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ADVICE - What the heck is it ......poss Schuetzen or Flobert Parlor Rifle ?

9K views 19 replies 10 participants last post by  musketshooter 
#1 · (Edited)
I just picked this up and was told it was a Schuetzen Rifle, Zimmerstutzen, Flobert, Parlor Rifle. It is gorgeous but ... has a crack in the stock by the "bat" logo.... and on top the metal but plate is missing a 1" chunk. I have tried to do my best in find out what this is as it has no marking except the bat logo and 5. at the end of the muzzle... Everything is functional, Set trigger , hammer, has a breach under the barrel about half way down the barrel that looks to accept a priming cap.

Can anyone tell me what i have and a value as i am planning on listing it but i am looking for guidance not trying to place a sale ad here, which i know is not permitted. Just want some advice so i dont look stupid when i go to sell.

Thanks for your assistance.











 
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#2 ·
I am not an expert but it looks somewhat "home made" to me - at least from the photos above. The reason I say that is that it looks like it has been overly refinished in the carven area which may or may not be original, the triggerguard assembly looks like a rough casting as does the buttplate (may be just the results of rust removal), the lockplate doesn't look like it fits properly and the "bat" plate just looks plain odd :) Better closeups would help.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Could well be home-made...or lesser grade, not like some of the really fine Schuetzens. The trigger guard is a casting, they all were, gunsmiths didn't make something like that, they bought them from somebody else who did the castings.

I'm interested in that barrel...it accepts a cap halfway down the length? And the muzzle...that's an extremely small caliber. It looks like it might be a sleeve inside a larger bore, for practicing in gallery shooting. That must be a barrel release on the bottom of the forestock, maybe it's a hooked-breech barrel?

The "bat" plate behind the lock bolt, that looks like a European style.

The wood has a lot of figure but it's varied and random, not like a premium stock.

Very interesting, wanting to hear what the knowledgeable people here have to say.
 
#5 ·
Schuetzen Rifle, Zimmerstutzen, Flobert, Parlor Rifle.

OK - Schuetzen is just German for "shooting". Came to be a a term of art for a particular type of taget shootig, involving off-hand shooting, with rather specialized single-shot breech-loaders.

Zimmerstutzen is German for "Room rifle" - gun intended for indoor shooting (or in the garden behind the house, eh?).

Flobert was a person, developed one of the earliest self-contained cartridges, the BB Cap, later CB cap and immediate parent of the rim-fire. BB Cap (Bulleted Breech Cap) was essentially a round ball in a short rimfire case with primer only propellant. CB Cap (Conical Builleted Cap) was about the same thing except with a conical bullet and a little bit of propellant (initially black powder) - a more powerful BB Cap. These preceeded the various rimfire cartridges in introduction. There were a number of Flobert cartridges over the years, but the commonest (and i'd say most useful) are .22s. There were also guns made by Flobert using his cartridges

Parlor Rifle is what an English speaker would call a Zimmerstutzen.

This one has a Schuetzen-stye stock and looks to me to be likely chambered for one of the Flobert rounds, so falls into the Zimmerstutzen or Parlor Rifle class (essentially same thing by different names). I have seen some with the loading arrangements you describe, from Germany, Austria, and Belgium.

Unless very fine, they aren't worth a lot, but are neat little guns. The purpose they served has pretty well been taken over by modern air rifles.
 
#6 ·
Clyde, what's going on with that barrel, about halfway down? Gilroyguns said it looked like it would accept a priming cap? How was it loaded? Don't mean to belabor the point, just curious.
 
#11 ·
It has, as Tac said, a long FP that strikes a cartridge rim (I suspect Terry is right about it being a 4mm Flobert) that is chambered up front, much nearer the muzze than the breech. A 4mm istead of a 22 BB Cap, essential. Don't think it is Quackenbush, suspect it is Belgian, Guild gun probably.
 
#8 ·
That sure is odd. Assuming that it's a Flobert rimfire-type cartridge, how would it be loaded at that point in the barrel? Is there a chamber there in which the round is inserted and some sort of block to hold it in place? Does the hammer force some sort of extension that far forward to hit the cartridge rim or base? What do those two screws do and what is that apparent filled differently-colored dovetail? Questions, questions :)
 
#9 ·
If you look VERY carefully at the 'lock' you'll see that it has an extension to the hammer that actuates the firing pin in the chamber located halfway down the barrel. This parlour rifle is a 4mm Flobert calibre toy for after-dinner shooting in the gentleman's retiring room or on a garden terrace.

tac
 
#13 ·
There may be. Just have to look and see. If it is Belgian, they WILL be present. It could also be German, produced by a maker who didn't put his name on it. If so, there will German proofs somewhere.The more I look at it, the more it reminds me of one Herb Wills had, which he picked up in Germany.
 
#15 ·
I just saw this thread and realized that is some type 4mm zimmershutzen (spelling ?). I believe the idea was to use a small 4mm rimfire cartridge that went into a chamber that is halfway up the barrel. They were used for indoor target shooting -- yours is a bit less than I've seen for something like a Zimmerman rifle. The little cartridge in the picture next to a 22lr cartridge is what is used -- I believe. Not having the rifle in hand all I can say is it looks to be a lighter version of the Zimmerman.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Actually I'm not sure about the value since I believe there is a part missing at that opening in the midsection of the barrel. What is missing is the chamber and firing mechanism. This type of shuetzen rifle had a strange setup where the actual rifled barrel was very short and started right at that opening at the underside of the barrel. Go to this url http://www.pbase.com/halp/zimmerstutzen for a bunch of pictures of a fancy rifle and starting at the middle of the second row of pictures, shows the action with the firing device, the barrel muzzle, etc. That "action" is missing from your rifle but if you could just find a collector of these rifles you might be able to sell.
 
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