Trapdoors!
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Thread: Trapdoors!

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    Default Trapdoors!

    Not all trapdoors were made in Springfield...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Trapdoors Group 1R.jpg  

    Trapdoors Group 2R.jpg  

    Trapdoors Group 3R.jpg  

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Thanks for sharing Nick

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    Impressive examples of an important era of transition in martial firearms and the overall blossoming of the industrial revolution worldwide. Thank you for another peek into your extensive and interesting collection.

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    That is a pretty neat selection! Who does "Trapdoor" the best of that bunch or are they just variations on a theme?

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    I think Berdan 1 (Model 1868) is the best trapdoor both mechanically and ballistically.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Berdan No1-5R.jpg  

    Fyodorov 5R.jpg  

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Ballistics OK but mechanically the Millbank-Amsler has my vote. But, would not Mont Storm derivatives be better. Most countries outside the US tend to use other descriptors rather than 'trapdoor'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by staffy View Post
    Ballistics OK but mechanically the Millbank-Amsler has my vote. But, would not Mont Storm derivatives be better.
    In Mont Storm the cartridge is loaded in the "trapdoor" itself, which serves as a cartridge chamber. The rest of the trapdoors have conventional loading, where the trapdoor is only a breech.

    Milbank-Amsler... I see nothing special in the design.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Milbank-Amsler 64-67 - 4.jpg  

    Milbank-Amsler 64-67 - 11.jpg  

    XL.jpg  

    Swiss Rimfire 1.jpg  

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Mont Storm from an old book, 1876:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails VI.jpg  

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Granted the Berdan 1 was a new design and most others modifications of earlier muzzle loaders. Still think the action, although transitional, is more pleasing mechanically.

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    Don't overlook the Spanish "Modelo 1867" Berdan trapdoor. Mine.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Plate 14.jpg  


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    That Spanish Modelo 1867 looks at first glance to be much like the US version. The sight looks like the sight on my Oviedo Rolling Block except flipped around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudy View Post
    That Spanish Modelo 1867 looks at first glance to be much like the US version. The sight looks like the sight on my Oviedo Rolling Block except flipped around.
    Yes, the design infringed on Erskin Allinís earlier patent, so it could not be made in the US. In a bit of deception, Berdan had the Remington company fabricate 30,000 breeches, which were shipped to Spain for use in converting muzzle loaders. Apparently Allin never got a Spanish patent.

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    An interesting and unusual piece to have. Superseded by the Rolling Block in Spanish Service I would assume?

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    Didn't the US Govt have to pay Berdan for patent infringements relating to the Trapdoor "extractor ejector device, Patent 88,436" incorporated in his Russian gun and used in the Springfield 1868 guns onwards. A reasonable royalty was to be paid - Settled at US$95,004.36.
    US Supreme Court - US v Berdan MFG Co (1894) - no 128 - Argued:Decided:March 4 1895.
    Would be interested to learn of any action involving the Allin conversions and Berdan's design regarding patents.

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    Does the Supreme Court have publicly accessible archives? That would be an interesting read!

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    thank you for sharing them with us.

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    Default Mont Storm metallic cartridge muskets

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    In Mont Storm the cartridge is loaded in the "trapdoor" itself, which serves as a cartridge chamber. The rest of the trapdoors have conventional loading, where the trapdoor is only a breech.
    While the chamber-loading Mont Storm was percussion, there was also a metallic cartridge version of this trapdoor. Its similar to the Albini-Braendlin, but was made in the U.S., based on the 1859 patent (15307) but in 1867. Shown here are two of mine (I have seen a third example only). The upper example is .58 rimfire and also incorporates the 1867 patent (64701) of Thomas Poultry (the U.S. agent for Mont Storm). It is the one submitted to the New York State Board of officers in 1867. The lower example is .50/70 CF caliber.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Mont Storm x2 closed breech lo.jpg  

    Mont Storm x2 open breech lo.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter2 View Post
    While the chamber-loading Mont Storm was percussion, there was also a metallic cartridge version of this trapdoor.
    Waiting for your book on these!
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Type in the 3rd line of post #14 and you can read the Courts deliberations/decision.
    US Patent details are also on line by quoting the number and year.
    For British small-arms patents, 7 volumes + index from 1855-1930, Mowbray Publishers had nicely bound reprints - maybe still do?

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    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Ref. The Spanish Berdan conversion...
    I have Two, fair to GC, with Belgian proofing (Liege)...so conversion work
    Probably all done there...
    Nagant was Remington's Agent for Europe.
    When Nagant formed part of the
    SINDACAT which established FN, in 1889, the Remington connection remained (and so Browning's designs
    were produced in US by Remington.

    Doc AV.

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    Thank you sir!

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    Let's not forget the Snider "trapdoor" (hinged fore to aft). Tremendous record of service from 1866 to ca. 1900. Users were usually happy with one aspect of its ballistics- the terminal variety. It's interesting how rapidly things were evolving during and post Snider trials. There wasn't really another serious metallic cartridge entrant in the Snider contest but in the following contests that led to the Martini there were dozens- including a metallic cartridge derivative of the Mont-Storm.

    Ruprecht
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSCN4384.jpg  

    DSCN4440small.jpg  


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    Them side flapping guns could be categorized as trapdoors as well.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Three Krnkas.jpg  

    Krnka Cartridges 3.jpg  

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by staffy View Post
    Didn't the US Govt have to pay Berdan for patent infringements relating to the Trapdoor "extractor ejector device, Patent 88,436" incorporated in his Russian gun and used in the Springfield 1868 guns onwards. A reasonable royalty was to be paid - Settled at US$95,004.36.
    US Supreme Court - US v Berdan MFG Co (1894) - no 128 - Argued:Decided:March 4 1895.
    Would be interested to learn of any action involving the Allin conversions and Berdan's design regarding patents.
    Poor old Hiram was deceased almost 2 years by the time the case was decided.
    "No Anchovies? You got the wrong man, I spell my name Danger!" (Click)

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    What about the Hall and Kammerladers
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20190620_101453 (2).jpg  

    IMGP0045.JPG  

    IMGP0039.JPG  

    IMGP0098.jpg  


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    Kinda trapdoors as well:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hall 1819 & 1843-1aR.jpg  

    Hall 1819 & 1843-3.jpg  

    Hall 1819 & 1843-4.jpg  

    M1851 - 01.jpg  

    M1819 & M1851 - 02.jpg  

    M1819 & M1851 - 05.jpg  

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Sniders and Schneiders( US-Brit. & French resp.) Were Not "Trapdoors" but "Snuff Boxes" or "Tabatiers"...
    A more gentlemanly descriptionfrom a common, vulgar "trapdoor"...to the nether black regions, forsooth?

    Doc AV

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocAV View Post
    a common, vulgar "trapdoor"...
    You misguided antipodes... Ain't nothing vulgar about "trapdoor".
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1889 Rod Bayonet 07.jpg  

    1889 Rod Bayonet 08.jpg  

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Waiting for your book on these!
    There is an article in the current Arms Heritage Magazine (on-line publication) on the Mont Storm metallic cartridge conversion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by staffy View Post
    What about the Hall and Kammerladers
    now there's something you don't see everyday. thanks for posting.
    the one thing all these rifles have in common is their slim graceful designs.

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    I forgot the Spanish Berdan..assembled in Belgium,based on an 1853-ish Enfield, but locks by Azarbayal (
    Basque region) with trapdoor hinge pinned to Barrel ( breech cut out of barrel) via a rotating lock key Very fragile. Cartridge .58 Berdan Centerfire
    === similar dimensions to .577 Snider.
    Also to be confined to nether regions...tended to dismantle itself if fouled and fired ( too soft). Luckily Spain moved to the Remington Roller ( .43 Spanish Remington); I have an 1882 Oviedo example...excellent workmanship.

    Doc AV

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocAV View Post
    (SNIP). Luckily Spain moved to the Remington Roller ( .43 Spanish Remington); I have an 1882 Oviedo example...excellent workmanship.

    Doc AV
    Doc, is your Rolling Block in .43 Spanish or the Reformado version? my 1880 Oviedo remains in .43 Spanish and I have read that they were all supposed to have been converted to the Reformado cartridge.

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    Cloudy my 1882 Oviedo Sp.Remington is in the original 11x57R Remington chamber. The rifle originated in the Spanish Philippines, to Australia, very early on in 1900s. Very good condition...have fired it, and cases not blown out like Reformado chamber.
    Doc AV

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    Many thanks. I suspect a similar origin for mine.

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