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Chilean DWM M1907 Short Rifle and Brazilian Carbines

11K views 25 replies 10 participants last post by  GOVTMOD 
#1 · (Edited)
See post #20 for latest information.

Wednesday I picked up my latest Mauser from my transfer dealer. It was purchased from the Gunboards trader. If the seller wishes to identify himself, he may choose to post in this thread. He bought the rifle two years ago and told me it came from the SAMCO selloff. He thought it might have been a Brazilian trials carbine.

As identified from the 1911 ALFA catalog, this is a DWM M1907 carbine for sale to anyone. I was lucky to find a 1972 reprint of the 1911 catalog. I think my carbine was sold to Chile because it (1) has a Chilean M1912 short rifle bolt, (2) has an almost invisible SAMCO import mark, and (3) the SAMCO final inventory list had no Brazilian rifles (it did have many Chilean, including M1912 short rifles). The SAMCO list did not show this carbine.

Also, the book Rifles of the World by John Walter shows Chile buying "small numbers" of DWM M1904 "standard 1898 pattern export Mauser" rifles with front band altered to accept M1895 bayonet. They could have bought M1907 carbines along with those. If it was a "trials" carbine, there was a long gap before the M1935 Chilean carbines but maybe WWI just got in the way. It could possibly be that some Chilean General just wanted a single carbine.

The ALFA catalog shows the Brazilian contract carbine as M1904 (top of page, labeled as Brazilian) and my carbine as M1907 (bottom of page). Other books incorrectly show the Brazilian carbines as M1907. It seems doubtful that a M1907 carbine (mine) would be a trials weapon for a later Brazilian contract carbine that ALFA calls M1904.

The Carbines for Collectors website says about Brazil: "
The Modelo 1907 Mauser" (almost certainly long rifles - I have one) "in 7x57mm was bought in small numbers from Oberndorf as were trial numbers of competing designs such as the Haenel in 7x57mm. In 1908, 7x57mm Modelo 1908 was adopted on a large scale as standard. It was made as a long rifle and as a 21" carbine which had a smaller rear sight with scaled down range on the tangent sight leaf." Before that Brazil bought M1894 carbines and after that they bought FN1922 carbines.

My carbine has no national markings or model number markings. It has DWM on the siderail and the receiver has a style of commercial proof that was not used after 1912. It is matching except for the bolt and was missing the lock screws until I replaced them. The design is distinctive with a short handguard, no bayonet lug, and no cleaning rod with a flat metal plate at the front of the front band. It's nice to get a new rifle and not have to go hunting a bayonet/scabbard/frog and cleaning rod. I will put a sling on it.

My best guess is that it was purchased by Chile, perhaps as a trials carbine or maybe for police use. The serial number is 252 but that does not indicate how many Chile might have purchased because this is an off-the-shelf gun. I wonder where the other 251 carbines went? So far it seems to be the only one known of the type. If anyone has more information on this carbine or even guesses, please post.

As a summary, we know the type was for sale to anyone, we know it is 7mm, we know it came from SAMCO, and we know SAMCO imported a lot of guns from Chile and Argentina but none from Brazil. And we know it has a Chilean bolt.

The photos below are two years old. I will take more when I get a chance.

Sneak preview: I am waiting for delivery of a Paraguayan M1907 long rifle (not Turk) with Lange sight.
 

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#2 ·
Very interesting find Bill! I wonder if any DWM records showing the s/n ranges, or numbers purchased of any Chilean, or Brazilian trials rifles might be located. As you also mention, the s/n may just be a generic DWM number for that model and not correlate to a contract per say for such a small purchase.
 
#3 ·
This was my old rifle, I really thought it was Brazilian after a lot of research but Bill has made some interesting points about the Chilean origin and I would agree with that. This rifle was indeed secured in the SAMCO selloff as part of an "oddlot" which our great sponsor Allen at Allen's Armory secured through Century, he sold it to me. To my knowledge, it is the only rifle of this type SAMCO had in its inventory. It's possible the owners kept some nicer ones in personal collections.

Also, underneath the stock you will find rich rust bluing, a factory commercial DWM stamp on the underside of the barrel, and the receiver in the white. The rifle was never refinished.
 
#6 ·
Thanks for all comments. I just re-read the Carbines for Collectors article. I noticed that while neither the M1904 Brazilian police crested carbine nor my mystery M1907 carbine were mentioned in the article, photos of both from the 1911 ALFA catalog were included at the end. I think, because the M1904 carbines were police crested, that C for C made an error in labeling the M1907 carbine photo "Carbine in 7mm used by Federal Police". That suggests the M1904 carbine was Army used. I think C for C found the two catalog photos on the same page and they assumed both were Brazilian used. In the catalog the M1904 (known to be police crested) was labeled Brazilian and the M1907 was presented as generic. It may be that the incorrect labeling of the M1904 carbine as M1907 in the book Mauser Military Rifles of the World contributed to the confusion.
 
#8 ·
#9 · (Edited)
The confusion deepens. The post at www.ar15.com shows a photo of page 65 in the book Mauser Military Rifles of the World Fifth Edition. That photo is below.

The 1911 ALFA catalog shows two carbines, a M1904 labeled as Brazilian and an off-the-shelf M1907. They have different features.

The one shown in Mauser Military Rifles of the World Fifth Edition, on careful examination of the two photos reveals a third carbine, different from the other two. The third MMRW carbine has a Brazilian police crest marked M1907. The handguard is like the ALFA M1904 but the front band (and apparent lack of cleaning rod) is like the ALFA M1907. The screw-clamping rear band, said to have a sling swivel (not visible in photo) is different from both the ALFA M1904 and M1907. It shows a saddle ring under the rear of the stock (different from both the ALFA M1904 and M1907) and I question whether or not it has a front swivel at all. MMRW says it has a swivel on the front band and an M1895 bayonet lug on the bottom of the front band which does not appear in the photo.

If you removed the rear band, saddle ring, and handguard, and replaced them with different parts, then the MMRW M1907 carbine would be the same as the ALFA M1907.

If you removed the front and rear bands, band springs, and saddle ring, replaced them with different parts and added a cleaning rod, the MMRW M1907 carbine would be the same as the ALFA Brazilian M1904.

I conclude that there were in fact two models of carbines sold to Brazil.

1. The MMRW M1907 in quantity as a marked police carbine

2. The ALFA M1904 in quantity as an artillery carbine

Then there was also the generic off-the-shelf ALFA M1907 (mine), at least one of which was probably sold to Chile. It appears to be designed as a police carbine but somewhat different from the MMRW M1907 Brazilian police carbine.

My statement in a previous post that MMRW had incorrectly labeled the pictured carbine as M1907 was wrong. The crest is clearly marked M1907. It seems that DMW would not duplicate model numbers within one country of use, but had no problem in duplicating model numbers of rifles/carbines (which were in fact different) between different countries of use or off-the-shelf models.

I suppose, to be correct, we should always say "M1907 Brazilian carbine", or "M1907 ALFA (DWM) carbine", or "M1909 Peruvian long rifle", or "M1909 Argentine long rifle".
 

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#10 ·
Here's where my research differs. All commercial rifles, whether domestic or export are so proofed. The military contracts are all designed, crested and specifically proofed for said country. Whether police or military. The ALFA carbine is completely unrelated IMO.

To your point, this thing should be called a 1907 ALFA carbine

The proofing nomenclature on this rifle is exactly the same as that on my 1912 Mauser Oberndorf sporter action completed in Suhl by private gunsmith
 
#11 ·
Or "M1907 ALFA (DWM) carbine". It was a DWM design, commercially proofed, and presumably sold off-the-shelf by ALFA to whatever military, police, or civilian buyers wanted to order it. It could also have been sold (maybe in trials small quantity) by DWM directly to, say, Chile. Your point is well taken that the commercial proof (pre-1913) is highly unusual on a military type firearm.

I wonder, was ALFA in the habit of marking the guns they sold "ALFA"?

This one carbine is well traveled: DWM (maybe to ALFA) to (maybe) Chile to SAMCO to Century to Allen's Armory to brcampbe to geladen.
 
#13 ·
But the bottom sling arrangement would be appropriate for either a police or artillery carbine (I would think an artillery carbine would have a cleaning rod like the ALFA M1904 Brazilian carbine). I suppose it is just a generic military style carbine. The handguard is especially interesting.

Every country seems to have a different definition for carbine, some based only on barrel length.
 
#16 ·
Yes, it has a spring clip like the longer handguard does. There is no connection between the rear sight and the handguard.

I see the user advantage in the longer handguard but the shorter one works. You just have to remember to grip a hot rifle in front of the rear sight and not behind (with the short handguard). The G98 and K98k handguard is a better arrangement; with those you dispense with the problematic spring clip. The Turks had a better idea yet with a long handguard and a groove in the front face of the receiver ring.

On this carbine the two handguard clip screws are missing. The clip was glued to the handguard but is no longer. I have a couple of correct screws I will install using glue in the screw holes and between the clip and the handguard. That has worked for me in the past.

I was amazed that I could depress the bottom band spring with my thumb and fairly easily slide the rear band forward of the handguard. This on a 100+ year old carbine!! It worked just like it is supposed to - but seldom does.
 
#17 ·
At the same time as the 1907 short rifle, Chile also got either complete M1895 SR with the new 1904/07 rear sight, or got replacement barrels with the new sight, or just got the sights alone to upgrade to 140 grain Spitzer 7mm cartridges.

I have a Chilean DWM M95 SR with the M04/07 rear short sight.
I have not had it out of the stock to fully inspect the underneath for markings.
Just some added info of the first decade of the 1900s.
Doc AV
 
#18 ·
My apologies to the participants in the thread, it has taken me a couple days to get this posted up.

A couple of notes.

Alfa did mark many of their products and specifically firearms. Typically from what I have seen, there is no real rhyme or reason, and I suspect it varied depending on where and WHO they came from. In my personal collection I have an Alfa that was a very high end gun from their catalog, it is roll marked ALFA. I have yet to see a "military" type rifle bearing any markings from ALFA and would suspect there are none. They were simply the retailer, whether they came from Mauser, DWM, or elsewhere was for the most part irrelevant.

The Chilean connection is possible, but I would not necessarily put a lot of stock into it. The Chilean bolt is a bit of a red herring if you will. Century puts them in anything that needs a bolt. I have gotten Argentine, Brazilian, and Czech rifles with Chilean 1912 bolts. Last I was up there they still had at least one, if not multiple crates of Chilean bolts left.

Mr. Speed also send some notes:

I saw talks on site about DWM so called Brazil or Chile carbine . Looking at the DWM sales the first dealings with Brazil occured in 1908 when 50,000 rifles and 10,000 Carbines were sold to Brazil, Such examples would have had Brazil Crests on ring. and were in 7mm. The only mention of Chile is in 1912 and noted in charts on DWM that shows names of lands and arms types or Models DWM made etc. My DWM sales records only go to 1911 when the huge brazil Contract for 100,000 rifles . This contract brought the work load to DWM to maximum up until start of WW1. Regards, Jon


Mauser sold the first lot of 2000 Carbines in 1907 to Brazil.These rifles were designated as Model 1907 and used Intermediate actions. in 7mm.

1. Glass Plate image for carbine in Mauser reference collection for Brazil. On the stock on this carbine is a Brazil type crest with Model Designation 1907 which you can juts see when you blow up image.Note lack of small bayonet on bottom of front band. This was most likely a sample example

2. 2nd Brazil 1907 Carbine with Bayonet. mount bottom of front band with long bayonet also muster example

Mauser and DWM shared most model features . DWM only came on LIne with Brazil rifles and 10,000 carbines in 1908 so same style carbines etc.All of these would have crests on ring etc. The Mauser made 1907 carbine has Handguard coming over rear sight while the DWM has Short Handguard that stops in front of rear sight.DWM was free to change such minor features when ever inventory parts were in stock !

Its possible DWM sent of some muster examples of carbines to other lands like Chile in 1912 but because they were busy with major contracts had little interest in more small deals
. As far as model designations in old catalogs they had many errors in with this issue and a model first made in one year could pop up again in a later period and still be designated in the older date etx. Much like the China models and others.

Mauser firm yearly report to board sales listing for 1907 showing in yellow marked Sales of 2000 Carbines. Regards, Jon Speed
 
#19 · (Edited)
Thanks for that valuable information. We now know that Mauser sold 2,000 Brazilian M1907 carbines to Brazil in 1907. That would be the carbine in the first photo above (with cleaning rod) and in the photo in MMRW (missing cleaning rod).

We also now know that Century had extra Chilean M1912 bolts which they used to complete rifles which were missing bolts. So probably either Century, or SAMCO, or Chile put the Chilean bolt in my ALFA DWM M1907 carbine. We simply do not know who put the M1912 bolt in it.

And we now have a new carbine in the second photo above that is the same as the M1907 Brazilian M1907 carbine except that it has a bayonet lug. Call that one the Brazilian M1907 Type II carbine; it was almost certainly a one of a kind sample with a different front band.

So, here's what we have to date:
1. ALFA DWM M1907 carbine (s/n 252) with short handguard, no cleaning rod, etc., the subject carbine of this thread and in the ALFA 1911 catalog
2. Brazilian M1907 carbine (2,000 made) with long handguard, saddle ring, cleaning rod, etc., in MMRW and in the first photo above
3. Brazilian M1907 Type II carbine (1 made?) same as #2 but with different front band having bayonet lug in the second photo above
4. ALFA Brazilian M1904 (artillery?) carbine (unknown quantity) with long handguard, H band, bayonet lug, lower sling swivels, etc., in the ALFA 1911 catalog

Numbers 2 and 3 above were made by Mauser Orberndorf, while the subject ALFA DWM M1907 carbine (number 1) was made by DWM. It does not seem likely that the subject carbine would then be a Brazilian M1907 Type III carbine. Plus the s/n on the subject carbine indicates they were made in some quantity.

Number 4 above was probably a contract overrun in small quantity to appear in the ALFA 1911 catalog and be labeled as Brazilian. The contract it came from may have been the 10,000 carbines sold by DWM to Brazil in 1908.

It is so far looking like Brazil bought 2,000 police carbines from Mauser in 1907 and 10,000 artillery carbines from DWM in 1908. The overrun of the artillery carbines was sold by ALFA labeled Brazilian M1904 carbine. The subject ALFA DWM M1907 carbine was a separate issue, made by DWM with commercial proofing and sold by ALFA to anyone who wanted it (possibly including Chile). Chile did buy a small quantity of M1904 long rifles from DWM and the subject carbine may have been included in that order. It could be that ALFA bought 250 carbines from DWM and Chile bought two (s/n 251 and 252) or more. Again, we simply do not know.

Brazil later determined that they needed more carbines which after WWI they bought from FN as the FN1922 carbine. They still had the M1894 carbines.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I just discovered something about my M1907 DWM "carbine". It is not a carbine but rather a short rifle.

The 1911 ALFA catalog showed a "Mauser M1904 Brazilian Cavalry Carbine" and a "Mauser M1907 Repeating Carbine" (mine). Of course both are "repeaters". Neither had a barrel length given. A careful examination of the photos revealed the distance between barrel bands was greater on mine than on the M1904 Brazilian, even though my rear band was farther forward than on the Brazilian.

Barrel Lengths (my examples)

Chilean M1895 Carbine - 18"
ZAR M1896 (same as M1893) Carbine - 18"

Chilean M1895 Short Rifle - 22"
Colombian (same as Chilean) M1912 Short Rifle - 22"

My DWM M1907 Short Rifle - 22"

It seems that 18" carbines were wanted for cavalry and 22" short rifles were wanted for artillery and engineers.

It is known that Chile ordered a large quantity of M1895 carbines and short rifles (and long rifles). They later ordered a large quantity of M1912 short rifles (and long rifles).

Between the orders of M1895 and M1912 short rifles, Chile ordered a small quantity of M1904 "rifles" (certainly long rifles) for testing. It seems very
likely that they could also have ordered a small quantity of M1907 short rifles at the same time. They had ordered a large quantity of M1895 short rifles before and would order a large quantity of M1912 short rifles later.

The original clue that my M1907 short rifle might have been used by Chile is that it came with a M1912 Chilean short rifle (bent bolt handle) bolt.

Now, seeing that Chile bought M1895 short rifles, then bought M1904 test long rifles, then bought M1912 short rifles, it seems very possible that Chile may have ordered some M1907 short rifles for testing along with the M1904 long rifles. (M1904 and M1907 seem to have been used interchangeably in reference books - my so-called M1904 Brazilian long rifle is marked M1907 on the sidewall).

Since Brazil bought carbines in quantity, ALFA listed the M1904 carbine in the catalog as Brazilian.

Since Chile bought M1912 short rifles in quantity instead of the M1907, ALFA did not list the M1907 "carbine" (short rifle) as Chilean. They also did not list the M1907 as a short rifle nor give the barrel length because, I suspect, they found carbines easier to sell than short rifles.

There is no proof above, just additional suggestion that my M1907 short rifle was imported from Chile by SARCO (which did not import from Brazil).

My serial number is 252. It seems unlikely that a lot of these M1907 short rifles were made. Only one is known so far and the 1911 ALFA catalog is the only reference found. The 22" barrel length, pre-1913 commercial proofing, short handguard, rear sight with square cut front end, front sight guard, lack of bayonet lug, and lack of cleaning rod (and hole) are distinctive. Note the gun is not marked with a model designation; the "M1907" comes from the ALFA catalog.
 
#21 ·
I agree that these are scarce and likely attributed to Chile. I went to tne local gunshow yesterday to see if the FAMAE rep was there, he was not. He is usually there with his SAF post sample and he knows a ton about Chilean Army history. I will have to find his card.
 
#22 ·
"In the on going talks on Chile 95 Carbines I went through my Chile files and have great photos of SN B4998 and G6339 designated as Cav Carbines with saddle ring swivel on rear right side of butt stock both made by Loewe group. These have exact front end covered sight type and short tangent sights as talked about by Mr. Geladen on site. Regards, Jon Speed"
 
#23 ·
"In the on going talks on Chile 95 Carbines I went through my Chile files and have great photos of SN B4998 and G6339 designated as Cav Carbines with saddle ring swivel on rear right side of butt stock both made by Loewe group. These have exact front end covered sight type and short tangent sights as talked about by Mr. Geladen on site. Regards, Jon Speed"
Loewe/DWM had a wide variety of carbine designs and a lesser number of short rifle designs. The first question that arises in connection to the above would be "What are the barrel lengths, 18 inches or 22 inches?" The s/n suggest 18 inches.

The first photo shows the Chilean trio of carbine, short rifle, and long rifle. The other two photos are the M1895 Chilean carbine.
 

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#24 · (Edited)
I just stumbled onto this thread and have a question. According to MMROW 5th Colombia bought some 1904 DWMs that were supposedly the same as Brazilian 1907s. IIRC Ball doesn't say much more about them except something to the effect "See Brazil 1907", no mention of whether they were rifles, short rifles or carbines or mix thereof. Could this be one of those?

You mention the 1912 carbine bolt to indicate Chile but Colombia bought an identical gun too.


EDIT I changed the Colombian Model number.
 
#25 ·
The DWM/Mauser M1904 were an Improved version of the Gew98.
The 1904 was a "Commercial" ( off the shelf) design
Intermediate Receiver, Bolt firing pin and cocking piece longer than '98, Rear sight Tangent ( 1902 Patent), and Narrow Upper Band rather than "H" type..( see Siam and Vergueiro Bands) .
The Carbines had 1895 or Turkish Bayo. Bands, but without Lugs for Cavalry, with Lugs for Musketoons.
Brazil bought a small lot as their M1907 Carbines,
Off the shelf, but then in 1908, ordered the standard receiver Pattern in Long Rifle and Short Rifle versions. This was a " Brazilian" Contract, having In house Inspection and Proofing, not requiring Commercial German Proofing, as was required for
" off the shelf" rifles through German Wholesalers.

DocAV
 
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