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My first imperial find. 1912

7K views 21 replies 8 participants last post by  DK PHILLIPS In Memoriam 
#1 · (Edited)
Got this 1912 tula. Everything matches except for cylinder. Although cylinder also hammer marked bluing on it a bit of. Single action only.
Is it more valuable in single action? As opposed to being double action as well?
How rare are 1912 revolvers overall?
Comments welcome
Regards
D76
 

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#4 ·
That looks to be the original finish and it has the correct single-action hammer so yes, it is very much more scarce than the double-action version and probably worth considerably more, especially as it appears to never have been refinished. The Soviets converted practically all of the single-action revolvers to double action. They also dispensed with that sight and used a ramp front sight so yours appears to be in it's original 1912 configuration. A very good find.
 
#9 ·
Many years ago I had a Russian friend (he'd be about 120 years old now if he were still alive) who was interned outside Constantinople after the last of the Whites were driven out of the Crimea. He made extra money by buying up the pistols from his fellow internees, taking them into the city and selling them on the black market. When he'd made enough, he boarded a steamer for France.

I suspect that pistol has been in the middle east since it was practically new - the 1920s in any case - and thus was never in the Soviet Union. That would explain why it never had any of the later Soviet modifications
 
#10 ·
When I visited Israel in 2012, I was surprised to find out the Czarist Russian Government constructed a lot of churches, monasteries, and buildings for its pilgrims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Compound

When the Bolsheviks took over, the pilgrims and money stopped, so its entirely possible any military stationed there either sold their equipment to get a ticket home, or simply stayed in-country hoping nobody would come looking for them. Also, it seems the British simply took over the buildings, and later the Israelis from them.

------------

So back to the original question: How does one become a gun collector in Israel? I get that a lot of people are armed in their line of work, and that permits are required for civilians to be armed. But, well, I can remember my mentor saying "Israel has guns, but they don't have a gun culture"

Yet here you are.
 
#12 ·
Israel doesn't have the same milsurp culture we have here. I ran a regional kibbutz armory back in the 1980s, and did a bit of up-trading with a few collectors I knew, but it was all fairly quiet dealings. No gunshows or re-enactor groups, and gunshops mainly handle modern defensive firearms. As my chaver above mentioned, private ownership of guns is actually not that common in Israel, but it isn't too hard to get issued a pistol in a number of occupations. I was able to issue licenses and guns to anyone in my area, and we also had a regional high school that had its own armory...as do many schools. I had my choice of some pretty neat milsurps to play with and kept a few at home with me. Most of the time I personally kept a Hi-Power, 'Eagle' Radom, Artillery Luger, and a sweet E. German AKM. Ah, the good old days.
 
#14 ·
I highly recommend taking a Holy Land tour. I went on a tour specifically to entice people to emigrate, so they made it a point to show off a little bit of everything. The downside is with the exception of Jerusalem, you don't spend a lot of time in any given place. Though I did enjoy the road trip part of the tour with overnights in Kibbutz Lavi, Haifa, and Netanya. Its one thing to read about Israel, its another to actually go and visit.


I live in Haifa part time. My permanent address is on territories that Israel developed for political reasons or as some may say occupied. If one lives on that piece of land one can own what ever firearm they desire or as many as they desire. All you need to have is clear bill of mental health and store firearms in acceptable conditions that prevent unauthorized access to them.
As for Haifa or any other big city in Israel you are not allowed ownership of firearms unless you jump through lots of red tape or prove that you require carry permit. Its all depends on what you do for living etc.
Russian influence is all over Israel. 95% of all visitors to Israel are from former Ussr republics. All hotels have russian stuff. Native russian speakers compose roughly 40% of population. So Israel can be considered as one of Russian states that has shown Moscow a middle finger, but not completely got rid of russian mentality. Mixed culture and pro western views make it difficult in owning guns in Israel, but majority of gun owners have proper training and authorities know that it each person who has firearms can be prosecuted for improper use . So people behave accordingly
The tour group I was in had an excursion to the territories, particularly Hebron, and the others on the tour (who lived their lives in Brooklyn) were amazed people walked around armed. It was also an eye-opener to see rather nice developments/subdiviisons called "settlements" cheek-to-jowl with Palestinian villages.

One of the things I had never heard of before this tour were "Development Towns" where the Israeli Government tried to build up some urban areas where the locals would not have to drive hours to Jerusalem or the coast for things. Apparently they were not doing too well (because if people could afford to live in Jerusalem, they moved to Jerusalem) until the Russian emigration began in earnest, and they revitalized the development towns. The one we stopped in, with the exception of the Hebrew writing, could have very easily been mistaken for an American suburb/exurb.

Haifa and the area around it was flippin' GORGEOUS! Stayed at the Dan Panorama, nice walkable downtown. When the tour bus was going to Mount Carmel, the houses I saw reminded me A LOT of California. It was a shame we got there in the evening and didn't even stay a full day.


Israel doesn't have the same milsurp culture we have here. I ran a regional kibbutz armory back in the 1980s, and did a bit of up-trading with a few collectors I knew, but it was all fairly quiet dealings. No gunshows or re-enactor groups, and gunshops mainly handle modern defensive firearms. As my chaver above mentioned, private ownership of guns is actually not that common in Israel, but it isn't too hard to get issued a pistol in a number of occupations. I was able to issue licenses and guns to anyone in my area, and we also had a regional high school that had its own armory...as do many schools. I had my choice of some pretty neat milsurps to play with and kept a few at home with me. Most of the time I personally kept a Hi-Power, 'Eagle' Radom, Artillery Luger, and a sweet E. German AKM. Ah, the good old days.
Like it was explained to me "Israel has guns, but not a gun culture", not only did I never see a single gun shop, I only saw one military surplus store (on Ben Yehuda Street in Jerusalem of all places). I also noticed that Israel didn't have much of a "car culture" either; all the interesting cars I saw were in the territories (and Bethlehem).

From what I saw in Jerusalem, anyone with a public-facing job (doorman, restaurant host, etc) was armed, and apparently they switched off and carried the "work gun" at the Prima Kings where I was staying.

Even without the requisite collecting culture, it still sounds like a lot of cool stuff ends up in Israel.
 
#15 ·
Between the few collectors I knew, museums, and my visits to other area armories, I was constantly amazed at the scope and variety of small arms I saw. Just about anything that was made in Europe and America, from the 1880s to modern times, from Winchesters to Werndls, was purchased and smuggled to pre-state Israel and for use in the War of Independence.
I used to stop into Zinyuk's Gun Shop, in Haifa. Not sure if it still exists.
 
#16 ·
I think that might be a bit of an answer as to the lack of a gun collecting culture: Unlike the US, there have probably never been formal distribution channels for old milsurps. While you saw an amazing diversity of stuff, there just wasn't that much and it was scattered. I would imagine its the same for vintage cars.

It interesting to see the stuff that comes to the U.S. in terms of modern firearms that have passed through Israel.

But looping it back to the main subject, I still speculate that come 1917, the Russian military/government personnel that happened to find themselves in the Holy Land either ended up selling what they could to get home, or decided to go native and hope nobody came looking for them.

Also have to appreciate how small a world it is that Gunboards has two members who came from Haifa.

p.s. Was not able to find Zinyuk's Gun Shop using Google, I guess I would have to search in Hebrew.
 
#18 ·
How Russian revolver made his way to Israel..?
And if You are in Israel, Comrade,- maybe You can find some info about this rifle https://photobucket.com/gallery/user/Lavriccat/media/bWVkaWFJZDozMzIwMDI=/?ref=
It's .22 LR Mauser, single shot, made in Belgium (1948) presumably to familiarize Israelis with Mauser with unexpansive .22 LR ammo.
Any info. How many got in Holy Land, how many left, ets....
 
#19 ·
Sorry,mister but you have to do your own research on Mauser rifles. What does it have to do with M1895 Nagant revolvers? this thread is about M1895 Not some Mauser 22 rifle.
How Russian revolver made his way to Israel..?
And if You are in Israel, Comrade,- maybe You can find some info about this rifle https://photobucket.com/gallery/user/Lavriccat/media/bWVkaWFJZDozMzIwMDI=/?ref=
It's .22 LR Mauser, single shot, made in Belgium (1948) presumably to familiarize Israelis with Mauser with unexpansive .22 LR ammo.
Any info. How many got in Holy Land, how many left, ets....
 
#22 ·
Extremely nice org. Pistol.. thanks for sharing!



Lavric: you can go to small rifle 22 forum or Mauser rifle theirs here on the boards...!
i use to get confused with the Russian rifle to pistol similar names..no problems..with asking for directions..we all get lost at times!
no problem the sites I suggested are very friendly helpful bunch ..God bless your efforts amen<><Dan
(nice rifle!)
 
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