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  1. #1
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    Default RELOAD: Danish Remington 11,7x51R/56 R

    Since the thoughtlessly created new forum per its title explicitly excludes RBs, Jarmanns, Schultz & Larsen and and and many more (silly, silly, SILLY !), I shall repost this thread here where it better fits:

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    Curator
    Posted - 03/26/2004 : 07:48:31 AM
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    I have a great Danish Remington in 11.7X51R wich I want to shoot. I have brass from Buffaloarms but was concerned about a choice of bullets and loads. I would prefer to use smokeless, and have RX7 and IMR4759 on hand. Anyone here have any experience with this rifle/cartridge? Any information on the original cartridge and loadings would be appreciated as well.



    Krag
    Posted - 03/26/2004 : 08:18:00 AM
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    According to CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD it's the 11.4x51R Danish Remington. It was originally a rimfire round but was changed to centerfire in 1896. The military load was a 387 gr. lead bulet at 1345 fps.

    The above book lists the following recommended loads:

    300 gr. lead bullet + 34 gr. IMR 4196
    405 gr. lead bullet + 29 gr. IMR 4196
    380 gr. lead bullet +50 gr. Fg blackpowder



    mag
    Posted - 03/26/2004 : 4:10:23 PM
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    Start at 22.0 of SR-4759 with a bullet about 400 gr. You need to slug your bore as these rifles tend to run about .460+ . The bore dia will help you pick a bullet, big bore = soft lead, hollow base or long bullet. The quick "bump" caused by the fast burning SR-4759 will also help the bullet fill the bore. The Danish RB's are very accurate if you load right. Mine will do right at 2.5 5-shot groups at 100 yards. The last post probably meant I-4198 as the powder or it could just be a misprint for the book he was looking at. You should have your caliber correct as most all of them were converted to the centerfire cartridge you stated. mag



    tbaus
    Posted - 03/28/2004 : 9:42:07 PM
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    http://www.militaryrifles.com/Denmark/DanshRem.htm This link is to a good little blurb and some good pictures of a Danish rolling block. Mine is like the one pictured. It has both the center fire - firing pin setup and the rimfire setup that could be used by just moving the firing pin. That way, both sets of ammo could be used. Good shootin'...



    Buckshot
    Posted - 03/29/2004 : 01:10:49 AM
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    You can use about any load shown as suitable for the 45-70 in the Trapdoor Springfield. Rick



    Maverick35N
    Posted - 03/30/2004 : 7:16:34 PM
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    I reload pretty much as Buckshot does, using any load for a 45-70 Trapdoor. I also use the same cast bullets. I size the bullets for the Trapdoor, but not those that I use in the Danish RB. My bullets are 405 gr hollow base. In a pinch, I just shoot 45-70 cast rounds in the Dane.
    My best load so far has been 35 grain of IMR 3031 with a soft cast 405 grain hollow base round nose bullet. Both my 1884 Trapdoor and Danish RB love this load and get nice tight groups with it.



    mag
    Posted - 03/31/2004 : 12:11:17 AM
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    Something else for you to check. See if your rifle has been rechambered to 45/70, many have. If it has not the 45/70 rounds will not fit. mag



    eric
    Posted - 03/31/2004 : 06:35:22 AM
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    If your rifle has index marks and a crown on the top of the barrel/receiver junction, it was probably reamed to accept the 11.7x56mm (not 51mm) cartridge when it was converted from rim fire to center fire. You can get a sample of the brass from Buffalo Arms and they will exchange/credit you for the shorter stuff if you haven't shot it yet (the 51mm brass will work - just loose a little accuracy).

    I highly reccomend the Lee 405 HB bullet as it casts a little oversize and most of the Danish rifles slug around .462 - .465.

    With that bullet cast 20-1 and unsized, I get great groups with the starting "trapdoor" 45-70 loads of H4198 for 400 grain cast bullets. I also use it (no wad) with a full case of FFg - almost as accurate - need to try a properly sized flat base bullet so I can use a wad and see.

    One note is the Danish rifles have a slow twist and won't stabilize bullets much heavier/longer than 400-450 grains.

    I use 45-70 dies and just barely resize the case mouth (decap seperately).

    Mine was converted with a globe front and nice tang sight when I got it - fantastic shooting rifle.



    John Sukey
    Posted - 03/31/2004 : 11:32:32 AM
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    Rechambered? The Danish round is LARGER than the .45-70 since the arse end is fatter. That's why they use .348Win cases to make the conversion.

    anyhow, I like the smoke and stink of Black powder and cleaning is no more difficult. Its what the rifle was intended to use.



    dgv2
    Posted - 03/31/2004 : 4:36:36 PM
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    John, Sorry, but you'll never get a .348 Winchester case into a 11.7mm Danish chamber. The .348 Win has a base diameter of .553 inch versus .514 inch for the Danish base. There is no practical way to swage down or cut down a .348 that much. On the other hand, a .45-70 has a base diameter of .500, which is a little small, but workable. In fact I own Danish Rolling Blocks that are both unconverted and converted to .45-70. I have watched the conversion being done without disassembling the rifle and by hand. The .45-70 reamer is held straight by it's bore guide and it cuts the chamber about .1 inch deeper from 2.01 to 2.105 inch. It also opens the rim diameter up from .579 to .600 inch. It removes so little metal that with a nice sharp reamer it is easily done by hand. While the .014 difference in bases may seem like a lot on paper, it is not in fact and the fired cases come out looking fine. To modify .45-70 brass for my uncut Danish, I trim it back .1 inch and reduce the rim diameter .2 inch. Both are easily accomplished with nothing more than a variable speed drill clamped to a work bench and a file (although I use a lathe). I shoot exactly the same loads in both guns and achieve idenitical results. I know you like black powder, but I use light charges of smokeless powder. My .45-70 Danish produced a 2.344 inch aggregate for 5 measured 5-shot groups at 100 yards. The best group was 2.11 and the worst was 2.735. My uncut Danish produced a 2.591 inch aggregate for 5 measured 5-shot groups at 100 yards. The best group was 1.569 and the worst was 3.062. The 45-70 load was 13.4 grains of Unique under a Lee 450-grain cast bullet (986 fps); and the Danish load was 13.4 grains of Unique under an RCBS 425-grain gas check bullet (1093 fps). I have won money with both rifles in our local club's "cowboy silhouette" style matches (we shoot out to 200 yards offhand and allow the single shot cartridge guns to shoot with the cowboy lever actions). As you can see, my results parallel MAG's. Sorry for this to have been so windy, but I didn't want Curator to have any problems shooting his Danish. I love both of mine.



    mag
    Posted - 03/31/2004 : 8:04:57 PM
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    Originally posted by eric
    If your rifle has index marks and a crown on the top of the barrel/receiver junction, it was probably reamed to accept the 11.7x56mm (not 51mm) cartridge when it was converted from rim fire to center fire. You can get a sample of the brass from Buffalo Arms and they will exchange/credit you for the shorter stuff if you haven't shot it yet (the 51mm brass will work - just loose a little accuracy).

    I highly reccomend the Lee 405 HB bullet as it casts a little oversize and most of the Danish rifles slug around .462 - .465.

    With that bullet cast 20-1 and unsized, I get great groups with the starting "trapdoor" 45-70 loads of H4198 for 400 grain cast bullets. I also use it (no wad) with a full case of FFg - almost as accurate - need to try a properly sized flat base bullet so I can use a wad and see.

    One note is the Danish rifles have a slow twist and won't stabilize bullets much heavier/longer than 400-450 grains.

    I use 45-70 dies and just barely resize the case mouth (decap seperately).

    Mine was converted with a globe front and nice tang sight when I got it - fantastic shooting rifle.
    What case do you use to make a 11.7x56mm ? All the Centerfire converted 11.7mm's I have seen have been in 51mm.
    And as far as using 348 win cases to make 11.7x51mm Danish, I think the other guy is just confused on what round we are talking about. mag



    tbaus
    Posted - 04/02/2004 : 12:38:35 AM
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    Hi Guys.. The formed brass I bought from Buffalo Arms for my Danish 11.7x51R is formed from .348 Winchester brass. Funny thing.. of the twenty pieces of brass I got, only about 6 were able to be fired without doing something to the rim are of the brass. When I contacted Buffalo arms to tell them I was having trouble getting the brass to fit my chamber, they told me it must be my rifle. I took a little off each rim in diameter and thickness and finally got all 20 rounds to shoot. It is easy enough to shorten 45-70 brass and fire form it, but I thought buying properly formed brass was the way to start, thus the formed brass from Buffalo Arms. It is formed from .348 and is headstamped so. Good shootin'...



    dgv2
    Posted - 04/02/2004 : 12:13:32 PM
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    Tbaus, I haven't used any of the Buffalo brass. Does it look like they swaged it down or lathe turned it down to go in the Danish 11.7 chamber? I'm curious as it seems to me that turning it down .04 inch would really weaken the brass at the base and swaging it down .04 inch would be really tough. See you at the range!



    tbaus
    Posted - 04/02/2004 : 10:36:23 PM
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    It doesn't appear to be turned in any way, at all. ( e.g. no lathe work) It appears to be swaged. I am pretty sure the problem area I had with mine is the rim itself and the area just in front of the rim. I made the mistake of priming, putting powder and seating a bullet in all the brass prior to attempting to see if they would chamber. I played hell getting them all to finally shoot. It is funny, but if I rotated some of the rounds, I could get them to chamber. ( get the rolling block to close).. Buffalo told me it was my chamber. After thinking about that a little while, I realized it couldn't be my chamber if the rounds were completely concentric. If they were, rotating the rounds would have made no difference. It was such a pain in the butt, I haven't reloaded the brass since shooting. I did take a few 45-70 pieces of brass,cut them down to proper length,loaded them mildly and fireformed them. I then loaded them to normal specs and shot them again, without any problems. Since I don't have the proper dies and dies cost a fortune, I don't resize the brass. I use 45-70 dies to seat the bullet. Someday I hope to fall into the proper dies at a reasonable price... ( yeah, yeah, I know .. and gas will be a buck a gallon next week ) Good shootin'...



    mag
    Posted - 04/02/2004 : 11:47:54 PM
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    What is the case head diameter on you cases? The largest of Mine [ fired ] are .508. I just do not see how they are swagging down the .545 348win cases to that. Mine made from 45/70 only swell .005 [ to .508 ] per side after firing, and some have 10 reloads on them. I just neck size my fired cases with a 45/70 die and leave the slight swell alone. By the way how did it shoot? mag



    John Sukey
    Posted - 04/04/2004 : 10:32:41 PM
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    DGV2. If 348 Winchester brass won't fit, the headstamps on the brass I have been shooting in My Danish rolling block must be forgeries.



    dgv2
    Posted - 04/05/2004 : 12:43:09 PM
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    John, Please see my most recent response on this. Probably nothing is impossible if you work hard enough at it. I don't think making 11.7 Danish out of .348 is impossible, but I do think it is more difficult than making it out of .45-70, which is almost a perfect fit right out of the box. I'm sure Buffalo has their reasons for doing it the way they do, but lathe turning .04 inch off the base of a .348 case does not appear to me to be the easiest way to feed your Danish 11.7. I'm only speaking as to what works for me. See you at the range!



    tbaus
    Posted - 04/05/2004 : 6:14:38 PM
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    Mag, I just measured about 10 rounds. The case head diameter is 5.13". Remember now, I had to take a little off the case heads to get them to chamber and fire. Those measured were fired rounds. I also measured a case head on a once fired 45-70 chambered and fired in the Dane. It measures 5.01". I suspect it is not fully formed to the chamber yet. Good shootin'...



    Curator
    Posted - 04/05/2004 : 7:06:57 PM
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    The Buffaloarms 11.7X51R cases I have are indeed made from .348 Winchester and measure .520 across the head about .10 over the rim. Yes, original .348 brass measures .540 +or- .003. It appears as though the cases have the body swaged down, not turned. They also make .43 Spanish brass the same way except with these they also alter the rim/head to create a .084 rim thickness.

    I fired the Dane .45 yesterday using these cases and the Lee 405 grain hollow base bullet made from 1 in 30 tin/lead, seated out to touch the lands when chambered. The load was 23 grains of IMR4759, and a 1/8 card wad under the bullet. I used a 50/50 mix of beeswax/crisco for lube (it takes a lot of lube to fill the grooves on this slug!) Except for hitting about 18" high at 100 yards, it shot great! 5 shot groups were 3-4 inches, and that was using the original sights. I suspect a vernier rear sight and an improved front post could tighten these up a bit. Thanks to all of you for all the good information and steering me right!



    eric
    Posted - 04/06/2004 : 06:42:14 AM
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    Buffalo Arms offers 11.7x51 and 11.7x56 brass formed from 348 Winchester (straightened, turned, etc.) - much better solution than using 45-70 brass although folks will argue this point - my beef with 45-70 is that the under sized brass ends up egg shaped when you fire it (off center rim because it is laying on the bottom of the chamber). You can wrap it with tape, etc. to partially avoid this but I would rather spring for the good brass - it lasts forever.

    As for the 51 vs 56 mm - every centerfire conversion I have run into will accept the 56mm brass (they will also accept the 51mm brass but it is short - see how far out you can seat the bullets in the 51mm brass - a LONG way - or buy 1 piece of the 56mm and see if it fits in your rifle). As I said, if the rifle has index marks on the receiver/barrel and a crown on the top near the receiver ring it will probably take the 56mm.



    mag
    Posted - 04/07/2004 : 12:11:35 AM
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    Mine will not take a 56mm long case at all. An uncut 45/70 is only 53mm long and is too long for my rifle. As far as the .348 case goes, if it comes from Buffalo with a .520 case head it will not fit in any of my rifles. The largest of mine is only .508. The little swell I get in my fireformed 45/70 cases is not a problem as I just neck size the formed cases and leave the swell alone. I am getting 2.5 inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards so I do not think there is a problem with the off center swell as far as accuracy goes. I have not lost a case yet, many cases have 10 + reloads on them. mag



    dgv2
    Posted - 04/07/2004 : 11:41:03 AM
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    I am pleased to see that Curator and tbaus are now both shooting their 11.7 Danish rifles successfully, even though they are using different basic brass to make their rounds. As they used to say, there is more than one way to skin a cat! See you at the range!



    tbaus
    Posted - 04/08/2004 : 12:22:22 AM
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    Just for a little more historic data. My rifle has the index marks and if memory serves a crown near the top of the reciever ring. I cannot use uncut 45/70 cases in mine. When I bought the rifle, I was woefully ignorant of it's chambering. The first thing that alerted me to the fact it was not a 45/70 was that I could not chamber an unloaded piece of 45/70 brass.



    AKMike
    Posted - 04/10/2004 : 7:58:11 PM
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    I think one thing that has not been mentioned is that the original Danish cartridge had a nominal rim diameter of about .580", whereas the 45-70 runs about .605". When the importer brought them into the
    US in the late 40's, most of the chambers were enlarged in the rim area to accept 45-70 brass and called 45-70, which they were not. The area in front of the rim is about .025" bigger in the Dane. But not all Rollers had the rim area of chamber enlarged. If yours is one not modified, you will have to turn down the rim diameter of your brass. I bought a Unimat lathe on E-bay, turned down the rims to .580", then sold the lathe on E-bay. Sheesh, what a project.

    I was not very happy with Buffalo Arms either, telling me something was wrong with my rifle. Yea, there was something wrong, it was original and correct! I have another now with that will accept the .348 rim size and so I may sell the first, but after all the bother, maybe not!



    Curator
    Posted - 04/10/2004 : 11:15:06 PM
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    I used cut-down .45-70 brass with one complete wrap of plastic electrical tape (as per Buckshot) before I got the brass from Buffaloarms. They worked OK but I didn't feel confident with the large bulge in the case head area after firing. Accuracy using the reformed .348 brass is enough better to make the little extra they cost well worth it. I have reloaded my reformed .348 brass twice since the initial firing without resizing; the Lee .459-405HB bullet is large enough for a good friction fit and still chamber easily. All the time I have thought the rifle was original and unaltered. If the chamber has been enlarged, perhaps it won't be such a sacriledge to mount a tang sight after all.



    tbaus
    Posted - 04/12/2004 : 10:01:09 AM
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    AKMike, I also had to turn down the rims on my .348 Winchester brass. Since I don't have a lathe, I had to do it by hand. It took quite a while. I am glad to know now it is because it is still in the original chambering. It took me a long time to figure out why the rounds would almost chamber, but not quite. Good shootin'...



    AKMike
    Posted - 04/16/2004 : 8:14:10 PM
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    [quote]AKMike, I also had to turn down the rims on my .348 Winchester brass. Since I don't have a lathe, I had to do it by hand. It took quite a while.[/quote

    I'll bet!

    And since the 348 brass has to be turned down in front of the rim anyway to fit the Dane chamber, it would be logical to turn the rim then.

    Of course, it would have been even simpler yet if the US had used the 6-years-older Danish cartridge dimensions for the 45-70!
    Last edited by Carcano; 10-29-2007 at 10:02 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default 11.6x40mm Danish Ammunition

    neatguns
    Gunboards Member



    USA
    61 Posts
    Posted - 11/30/2004 : 10:58:25 AM
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    I found a few boxes of this ammunition. It is marked 11.6x40 m. It was made in Denmark at the Otterup arsenal. Must be repacked as the dates are mixed 1930's-40's. What gun is this for. A Danish M1867 rolling block? It is shorter than the listed length for that cartridge. Is it low power target ammo or for a carbine? Or some impossible to find target gun?

    http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/ne...8_Mvc-081s.jpg
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    DocAV
    Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



    Australia
    3278 Posts
    Posted - 11/30/2004 : 10:41:56 PM
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    The ammo is standard Lead Bullet , Noncorrosive ("rust free") Smokeless loaded M1867 Ammo. The Danish "45" came in several case lengths, effectively Carbine, Rifle and MG (Nordenfeldt, I think)

    The ammo was still loaded even after WW II. I think its general use in the 20th century was for Training and Rifle Club use.
    It was quite common for European small nation Arsenals to have cases made up, say 1930, and then load them some years later.
    The packet label gives all the necessary info.

    Regards, Doc AV
    PS, it is for the Danish M1867 Rolling Block.




    saskone
    Gunboards Premium Member



    Canada
    137 Posts
    Posted - 12/16/2004 : 11:22:53 PM
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    This ammo was actually made from cutdown 8x56R Danish krag cases...hence all the various military headstamps seen. This is also why the cases are only 40mm in length. Bullets are not crimped in but only friction held. Apparently loaded in 1950's. Someone told me they were made for native seal hunters in Greenland who still owned the old rolling block rifles. I had 20 of these full sealed boxes all of which contained any number of different dated cases. Earliest was 1913 and latest I believe 1942. Otterup apparently had a large supply of surplus cases.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20041130105658_Mvc-081s.jpg  

  3. #3
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    Siskiyou County, California
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    Default

    I have a full box of these "seal" killing cartridges. They were indeed made from 8x58RD cases as they're cut off just south of the shoulder.

    Dutchman

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