64X - MAT 1936/5 metal AEG, ('LK5' marked on the right hand butt-flat)
    F 1665 - MAT 1935, AEG, Circle B (Mismatched bolt and stock, missing handguard)
    F 1715 - MAT 1935
    F 47XX - (serial of a mismatching bolt)
    F 8890 - MAT 1936, AEG, Circle B
    F 9031 - MAT 1936 Left side barrel "AEG" Circle B, underside barrel "N", "E", Circle B, Underside of rear sight "N"
    F 104XX - MAT 1936
    F 13044 - AEG, MAT 1936
    F 14707 - MAS 1936
    F 16916 - AEG, MAT 1936 (+5, 'B', "E")
    F 18134 - (Gazette des armes NA 221)
    F 19437 - MAS 1936
    F 220XX - AEG, MAT 1936 (+5, 'B', "E")
    F 23111 - Unknown
    F 24822 - MAS 1936 Left side barrel "RG", Bottom of barrel "E", "12", crest with "G"
    F 27182 - MAS 1936 ("LK5")
    F 316XX - Unknown
    F 34734 - MAS 1937 (from seller's description Cut-away rifle)
    F 34884 - MAS 1937 (Sporterized Stock)
    F 36983 - MAS 1937 ("LK5")
    F 38382 - Unknown
    F 485XX - MAT 1938
    F 461XX - barrel MAT 1938 '-5'
    F 497XX -- MAT 1938
    F 501XX - barrel MAS 4/1938
    F 50863 - MAS 1938
    F 509XX - barrel MAT 1938
    F 533XX - MAT 1938
    F 53687 - MAT 1938/ no month (no '5') & ("LK5")
    F 55031 - unknown
    F 53817 - unknown
    F 57213 - MAT 1939
    F 57526 - Unknown
    F 5754X - MAT 1939/ no month (no '5')
    F 57695 - (Gazette des armes NA 221)
    F 5811X - MAS 1938/12
    F 599XX - MAT 1939
    F 5XX21 - MAT 1939
    F 6090X - MAS 1939/6 (Cut-away)
    F 61059 - MAT 1939 (Upper L/H barrel, "C", circle "9")
    F 61106 - Unknown
    F 61241 - (Gazette des armes NA 221)
    F 6302X - MAS not readable (Cavalry)

    43 reported
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 09-25-2016 at 05:28 PM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  8. #8
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    Default

    Pictures:
    1) In the dim of the vault the Mdl 1936 was chosen because the shade of its stock was closest to the M.34. It is an early MAS, about 20 months the junior of the M.34, but I did not realize how "around-the-block'/'salty-dog' most all of the "G" series look in comparision.
    2) F 16916 in its walnut stock with a World War Two Mle.M.16 Berthier, below.
    3) From the beginning the M.34 used correction sights to adjust azimuth/deflection. Three 'D2's, two 'N's, a 'G3' and a 'D4' have so far been noted. These adjustment are much finer than those used on the Modèle 1936, with its '+4','-4','N','D4',and 'G4' equivalents; a "one-size-fits-all' application.
    4) The mag-follower was a stamped assembly, unlike those used by the M.27 or the Modèle 1936.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSCN0131..jpg   DSCN0174..JPG   DSCN0111..JPG   DSCN0112..JPG  
    Last edited by orcmastiffs; 03-31-2010 at 09:23 PM.

  9. #9
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    Lightbulb More info

    Patrick I want to up-date the info on my 07/15-34 s/n F 599XX listed in your post above.
    While I have not had the time to remove it from the stock I did remove the handguard and the barrel date is MA T1939 and if it is important it is in a walnut stock with all numbers matching.
    . . . . any other information you would like?


    Whatever information you have would be appreciated ... one thing is the rear sight marking, what is it ?, these will be interesting to aquire information on as pointed out in previous post.
    The more information we have the more we learn on these weapons.
    Patrick
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 03-10-2010 at 01:47 PM.
    Regards, Hank
    "I've collected and now I must sell it all"
    U.S. Navy Cold War & Vietnam era Veteran
    American Legion Post 74
    Dillwyn 315 AF&AM
    Royal Arch, Chapter 64

  10. #10
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    Default

    Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 Premier (1ère) Type (Carbine of Cavalry Model 1890 First (1st) Type)

    These firearm's were officially adopted as per a Ministerial Decision (Décision Ministérielle) dated the 10th of December of 1890, which was latter called as the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 Premier (1ère) Type (Carbine of Cavalry Model 1890 First (1st) Type) by the French military to distinguish between the two different types of the same model. (See below firearm for details of the 2ème Type)
    These utilized a one piece stock which was stocked to within 44.45 mm (1.750 inch) of the muzzle, had an overall length of 945 mm (37.21 inch) with a 453 mm (17.83 inch) barrel and weighing 3000 g (6.61 pounds). It featured two barrel bands, an upper and lower of which the upper does not feature a straight ball-tipped stacking hook as seen on later type upper barrel bands for stacking arms together; a 482 mm (19 inch) clearing rod that was placed in a channel down the left side of the stock which was used to remove a stuck cartridge in the chamber and for stacking arms together; and lacks a top hand guard. The sling configuration is unique in that a rotating swivel mounted on the underside of the stock works in combination with a concentric ring mounted on the left side of the lower barrel band allowing for it to easily be slung over the back of the cavalryman. These were originally only issued to the Metropolitan French Light Cavalry Regiments (Régiments de Cavalerie Légère Française) which was composed of (16) Regiments of Dragoons (Régiments de Dragons), (33) Regiments of Hussars (Régiments de Hussards), (24) Regiments of Light Cavalry of Horse (Régiments de Chasseurs à Cheval) and in 1905 they issued to the Military Supply Transport Squadrons (Escadrons du Train des Équipages Militaires). These were not designed to accept a bayonet, since all of the mounted units of the French Army were issued lances, sabers or swords as their primary arms.

    This particular firearm was made by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne in February of 1892, as indicated on the bottom of the barrel flat (2) and right side of the barrel (MA S 1892); the left side of the barrel shows the serial number and letter prefix of G 681; the steel for the barrel (Pourvoyeur de Acier) was provided by Société Anonyme des Aciéries et Forges de Firminy which was formerly called Verdié Companie (FV); the first circled letter is the Director of Manufacturer (Directeur de Manufacture) who was Colonel Percin (P) and the second circled letter is the Principle General Controller or called as the Final Arms Inspector (Contrôleur Généraux Principaux) and is unknown who this was at this time but could have been F.J. Parent (P). This firearm does have a cartouche (Macaron / Roundel) but is starting to fade a bit and as a result it is illegible to read due to the wear on it.

    This carbine has not been modified to use Balle D as you will see the right rear sight ramp has not been filed down and the slider has not been modified for this cartridge.

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    Chasseur à Cheval
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    Hussard
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    from the collection of 1886lebel
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 09-20-2016 at 11:50 PM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  11. #11
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    Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 Deuxième (2ème) Type (Carbine of Cavalry Model 1890 Second (2nd) Type)


    It was found that the sling due to its rotating type swivel located at the bottom of the stock and concentric ring mounted on the left side of the lower barrel band of the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 1ère Type was not suited for carrying while mounted as it tore into the uniform and the shoulders of the trooper, therefore it was decided by a Ministerial Decree (Décret Ministériel) put out by the Ministry of War (Ministre de La Guerre) on the 30th of May 1894 to modify the firearm to carry it in a better position while on the back of the cavalry trooper. The rotating sling swivel mounted on the underside of the stock was removed, filled in with a wood patch and replaced with a 6 cm (2.36 inch) steel sling bar placed over an inletted notch in the left side of the stock. The concentric ring was replaced with a straight type retention bar which resulted in the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 Deuxième (2ème) Type (Carbine of Cavalry Model 1890 Second (2nd) Type) being adopted for service on the 25th of March 1895. In 1909 another Ministerial Decree was written to modify the 1st Type models that had not been modified to this new system.

    This particular firearm was made by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne in December of 1891, as indicated on the bottom of the barrel flat (12) and right side of the barrel (MA S 1891); the left side of the barrel shows the serial number and letter prefix of F 93538; the steel for the barrel was provided by Companie des Forges de Châtillon, Gemmentry et Neuves-Maisons (CC); the first circled letter is the Director of Manufacturer (Directeur de Manufacture) who was Colonel Percin (P) and the second circled letter is the Principle General Controller or called as the Final Arms Inspector (Contrôleur Généraux Principaux) and is unknown who this was at this time but could have been F.J. Parent (P). This firearm does have a cartrouche (Macaron / Roundel) of January (Janvier) of 1892.

    This carbine has been modified for Balle D as you can see the right rear sight has been filed down but the slider has not been modified for this cartridge.
    As you can see that this particular carbine had the rotating sling swivel mounted on the underside of the stock removed, filled in with a wood patch and replaced with a 6 cm (2.36 inch) steel sling bar placed over an inletted notch in the left side of the stock. The concentric ring mounted lower barrel band was replaced with a straight type retention bar type.

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    Dragons
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    from the collection of 1886lebel
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 05-26-2016 at 11:00 PM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  12. #12
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    Default

    A Ministerial Decree (Décret Ministériel) was put out by the Ministry of War (Ministre de La Guerre) dated the 25th of July 1915 to modify 135,000 Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890's to the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 configuration so that they could utilize the Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892. The modification consisted of setting back the front portion of the original wooden stock 114 mm (4.48 inch) from the muzzle, adding a bayonet bar, barrel band spring, barrel band spring screw and screw tube to the front of it. The barrel band spring screw had to be reduced to 20,9 mm (.822 inch) and the tube to 13,5 mm (.531 inch). The front barrel band was to be replaced with a smaller diameter type as was used on the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 with or without a stacking rod on it. Either a shorter clearing rod, 457 mm (18 inch) was utilized or the original was to be modified to this size. The latter straight type retention bar barrel bands were to retained with this modification. In April of 1916 1,000 of these completed and in July another 1,000 were completed. In July of 1917, Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault proposed, which was authorized, to replace any unusable stocks with ones made specifically for the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 but utilizing the steel sling bar placed over an inletted notch in the left side of the stock and using the concentric ring mounted lower barrel band.

    This particular firearm is one of the modifications of the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 to the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 configuration that was made by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne In August of 1903, as indicated on the bottom of the barrel flat (8) and right side of the barrel (MA S 1903); the left side of the barrel shows the serial number and letter prefix of G 7716 (this the highest serial number so far documented of the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 made by MAS); the steel for the barrel was provided by Bedel Pere Ses Fils et Companie (AB); the first circled letter is the Director of Manufacturer (Directeur de Manufacture) who was Colonel Lefebvre (L) and the second circled letter is the Principle General Controller or called as the Final Arms Inspector (Contrôleur Généraux Principaux) and is unknown who this was at this time (M). This firearm does have a cartrouche (Macaron / Roundel) of Octobre (October) of 1903 but is starting to fade out and the camera I have just could not capture it.

    This carbine was made for the Balle D cartridge as you can see that both the left and right rear sight elevation step are equal to one another but the slider has the groove on the left side for use with those that still retain the higher left elevation steps.
    As you can also see this firearm still retains the latter straight type retention bar barrel band that was used on the Carbine of Cavalry Model 1890 2nd Type.
    This firearm it was brought back by H. J. D. of 'E' Battery, 2nd Battalion, 15th Field Artillery Regiment, AEF which is stamped on the buttplate.

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    Dragons (1915)
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    from the collection of 1886lebel
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 01-07-2016 at 01:59 AM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  13. #13
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    Default

    Carabine de Cuirassier Modèle 1890 (Carbine of Cuirassier Model 1890)

    These firearms were officially adopted as per a Ministerial Decision (Décision Ministérielle) dated the 10th of December of 1890. This model had the same exact barrel length as the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 but was slightly longer in overall length, 952 mm (37.48 inch) and weighed less, 2980 g (6.57 pounds). These were only issued to the Metropolitan French Heavy Cavalry Regiments (Cavalerie Lourde Française) which was composed of (12) Regiments of Cuirassiers of Horse (Régiments de Cuirassiers à Cheval).
    This particular model also differed from the regulation Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 as it featured a combless stock and hard leather buttplate, that were all made by Établissement Demange et Fils which was located at Boulevard Voltaire à Paris, which was secured to butt by three horizontal brass screws . This leather buttplate was utilized as it more suitable than the standard steel butt plate, which would have slipped off the tapered Model 1855 breast plate armor (Cuirasse Modèle 1855) during recoil and possibly damaging the plate. The combless stock was adopted as these troopers wore the Model 1874 helmet (Casque Cuirassier Modèle 1874) which had metal chinstrap scales riveted on the leather band and when worn down over the chin would have made it difficult to get a proper cheek weld on the stock when firing, the removal of the comb allowed them to get this proper cheek weld.
    These carbines were not slung over the backs of the troopers while mounted but instead were carried in a full leather scabbard on the rear, right side of the saddle which were called as the Étui de Carabine de Cuirassier, so as we learned before with the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 the sling configuration did not have to be modified for better carry over the shoulder of the cavalry troopers. These carbines were also not designed to accept a bayonet, since all Cuirassier troopers primary arm was their saber

    This particular firearm was made by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault in November of 1891, as indicated on the bottom of the barrel flat (11) and right side of the barrel (MA C 1891); the left side of the barrel shows the serial number and letter prefix of A 19835 (this the highest serial number documented so far seen of these models); the steel for the barrel was provided by Companie des Forges de Châtillon, Gemmentry and Menses-Maisons (C); the first circled letter is the Director of Manufacturer (Directeur de Manufacture) who was Lt. Colonel Arthur Langlois (L) and the second circled letter is the Principle General Controller or called as the Final Arms Inspector (Contrôleur Généraux Principaux)who was Léonard Chadelin (C). This firearm does have a cartrouche (Macaron / Roundel) of November (Novembre) of 1891 ... what is interesting about this cartouche is the 8 and 9 o'clock positions have been reversed (the norm was at 8 o'clock was the Manufacture who made the firearm and 9 o'clock was the Contrôleur Généraux Principaux code). Also on this cartouche is the new letter codes of both the Directeur de Manufacture and Contrôleur Généraux Principaux codes that took over MAC on November 17,1891 ... (C) at 4 o'clock is the Directeur de Manufacture Chef d'Escadron Bonaventure, Joseph, François Camps and (S) at 8 o'clock is the Contrôleur Généraux Principaux Léonard Sedelene.

    This carbine has been modified for Balle D as you can see the right rear sight has been filed down and slider has been modified for this cartridge.

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    from the collection of 1886lebel
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 01-07-2016 at 02:07 AM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  14. #14
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    Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890


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    Last edited by 1886lebel; 12-12-2015 at 06:45 AM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  15. #15
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    Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 (Musketoon of Artillery Model 1892)

    As French military doctrine required the Artillery to work in close concert with the both the Infantry and Cavalry, they would be in need of secondary type firearm to protect themselves at close quarters which did not require a full sized rifle, so it was decided to equip these regiments with a short type carbine that could easily be slung over the shoulders while they worked.

    As the Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890 had been developed for usage with a bayonet, it naturally had been decided to simply adopt this carbine for usage with these units but changing the name and year of it to be called as the Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 which was formally adopted into service as per a Ministerial Decision (Décision Ministérielle) dated the 30th of August, 1892. (The usage of the name of Mousqueton is a traditional French name given to firearms that were designed to be used with Artillery Troops).
    These musketoons utilized the same one piece stock as were previously used with earlier carbines but was not stocked up to near the muzzle as it was to have an addition of a bayonet bar for usage with a short saber type bayonet which was developed especially for this model called the Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892 (Saber Bayonet Model 1892). What they came up with was to set back the front portion of the stock, 114 mm (4.48 inch) from the muzzle, adding a bayonet bar, barrel band spring, barrel band spring screw and screw tube to the front of it. The barrel band spring screw had to be reduced to 20,9 mm (.822 inch) and the tube to 13,5 mm (.531 inch). The front barrel band used on these was a smaller diameter than those previously had been used on the earlier cavalry carbines and did not feature a straight ball-tipped stacking hook until 1927 when they eliminated the clearing rod from usage. The clearing rods were 457 mm (18 inch) in length and were placed in a channel down the left side of the stock which was used to remove a stuck cartridge in the chamber and for stacking arms together; and lacks a top hand guard. These utilized a rotating type swivel on the bottom of the stock and concentric ring mounted lower barrel band for mounting of the sling. These firearms had an overall length of 945 mm (37.21 inch) with a 453 mm (17.83 inch) barrel and weighing 3100 g (6.83 pounds).

    These firearms were originally issued to the Regiments of Artillery (Régiments de Artillerie) but starting in the late 1890's and 1900's they were also issued to the Regiments of Engineers (Régiments du Génie), Regiments of Transportation (Régiments du Train), Machine Gun Troops (Troupes de Mitrailleurs) and to the French National Navy Naval Fusiliers (Marine Nationale Fusiliers Marins) which only acquired about 2,000 of these for their usage. These were also originally issued to the French Colonial Vietnamese Troops (Tirailleurs Indochinois) but it was found that these had too severe of a recoil for them to handle that a specialized rifle had to be developed for them which came in 1902 in the form of the Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902.

    This particular firearm was made by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault in September of 1892, as indicated on the bottom of the barrel flat (9) and right side of the barrel (MA C 1892); the left side of the barrel shows the serial number and letter prefix of A 33299; the steel for the barrel was provided by Jacob Holtser et Companie à Unieux (JH); the first circled letter is the Director of Manufacturer (Directeur de Manufacture) who was Chef d'Escadron Bonaventure, Joseph, François Camps (C) and the second circled letter is the Principle General Controller or called as the Final Arms Inspector (Contrôleur Généraux Principaux) who was Léonard Sedelene (S). This firearm does have a cartrouche (Macaron / Roundel) of September (Septembre) of 1892.

    This musketoon has been modified for Balle D as you can see the right rear sight has been filed down and slider has been modified for this cartridge.

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    from the collection of 1886lebel
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 01-07-2016 at 04:52 AM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  16. #16
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    Dec 1969
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    This particular Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 (Musketoon of Artillery Model 1892) has the uniquely made curved stacking hook that was used on the upper barrel band which came about in 1902 as per a Ministerial Decree (Décret Ministériel) put out by the Minisrty of War (Ministre de La Guerre) dated the 10th of January to allow these firearms to be stacked for a long period in the field by the 'Alpine Batteries' of Regiments of Mountain Artillery ('Batteries Alpines' de Régiments de Artillerie de Montagne), these bands were called as the Embouchoir Modèle 1902.
    The firearms that used this type of upper barrel bands were just regular production Model 1892's and were not specially built for this modification and were not called as the Model 1892 / 1902 or 1902 Colonial Carbine, or by any other designation or name, they were just simply a Mousqueton de Artillerie Modèle 1892 with the addition of this barrel band for usage by the specialized troops above.

    This particular firearm was made by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne in August of 1896, as indicated on the bottom of the barrel flat (8) and right side of the barrel (MA S 1896); the left side of the barrel shows the serial number and letter prefix of H 8467; the steel for the barrel was provided by Schneider-Canet et Companie en Creusot (SC); the first circled letter is the Director of Manufacturer (Directeur de Manufacture) who was Lt.Colonel Mourret (M) and the second circled letter is the Principle General Controller or called as the Final Arms Inspector (Contrôleur Généraux Principaux) and is unknown who this was at this time (F). This firearm does have a cartrouche (Macaron / Roundel) but is starting to fade a bit and as a result it is illegible to read due to the wear on it.

    This musketoon has been modified for Balle D as both the left and right rear sight elevation step are equal to one another and the slider is made for this cartridge, basically this rear sight is a replacement used after 1901.

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    from the collection of 1886lebel
    Last edited by 1886lebel; 01-06-2016 at 06:45 PM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  17. #17
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    Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892 (Saber Bayonet Model 1892)

    There were three different variations which underwent a number of changes during their time in service and are listed below ...
    Specifications: Overall Length: 21.25 in (540 mm); Blade length: 15.43 in (392 mm); Weight: .94 lb (425 g); Scabbard Length: 16.25 in (412 mm); Scabbard Weight: .47 lb (215 g)

    The Premier (1ère) Type (First (1st) Type) was the original version which featured a muzzle ring that did not extend over the grips that were made of a hard black vulcanized rubber grips called fibre noir that were affixed by two small pins. These type of grips are often called as 'bakelite' in collecting circles.
    In 1905, wood (bois) was to be used for the grips as it was found that the bakelite grips were easily broken during service as they aged but for some reason this never got completely done. The grips were now to be affixed by much fatter pins and rivets.

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    The Deuxième (2ème) Type (Second (2nd) Type) was developed as it was found that the bayonet was not secured on the front sight very tightly, so in 1912 they modified the bayonet muzzle ring to extend 1/8 of an inch over the back of the grips to allow it to be better locked on the barrel and front sight. Both bakelite and wood grips were used with this variation.

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    The Troisième (3ème) Type) (Third (3rd) Type) is easily distinguishable by the removal of the first third of the quillion during the manufacturing process, not cut-off as it is often written in books or on the internet. It is not know when exactly this process was done as some sources say it was done in January 1915 and others say it was late September 1918. It is believed that the partial removal of the quillion was done, for 'trench' warfare and ease of manufacturing steps. In 1915 wood grips were exclusively used and any of the bakelite grips that were brought in for repairs were to replaced.

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    Last edited by 1886lebel; 12-29-2015 at 09:37 PM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  18. #18
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    Dec 1969
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    Turkish Forestry Carbine

    Turkey is a widely forested country as almost 30% of the country is covered by woodlands, nearly all of it owned directly by the Turkish government. One of the most valuable trees in the forests, and a source of considerable income for the government, is Circassia Walnut. Poachers of these trees were becoming increasingly bold, and were a threat to the 5,000 the Turkish Forestry Rangers tasked with protecting these forests, so it was decided in the late 1940's, most likely 1948, to arm these men with firearms to both protect themselves and this valuable resource. The Turkish Ministry of Forest and Water Management (Orman ve Su İşleri Bakanlığı) looked for a simple firearm to arm these rangers with and came up with a unique solution, a rebuilt Berthier. At the time, the Turkish government had tens of thousands of these firearms on hand which came from many different sources such as ones they had captured during The Great War (WWI), the Turkish War of Independence (1919-1923), had intercepted during WWII from Vichy forces in Syria and Lebanon either from trains passing through their territory on route to Iraq or interned Vichy French Forces fleeing the British and their Allies during Operation Exporter in 1941 or in some cases were received as gifts from the Germans over the years and literally millions of rounds of ammunition. The reason to utilize these had several distinct advantages for usage by the Forestry Service. These were very rugged, as these men were and still remain a group that mostly operates on horseback and could be easily slung over the back while on patrol. These were not able to challenge the real military if they fell into any revolutionary rebel hands and the 8x50R nm cartridge that it fired was rare in civilian hands and not commonly available on the black market. With no ready source of ammunition even if the rifle fell into the wrong hands it was unlikely it would be very useful. A final factor was that the rifle was very distinctive in profile and a stolen Berthier would cause attention to the authorities the way other weapons would not have.

    As they mostly had alot of rifles on hand, mostly Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 and Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1916's and wanted the rangers to carry a carbine so they had to heavily modify these rifles to a carbine type configuration.
    They started out by shortening the barrel about 228.60 mm (9 inches) which gave it a length of 533 mm (21 inches) long and re-crowned the muzzle; installed a Mauser front sight and front sight base; cut the front portion of stock to the new length of the barrel; removed the rear sight base and component's, re-graduated the steps on the rear sight base, added graduation markings on the top of the rear sight leaf and cut in notches in the slider so that the numbers on the top of the rear sight leaf could be read easily; installed a upper hand guard retainer sleeve or also refered to as a barrel shroud right up against where the barrel meets the receiver; replaced the rear sight about 12.7 mm (1/2 inch) from the front of the barrel shroud; had to machine out new grooves for rear sight base and the barrel shroud in the stock; re-worked the front of the stock so that a Mauser Model 1905 Carbine Nose Cap and band retainer spring could be utilized; re-shaped the middle of stock for use of Mauser Model 1905 barrel band and band retainer spring; made a new hand guard; changed out the magazine system if they were of the 5 shot variety so that they were of the 3 shot type; Turn down the bolt handle by about 45 degrees and finally re-bluing and sometimes refinishing the stock as needed.
    It is believed that approximately 5,000 of these firearms were modified by the Turkish Military Factories Administration which was called Askari Fabrikalar Ankara (ASFA), which was based in the capital city of Ankara. These are marked on the top of the receiver with T.C. for Türkiye Cumhuriyeti (Turkish Republic), Orman for Turkish word Forest and 1948 for the year that this was done. As they had made these carbines out of many different firearms, parts were not matched to one another but a serial number unique to these was placed on the left side of the receiver and bolt.

    This particular firearm was an ex-Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 which was made by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne in November as indicated on the bottom of the barrel flat (11) of an unknown year as the barrel shroud has covered up its original markings and I did not want to remove it as I might have damaged doing so in the process. The new Turkish serial number used on this firearm is 4089.

    This carbine has been modified for Modèle 1932N cartridge as indicated on the top of the receiver with a capital N but this N is not the type as used by French. This could have been placed there by the Turkish factory when they re-worked the firearm for one reason or another, we just do not know as to why.

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    Last edited by 1886lebel; 08-08-2016 at 03:48 PM.
    Co-Author of the book:
    Banzai Special Project No. 1, The Siamese Mauser, A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

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